MML Electrification updates

Nicholas Lewis

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Given the level of prevarication and ambivalence to electrification we've seen in recent years, it would have been a much stronger message if accompanied with a concrete example of where Network Rail is being given the green light to go ahead.
Yes but the fact NR are front running industry engagement over MML it suggest this will be priority one for large schemes.
 
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Killingworth

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Many straws clearly in the wind. Met a chap today who said he was checking access for a job to de-soot Bradway Tunnel. It hasn't seen regular steam hauled trains for over 50 years!

Network Rail spent £11m on the tunnel as recently as 2008, and at the time were giving the impression it would make it electrification ready. I can't find that anywhere in writing. They said, "Our engineers have worked tirelessly to not only renew and improve the lining of the tunnel but also to completely replace the track. Combining the works like this means that passengers will have a safe and reliable railway for many years to come. It will reduce the need for intrusive maintenance and the track works should provide passengers with a smoother ride." That work required the line to be closed for almost 3 months.

Do diesel exhausts produce enough soot to need cleaning so soon? Possibly preparation to be able to examine clean brickwork more closely before the real electrification work starts.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Plenty of diesels though - and yes they chuck out plenty of soot.
It is basically burning a hydrocarbon. Unless you get 100% of those HCs reacting with oxygen 100% efficiently ( you never do even if you are NASA) there will always be carbon/soot produced. I would argue that in a tunnel - by definition- you will never have 100% oxygen burn efficiency.
 

hwl

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It is basically burning a hydrocarbon. Unless you get 100% of those HCs reacting with oxygen 100% efficiently ( you never do even if you are NASA) there will always be carbon/soot produced. I would argue that in a tunnel - by definition- you will never have 100% oxygen burn efficiency.
Do not forget about the lube oil either it doesn't burn as well as most fuel components.
A lot of the partial combusted HC/ PM materials in the exhaust is due the the presence of certain fuel components e.g. Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAH) that don't burn well/cleanly. Getting rid of those (at the refinery) makes a noticeable difference.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Do not forget about the lube oil either it doesn't burn as well as most fuel components.
A lot of the partial combusted HC/ PM materials in the exhaust is due the the presence of certain fuel components e.g. Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAH) that don't burn well/cleanly. Getting rid of those (at the refinery) makes a noticeable difference.
Absolutely. I forgot about lube oil thanks.
 
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As has been stated earlier, one of the problems which will be faced on the old North Midland between Derby and Tapton Junction is that many structures are listed as they are still as designed by George Stephenson back in the 1830s; the A6 bridge at Belper and the adjoining bridge over the Derwent adjacent to the River Gardens were highlighted in the Modern Railways article as being an area of particular concern, but I didn't think it said that it had got as far as Network Rail hoping they'd get away with demolition

Looking at these structures, clearances seem much greater than, say, through the Ray Street Gridiron on the Widened Lines, so is there any realistic chance of Network Rail getting back to the electrical clearances British Rail enjoyed?
 

hwl

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so is there any realistic chance of Network Rail getting back to the electrical clearances British Rail enjoyed?
I'd say almost certain, the reality will be some what nuanced and condition specific e.g. most but not all of the time, so also expect more special paint and surge protector (reduces clearance from lightning strike assumption to OHLE with problem voltage assumption) deployment

So'ton Uni have been very busy zapping things in the lab for a few years with some interesting results.

I mean who knew 1mm per kV was a good back of the envelope guide ;)

Major £££ implications
 

themiller

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I'd say almost certain, the reality will be some what nuanced and condition specific e.g. most but not all of the time, so also expect more special paint and surge protector (reduces clearance from lightning strike assumption to OHLE with problem voltage assumption) deployment

So'ton Uni have been very busy zapping things in the lab for a few years with some interesting results.

I mean who knew 1mm per kV was a good back of the envelope guide ;)

Major £££ implications
But you also need to take into account external factors such as birds if only for the adverse publicity when a child sees a pigeon explode as happened at York all those years ago under the footbridge. See also: https://eandt.theiet.org/content/ar...tm_content=E&T News - Members&utm_term=736706
 

ABB125

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I mean who knew 1mm per kV was a good back of the envelope guide ;)
I'm guessing that's what Southampton have discovered, which just happened to also be BR's rule of thumb?

Another thought: who was responsible for the decision to not seek derogation from the European standards/make the standards more stringent/whatever happened? If it's discovered that there was no need to change/un-derogate the standards, will they be sent a large bill by the government for the additional costs incurred? Not something I'd want to receive in the post... :D
 

edwin_m

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But you also need to take into account external factors such as birds if only for the adverse publicity when a child sees a pigeon explode as happened at York all those years ago under the footbridge. See also: https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2021/07/poorly-designed-power-lines-killing-globally-threatened-birds-of-prey/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_campaign=New EandT News - Automation FINAL - MEMBER&utm_medium=Newsletters - E&T News&utm_content=E&T News - Members&utm_term=736706
That would probably only be an issue in stations.
Another thought: who was responsible for the decision to not seek derogation from the European standards/make the standards more stringent/whatever happened? If it's discovered that there was no need to change/un-derogate the standards, will they be sent a large bill by the government for the additional costs incurred? Not something I'd want to receive in the post... :D
I have the impression someone dropped the ball, somewhere in the plethora of bodies at the UK government level.
 

