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MMI - Working to Rules & Procedures

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DunfordBridge

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Under the old CBI, the precursor to the MMI, under the main question of working to Rules to Procedures, they usually seemed to wheel in this question about working to set standards. I have not done the MMI yet and it could be months away, but I was wondering if the subsidiary question about working to set standards was still asked in the MMI these days.

The questions in the MMI seemed to have changed in recent years. I am sure the question about working accurately on a repetitive task was never one of the original six questions back in 2013 when it first came, from what I can tell.
 
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PickleTree

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I was asked a question similar to this in my MMI in January this year. It was followed up with a question around whether I would go outside of rules and regulations in any scenario.
 

DunfordBridge

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Thanks PickleTree. See the question is still relevant today. I think that second question is to determine if you would ever take short cuts to complete a safety critical task.

I am sometimes puzzled about the 'set standards' question, especially if you have described a situation where you have followed the guidance in a railway rule book. It is as if they are asking you for a second example if your first example was not quite strong enough.
 

Anthony R

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Thanks PickleTree. See the question is still relevant today. I think that second question is to determine if you would ever take short cuts to complete a safety critical task.

I am sometimes puzzled about the 'set standards' question, especially if you have described a situation where you have followed the guidance in a railway rule book. It is as if they are asking you for a second example if your first example was not quite strong enough.
Hey Dunford, you have raised an interetsing question here for me. The question:

"Do you forsee a situation where you would deviate from procedure"

How did you answer that if I may ask? I come from aviation, and as far as i see it, 99.99% of the time absolutely not, procedures are the golden standard of safety. However, I know and have seen that on very very very very rare occasions the procedure has been wrong or not been relevant to a highly unusual new set of circumstances and as a result deviation from the standard procedures have saved lives and been the correct call. I doubt an interviewer would appreciate that part however, I am concerned that question requires a flat out NO rather than a answer based in the real world and allowance for the fact there are circumstances man kind has not forseen. However rare, circumstances that may call for it. and there are examples in aviation that prove that.

Thanks a lot

I was asked a question similar to this in my MMI in January this year. It was followed up with a question around whether I would go outside of rules and regulations in any scenario.
Sorry I think my question was more directed at pickle as he seemed to be the one who got that question. My apologies.
 
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Hey Dunford, you have raised an interetsing question here for me. The question:

"Do you forsee a situation where you would deviate from procedure"

How did you answer that if I may ask? I come from aviation, and as far as i see it, 99.99% of the time absolutely not, procedures are the golden standard of safety. However, I know and have seen that on very very very very rare occasions the procedure has been wrong or not been relevant to a highly unusual new set of circumstances and as a result deviation from the standard procedures have saved lives and been the correct call. I doubt an interviewer would appreciate that part however, I am concerned that question requires a flat out NO rather than a answer based in the real world and allowance for the fact there are circumstances man kind has not forseen. However rare, circumstances that may call for it. and there are examples in aviation that prove that.

Thanks a lot


Sorry I think my question was more directed at pickle as he seemed to be the one who got that question. My apologies.
Hi Anthony

If, in your professional opinion, you can justify deviation of a standard operating procedure in order to ensure a safe outcome then I can't see how that can be argued.

Cheers
 

TheGoldfish

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Hi Anthony

If, in your professional opinion, you can justify deviation of a standard operating procedure in order to ensure a safe outcome then I can't see how that can be argued.

Cheers
the railway seems to live and die by the rule book ... if you act outside the rules even if for the best and still someone gets hurt I’d think you’d be in a world of trouble.... the only caveat I’ve noticed is that if your in a situation which is not covered by rules and feel that you must act then you should do so as safely as possible using your experience and training for the best possible outcome. ?
 

ComUtoR

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Don't forget there is a difference between Rules, Policies, Procedures, and Standards.
 

