So if that's true, a 9 car 802 will have a peak power of 3500kW available on diesel and a continuous (or 1 hour) of 6000kW under wires, assuming that the transformers are rated for that. That's a world of difference in performance terms so failing to mention the far superior power of the motors is misleading.
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MML Electrification: progress updates
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that's the power required under the wires for 140mph operation, never intended to do that speed on diesel. 810 is being designed for 125mph operation on both electric and diesel with similar performance from either mode. With the diesel gensets also being required to provide ancilliaries and hotel load it will always be behind electric, which will be able to supply the ancillaries and hotel load over and above the traction load, and be able to run the motors "hot" for a short duration power boost.
I did say "available" which in a description about that trains would be appropriate. My point was that many descriptions of diesel-electric and bi-mode trains seem to soley rest on the power of the diesel engine, often describing the engine as the 'prime mover'. That is fine for a diesel electric train as all power comes from the diesel engine (including as you say, all non-traction requirements). For a bi-mode it should be argued that the primary mode is electric, and the total traction power is the sum of all the motor power ratings. The diesel mode is a secondary mode limited by the diesel engine's capabilities.
Back to the 810s, Wikipedia gives each of the diesel engines a rating of 735kW, - a total of just under 3000kW, and given that a 5-car consist has just two motor cars, that means 8 330kW motors total 2640kW, - less than the four gensets, so there is little difference between the two modes, - most unusual for bi-modes.
it's to give it similar performance on diesel as electric. Similarly the Flirt has 500kW traction motors and the diesel power pack has the diesel engines rated at 560kW- more than enough for the traction load and anciliaries and hotel power. I'd go as far to suggest those motors could be run slightly warm for short periods on diesel too, bit drifting off topic. The 810 will be fit for purpose, performance wise, either mode.
Richard Scott
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Don't forget there will be generating losses so that 560kW will be not much more than 500kW by the time it gets to the motors and the ancillaries plus hotel power load will mean unlikely 500kW will ever get to motors on diesel.
Interested by the comparison of electric and diesel
What is the maximum line speed between Leicester and Kettering? Would the superior acceleration of the electric units make for a quicker journey time on the 810's compared to them running on diesel?
And what difference would it make when it comes to journey times compared to the current fleet?
What is the maximum line speed between Leicester and Kettering? Would the superior acceleration of the electric units make for a quicker journey time on the 810's compared to them running on diesel?
And what difference would it make when it comes to journey times compared to the current fleet?
There are, IIRC, stretches of 110mph, dropping to 85mph through the MH curves (the Little and Great Bowdens). The 110 limit will be because of signalling but may also be because of curvature in places.
Electric (supply and) traction will always have the edge, even with 80x's.
Electrification will probably make more difference South of Leicester because of the three summits to be climbed (Sharnbrook, Desborough and Kibworth), whereas the terrain is flatter to the North until Trent.
WAO
Electric (supply and) traction will always have the edge, even with 80x's.
Electrification will probably make more difference South of Leicester because of the three summits to be climbed (Sharnbrook, Desborough and Kibworth), whereas the terrain is flatter to the North until Trent.
WAO
strictly speaking, for rolling stock that meets the HST speed category. Which includes the 222s and 810s.
InTheEastMids
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yes, the 222s are noticeably quicker up the hills than the 2+8 HSTs.
Anyone got any idea how much an 810 on electric might pull ahead? (edit - ahead of a 222)
Once electrification is complete to Wigston, is Leicester in 1h a realistic ambition? (Believe it's currently timed at 1h 3mins)
59CosG95
Established Member
I wonder if an increase to 125mph will be catered for if signal spacings change...
Yes, I was trying to say that with 'HST differential', apologies!
A reminder that this thread should be confined to discussing MML Electrification updates.
If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread in the appropriate forum section.
If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread in the appropriate forum section.
You could do it in one hour non stop now. What stops it is catching up other trains or getting restrictive signals.
which is usually the same thing!