InOban

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AIRC it was one of many decisions blamed on the EU (we can't do it because of EU rules) but which were quite within our power.
 

Class 170101

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I'd say almost certain, the reality will be some what nuanced and condition specific e.g. most but not all of the time, so also expect more special paint and surge protector (reduces clearance from lightning strike assumption to OHLE with problem voltage assumption) deployment

So'ton Uni have been very busy zapping things in the lab for a few years with some interesting results.

I mean who knew 1mm per kV was a good back of the envelope guide ;)

Major £££ implications

If new standards have to be met for new stuff how does NR mitigate what is already there to meet all these new standards as practicably as possible?
 

snowball

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If new standards have to be met for new stuff how does NR mitigate what is already there to meet all these new standards as practicably as possible?
They don't have to. It's a recognised principle that new standards apply to new works. Just like you can run old diesels that don't meet the emissions standards that would be applied to new ones.

It would be possible to introduce a law that has to be applied retrospectively to old installations, but it doesn't often happen.
 

edwin_m

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If new standards have to be met for new stuff how does NR mitigate what is already there to meet all these new standards as practicably as possible?
The general principle is that existing infrastructure doesn't have to be brought up to new standards unless modified for other reasons. There are some exceptions, such as retrofitting of TPWS, and there is plenty of scope for argument when parts of an existing facility are being re-built but other parts are not being touched.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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I understand that, but the risk doesn't just go away just because of Grandfather rights.
The same hazard (25kv) has always been present and risk control measures have been in place from when WCML was electrified. However, as every year goes by societal acceptance of risk exposure diminishes so standards get tightened often in response to an accident. Furthermore, we now live in a society where everyone gets sued and the constant threat of some action action against individuals rather than corporate entities puts further pressure on acceptable levels of risk exposure all leading to ever tightening of standards.

Whats for sure is once a standard is tightened its almost impossible to dial it back but at least its provoked some innovate responses to deal with them.
 

Brissle Girl

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The same hazard (25kv) has always been present and risk control measures have been in place from when WCML was electrified. However, as every year goes by societal acceptance of risk exposure diminishes so standards get tightened often in response to an accident. Furthermore, we now live in a society where everyone gets sued and the constant threat of some action action against individuals rather than corporate entities puts further pressure on acceptable levels of risk exposure all leading to ever tightening of standards.

Whats for sure is once a standard is tightened its almost impossible to dial it back but at least its provoked some innovate responses to deal with them.
A really good example of this is the evolution of safety on Mk 3 doors, from the original design, through the introduction of central locking, and latterly the fact that having windows that can open has become an unacceptable risk. At the risk of digressing, the contrast of the standards required of the rail industry with those of the motorway network, where hard shoulders are now routinely being abolished, and the govt spins the safety figures to try and prove that they are safer, is stark.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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A really good example of this is the evolution of safety on Mk 3 doors, from the original design, through the introduction of central locking, and latterly the fact that having windows that can open has become an unacceptable risk. At the risk of digressing, the contrast of the standards required of the rail industry with those of the motorway network, where hard shoulders are now routinely being abolished, and the govt spins the safety figures to try and prove that they are safer, is stark.
Very good observation on motorways but don't forget they are SMART 8-)
 

Brissle Girl

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Interesting new Network Rail video suggesting that steel girder bridges may be insulated by special paint to avoid rebuilding. Not a terribly new idea but good to see the video explanation.
Given it's around four years now since the Interchange Bridge was done, it's disappointing that the innovation doesn't appear to have resulted yet in any meaningful demonstration of reduced costs for future projects.
 

swt_passenger

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takno

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Given it's around four years now since the Interchange Bridge was done, it's disappointing that the innovation doesn't appear to have resulted yet in any meaningful demonstration of reduced costs for future projects.
What would you be expecting in terms of a demonstration? The first 2-3 years on England were pretty much a complete hiatus on electrification anyway. On restarting a whole range of things should reduce costs including experience gained, not using the magic electrification train, not building for 140mph, and having done the civils to the newer standards to start with.

From the outside all that's likely to be visible is a somewhat smaller number of tens of millions of pounds for each project. Given that the new financial arrangements for rail investment mean less announcements and less explicit upfront costing of grand designs, it's likely that even that gain will be all-but invisible.
 

Flying Phil

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The Braybrooke Supply site is now having a lot of work done with accommodation units installed, a road access and quite a few workers on site.
DSC00811s.jpg
 

Flying Phil

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Yes it is taken from the small brick overbridge over the MML, which is a farm track crossing - looking North East....ish.
 

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