Seehof

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I once had to do a shunt move at a busy junction station. I asked the signaller if I could draw up in the platform to the starting signal to be ready to move to which he replies “Yes”. As I am as at the signal a train started coming towards me and it was obvious it was coming into my platform. I changed ends quickly and drove it back to the buffer stops. The matter was officially reported. The DTM said had I put the train into reverse and reversed it he would have supported that action even though you are only allowed to drive a train from the leading cab. The error was Network Rail’s for forgetting about my shunt which I had previously informed them what was required.

There is also the Rules Question about being stopped at a red signal in a tunnel when you are trying to move out of the tunnel as quickly as possible as the conductor has reported a small fire.
Answer is - ignore the Rule and proceed past the signal and out of the tunnel ASAP. Do not waste time asking signaller’s permission.
 

Anthony R

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Hi guys, many thanks for your replies. Very helpful and thinking about it and reading your replies it has helped me come to a clear response on the question. I think.
 

Stigy

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I once had to do a shunt move at a busy junction station. I asked the signaller if I could draw up in the platform to the starting signal to be ready to move to which he replies “Yes”.
I’m not sure how long ago this was so I appreciate things change with the times and post-incident etc, but I’d never accept just a “yes” in reply to a safety critical message and would expect the signaller to give me more. If he didn’t, I’d follow it up with confirmation.

There is also the Rules Question about being stopped at a red signal in a tunnel when you are trying to move out of the tunnel as quickly as possible as the conductor has reported a small fire.
Answer is - ignore the Rule and proceed past the signal and out of the tunnel ASAP. Do not waste time asking signaller’s permission.
This question was posed during my training and we never got a definitive answer. The general consensus was that if you’d be a danger to other trains by SPAD’ing the red (if there’s a junction for example) it would be safer to call the signaller and request emergency authority to pass the signal at danger. If you have a clear section (in as much as you can see the line is clear enough) and no junction I guess it’s down to if you can justify your actions. If it’s a small fire, I can’t see an issue with calling the signaller quickly anyway, as it’ll literally take seconds.
 
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Seehof

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Regarding the platform incident the conversation started with the move I needed to do and once confirmation was received and acknowledged by me I then asked separately to move up which the signaller gave definite permission for and I repeated. It was confirmed by my DTM that the voice recordings proved this - all dialogue had been correct - the signaller admitted that he had made a mistake - how Network Rail handled that further I do not know.
Mistakes happen - every driver will tell you that with signaller conversations recorded and the fact the train’s data can be downloaded, make sure you do everything correctly. Reminds me of the picture, (was it in Rail Magazine?) taken from a foot bridge of a driver reading the paper!!
 

DunfordBridge

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Don't forget there is a difference between Rules, Policies, Procedures, and Standards.

This is quite intriguing, can I persuade you to elaborate? I know you have certain company specific policies, for example, a drugs and alcohol policy, in addition to the nationwide industry rule book.

Regarding the platform incident the conversation started with the move I needed to do and once confirmation was received and acknowledged by me I then asked separately to move up which the signaller gave definite permission for and I repeated. It was confirmed by my DTM that the voice recordings proved this - all dialogue had been correct - the signaller admitted that he had made a mistake - how Network Rail handled that further I do not know.
Mistakes happen - every driver will tell you that with signaller conversations recorded and the fact the train’s data can be downloaded, make sure you do everything correctly. Reminds me of the picture, (was it in Rail Magazine?) taken from a foot bridge of a driver reading the paper!!

All very interesting content on this thread.
 

ComUtoR

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This is quite intriguing, can I persuade you to elaborate? I know you have certain company specific policies, for example, a drugs and alcohol policy, in addition to the nationwide industry rule book.

Rules : Pretty straightforward. They are a rather strict set of rules laid out and tend to be absolutes, especially on the Railway. Breaking them tends to have serious consequences.

Policies : Company specific and come in all flavours. The Drugs and Alcohol policy is a good example. Policies exist because rules tend not to be a one size fits all and often do not cater for every situation. Companies need policies to provide employees with more specific advice and guidelines on how to apply or adhere to the "rules" Policies also tend to work both ways. The company agrees to act within their policy at all times. This gives a fair approach for all. They will often state what the specific consequences are too. I would say that some policies are a bit more flexible. Not specifically allowed to be broken but a company can use them to have a more flexible approach. From the other thread.. The Rules state a Driver must wear a watch and my TOCs policy is that you can wear your own and can use a smart watch but it must be in airplane mode.