Usually isn't always. Sometimes a junction is protected or a signaller has been slow or gone off for a cuppa etc. Or possibly protecting pway. Although I did forget to mention it also depends on how many emergency and temporary speed restrictions are out there. But ok let me put it another way. If Leicester to London or London to Leicester trains are able to hit all permissable line speeds, an hour is possible... Just. But we both are aware I'm sure , but other forum users won't necessarily be. Edit to add level crossings.
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InTheEastMids
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Thanks, I guess what I meant is that whether the additional performance of an 810 might allow a regular service to be reliably timetabled at a headline 1h.
I'm expecting the answer to be no for the reasons you say, and these services are dictated by non-EMR factors like Thameslink Core.
So perhaps it's worth rephrasing the question in terms of whether EMR are expecting any marginal gains from electric traction performance or accompanying infra improvements.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Well mods have already warned the thread is drifting OT but that is why iirc TPU was paused and then unpaused. Electrification will give marginal improvements - acceleration, track wear, CO2 etc. But infrastructure improvements really make a huge difference.
The secret of going fast is not to go slow!!
We all gain from less diesel emissions.
59CosG95
Established Member
SPL POWERLINES UK on LinkedIn: SPL Powerlines UK have have just completed two weekends of blockades on…
SPL Powerlines UK have have just completed two weekends of blockades on KO1a, as part of the Midland Mainline electrification. The volume of work achieved…
Big lot of stats from the weekend just gone - I believe all the boosters from Borehamwood to Luton are disconnected now. It also says that cross-track feeds and masts were installed at Radlett...
SPL POWERLINES UK on LinkedIn: SPL Powerlines UK have have just completed two weekends of blockades on…
SPL Powerlines UK have have just completed two weekends of blockades on KO1a, as part of the Midland Mainline electrification. The volume of work achieved…www.linkedin.com
Big lot of stats from the weekend just gone - I believe all the boosters from Borehamwood to Luton are disconnected now. It also says that cross-track feeds and masts were installed at Radlett...
‘Radlett‘ = St Albans to Radlett.
saw plenty of SPL vans knocking around the St Albans area over the weekend. Greggs and Simmons* did a roaring trade no doubt.
* local bakery chain, slightly more bready than sausage rolly than Greggs, but do sandwiches to order.
Simmons are good, especially for cake. And they have cafes for eating in at Welwyn GC and Letchworth GC, both close to the station.
Photo in link clearly the Napsbury site - see my photos in post #5,459 on previous page.SPL POWERLINES UK on LinkedIn: SPL Powerlines UK have have just completed two weekends of blockades on…
SPL Powerlines UK have have just completed two weekends of blockades on KO1a, as part of the Midland Mainline electrification. The volume of work achieved…
Big lot of stats from the weekend just gone - I believe all the boosters from Borehamwood to Luton are disconnected now. It also says that cross-track feeds and masts were installed at Radlett...
InTheEastMids
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Keeping it on topic, I went back and had a quick look at the business case (link below), and as expected it doesn't try to unpick the journey time benefits, which are all measured against a 2016 baseline of fleet and timetable. Most the generalised journey time benefits generally come from the timetable rewrite (doubled Corby services & deletion of InterCity calls south of Kettering)
In minor news, a new foundation has appeared next the footbridge on Braybrooke Road in Market Harborough, I do wonder about the scheduling of projects like this because, from the outside, this type of thing does make it all look a bit random (but I'm sure the contractors know what they're doing).
59CosG95
Established Member
From previous visits, that foundation looks to be filling the gap between the mast immediately north and the mast a little to the south.
Nottingham59
Established Member
Erm, most mast foundations fill the gap between the masts immediately north and immediately south!
Quite a a few fill the gap between the masts immediately west and immediately east - eg out of Paddington - or any other points of the compass! The only excpetions being end of wiring for that piece of track or end of track.Erm, most mast foundations fill the gap between the masts immediately north and immediately south!