MML Electrification updates

GRALISTAIR

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Are you sitting down? I agree with you.

I also don't think Grayling is uneducated. He went to Cambridge and got a 2:1. What he is a politician ;)

Perfectly stated. His 2:1 is in History not STEM - but still highly and well educated. Still a politician though. I really liked Sir Patrick McLoughlin as SoS.
 
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richieb1971

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I think Graylings failures are more to do with geography. London has had upgrades after upgrades after upgrades. Now it has a new railway in the making, new stations like London Bridge and if you go back a few years a total revamp of KX and St Pancras. What has the north gotten in the way of new rolling stock? Even HS2 which is supposed to serve the north won't be ready for another 10+ years. I believe the needs of the north to be of a lesser expense and easily done if the northern constituencies were able to steal some of the funding given to the south east.

This MML project is proof that when you go north priority suddenly becomes non existent. Unless of course you count Scotland, which has its own epicenter of commerce and trade and a government which seems to put railways at little bit higher on agendas.
 

A0wen

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I think Graylings failures are more to do with geography. London has had upgrades after upgrades after upgrades. Now it has a new railway in the making, new stations like London Bridge and if you go back a few years a total revamp of KX and St Pancras. What has the north gotten in the way of new rolling stock? Even HS2 which is supposed to serve the north won't be ready for another 10+ years. I believe the needs of the north to be of a lesser expense and easily done if the northern constituencies were able to steal some of the funding given to the south east.

This MML project is proof that when you go north priority suddenly becomes non existent. Unless of course you count Scotland, which has its own epicenter of commerce and trade and a government which seems to put railways at little bit higher on agendas.

Not this again - the "north" has received the 185s and 350/4s.

There is alot of electrification going on in the Manchester area which will result in the replacement of DMUs with EMUs.

The Merseyrail network is going to get new stock to replace the 507s / 508s - which are being replaced at the same time as similar stock in the south (313s / 315s).

It should also be remembered that when the "north" was getting new DMUs in the mid - late 80s many lines in the south / south east were running around with 20 year old stock, which then went on to do a further 10-20 years before being replaced.
 

AM9

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Not this again - the "north" has received the 185s and 350/4s.

There is alot of electrification going on in the Manchester area which will result in the replacement of DMUs with EMUs.

The Merseyrail network is going to get new stock to replace the 507s / 508s - which are being replaced at the same time as similar stock in the south (313s / 315s).

It should also be remembered that when the "north" was getting new DMUs in the mid - late 80s many lines in the south / south east were running around with 20 year old stock, which then went on to do a further 10-20 years before being replaced.

The Northern chip on shoulder that some suffer from is becoming RUK's own Godwin's law. :)
 

A0wen

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The Northern chip on shoulder that some suffer from is becoming RUK's own Godwin's law. :)

Quite - what some posters seem incapable of accepting is that it is a physical impossibility for all areas to be running brand new stock all of the time. And it ever was thus.

Even after the "modernisation" plan had been completed, there was still some pre-war stock running around (Merseyside 502s) and pre-nationalisation stock (SR EMUs, LNER EMUs, LMS EMUs).
 

SPADTrap

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EMT need a fleet of EMUs for the Corby services - there are several candidates, but the obvious option seems to be the soon-to-be available 379s from the Stansted Express which will be ousted by GA's fleet refresh.
I'd be quite surprised if the 379s leave GA when planned to and not later.
 

A0wen

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I'd be quite surprised if the 379s leave GA when planned to and not later.

2019 is being quoted as the planned leave date. It's unlikely the Corby electrification will be usable in full until the May 2019 timetable change at the earliest, I'd have thought that might work.

It also depends on what stock GA want to release and when - it depends whether they want to release the oldest first, in which case it would be the 317s or smallest fleets first, in which case its either the 360s or 379s.
 