Procedures : A railway example would be coupling. We have a set procedure on how to couple each unit. Each step must be done in a set order to ensure that the units are coupled correctly. Not often broken and tbh the procedures are designed in such a way that if you deviate then you may cause an issue or it wouldn't be safe. Could they be broken.. Here's where you need to start using your head a little. Our coupling procedure has a list of items that much be checked in order to confirm the unit has been coupled correctly. Nowhere does it say which order you need to do that in and sometimes there are places where you can't check everything or follow the procedure by the letter. So you would need to make a decision on how to work safely and still achieve the same goal but still work within the rules. It's a difficult balance tbh. Some procedures are more flexible than others. If something went wrong, you really need to justify your actions. A "disiplinary procedure" is an example of one that would need to be strictly adhered to.

Standards : Come in many different flavours and would depend on what is being discussed. As a Driver I must meet a certain standard to maintain my competence. This is done by various assessment methods. There is a level I must achieve to keep my licence. "Standards" generally mean the level of quality expected. I used to do audits. You had to achieve a minimum 80% to pass. There is certainly going to be the more tangible "standards"; such as pass marks but you also have things like "uniform standards" I need to ensure that I come to work clean and tidy and meet the expected uniform standard. The railway also has "group standards" which is a whole different ballgame.

So I would say that they are all very intergrated and work alongside each other but very different in how each is applied, how flexible they are, and the consequences when they are not met.

Hope that helps.
 
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DunfordBridge

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Rules : Pretty straightforward. They are a rather strict set of rules laid out and tend to be absolutes, especially on the Railway. Breaking them tends to have serious consequences.

Policies : Company specific and come in all flavours. The Drugs and Alcohol policy is a good example. Policies exist because rules tend not to be a one size fits all and often do not cater for every situation. Companies need policies to provide employees with more specific advice and guidelines on how to apply or adhere to the "rules" Policies also tend to work both ways. The company agrees to act within their policy at all times. This gives a fair approach for all. They will often state what the specific consequences are too. I would say that some policies are a bit more flexible. Not specifically allowed to be broken but a company can use them to have a more flexible approach. From the other thread.. The Rules state a Driver must wear a watch and my TOCs policy is that you can wear your own and can use a smart watch but it must be in airplane mode.

Procedures : A railway example would be coupling. We have a set procedure on how to couple each unit. Each step must be done in a set order to ensure that the units are coupled correctly. Not often broken and tbh the procedures are designed in such a way that if you deviate then you may cause an issue or it woun't be safe. Could they be broken.. Here's where you need to start using your head a little. Our coupling procedure has a list of items that much be checked in order to confirm the unit has been coupled correctly. Nowhere does it say which order you need to do that in and sometimes there are places where you can't check everything or follow the procedure by the letter. So you would need to make a decision on how to work safely and still achieve the same goal but still work within the rules. It's a difficult balance tbh. Some procedures are more flexible than others. If something went wrong, you really need to justify your actions. A "disiplinary procedure" is an example of one that would need to be strictly adhered to.

Standards : Come in many different flavours and would depend on what is being discussed. As a Driver I must meet a certain standard to maintain my competence. This is done by various assessment methods. There is a level I must achieve to keep my licence. "Standards" generally mean the level of quality expected. I used to do audits. You had to achieve a minimum 80% to pass. There is certainly going to be the more tangible "standards"; such as pass marks but you also have things like "uniform standards" I need to ensure that I come to work clean and tidy and meet the expected uniform standard. The railway also has "group standards" which is a whole different ballgame.

So I would say that they are all very intergrated and work alongside each other but very different in how each is applied, how flexible they are, and the consequences when they are not met.

Hope that helps.

That helps immensely. I really could not have put it better myself.
 
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