Senex

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Not this again - the "north" has received the 185s and 350/4s.
And the 185s have been totally inadequate for the job from the day they appeared since London-DfT didn't allow four vehicles per unit to be ordered at the start and then wouldn't allow later construction of the additional vehicles. And on significant parts of the TP network they are not allowed to run at DMU speeds—brilliant procurement! As for the 350/4s, outer suburban stock acquired for an inter-city route. Compare with Voyagers for Leeds to Scotland or Pendolinos/Voyagers for Birmingham to Scotland.
There is a lot of electrification going on in the Manchester area which will result in the replacement of DMUs with EMUs.
Just one line actually being done at present, the 25 miles from Manchester to Euxton Jn, some 40 years later than first planned and at a snail's pace. No particularly good timings promised on completion. Stalybridge stopped, ultra-wierd plans rumoured for the continuation to Leeds if it ever gets done at all, no progress on tne other route to Wigan. Liverpool to Manchester done indeed, again some 40 years after it was first planned, but doesn't make as much sense as it would have done if Leeds had been done and somewhat disappointing on the infrastructure side. And the rolling stock provided is the aged non-air-conditioned 319s witn minimal refurbishment.
The Merseyrail network is going to get new stock to replace the 507s / 508s - which are being replaced at the same time as similar stock in the south (313s / 315s).
True.
It should also be remembered that when the "north" was getting new DMUs in the mid - late 80s many lines in the south / south east were running around with 20 year old stock, which then went on to do a further 10-20 years before being replaced.
True, but much of the aged Southern stock was electric, which ages very much better than the diesel rattletraps we've got in the north.
And then, of course, there's the minimalist Manchester "sollution" of the Ordsall Chord (without any promises of the accompanying works at Piccadilly and Oxford Road. Compare the £85 million for that with the billions for Crossrail I, let alone add in Crossrail II. (And compare it against various cross-city links in Europe, the most recent being in Leipzig, a city in many ways very comparable to Manchester.)
 

B&I

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And the 185s have been totally inadequate for the job from the day they appeared since London-DfT didn't allow four vehicles per unit to be ordered at the start and then wouldn't allow later construction of the additional vehicles. And on significant parts of the TP network they are not allowed to run at DMU speeds—brilliant procurement! As for the 350/4s, outer suburban stock acquired for an inter-city route. Compare with Voyagers for Leeds to Scotland or Pendolinos/Voyagers for Birmingham to Scotland.

Just one line actually being done at present, the 25 miles from Manchester to Euxton Jn, some 40 years later than first planned and at a snail's pace. No particularly good timings promised on completion. Stalybridge stopped, ultra-wierd plans rumoured for the continuation to Leeds if it ever gets done at all, no progress on tne other route to Wigan. Liverpool to Manchester done indeed, again some 40 years after it was first planned, but doesn't make as much sense as it would have done if Leeds had been done and somewhat disappointing on the infrastructure side. And the rolling stock provided is the aged non-air-conditioned 319s witn minimal refurbishment.

True.

True, but much of the aged Southern stock was electric, which ages very much better than the diesel rattletraps we've got in the north.
And then, of course, there's the minimalist Manchester "sollution" of the Ordsall Chord (without any promises of the accompanying works at Piccadilly and Oxford Road. Compare the £85 million for that with the billions for Crossrail I, let alone add in Crossrail II. (And compare it against various cross-city links in Europe, the most recent being in Leipzig, a city in many ways very comparable to Manchester.)

Quite. I wonder what percentage of the cost of Crossrail would be equal to ALL infrastructure spending in the north for the past 20 years.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Just one line actually being done at present, the 25 miles from Manchester to Euxton Jn, some 40 years later than first planned and at a snail's pace.

Unfair and untrue - Blackpool to Preston is also being done and is coming on really fast. New signals along entire route to Manchester. Farnworth Tunnel was great planning for the future -not done on the cheap.

Liverpool LS station etc being modernized too.
 

A0wen

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And the 185s have been totally inadequate for the job from the day they appeared since London-DfT didn't allow four vehicles per unit to be ordered at the start and then wouldn't allow later construction of the additional vehicles. And on significant parts of the TP network they are not allowed to run at DMU speeds—brilliant procurement

None of which are the fault of the units - which are decent quality long distance DMUs.

As for the 350/4s, outer suburban stock acquired for an inter-city route. Compare with Voyagers for Leeds to Scotland or Pendolinos/Voyagers for Birmingham to Scotland.

They are 2+2 seated stock. So the only thing you're complaining about is 1/3 2/3 doors rather than doors at each end. That's just plain daft. The 350s are used for various medium distance routes without issue.

Just one line actually being done at present, the 25 miles from Manchester to Euxton Jn, some 40 years later than first planned and at a snail's pace. No particularly good timings promised on completion. Stalybridge stopped, ultra-wierd plans rumoured for the continuation to Leeds if it ever gets done at all, no progress on tne other route to Wigan. Liverpool to Manchester done indeed, again some 40 years after it was first planned, but doesn't make as much sense as it would have done if Leeds had been done and somewhat disappointing on the infrastructure side. And the rolling stock provided is the aged non-air-conditioned 319s witn minimal refurbishment.

The 319s are fit for purpose for upgrading Manchester - Liverpool services. And they are available now, which new stock wouldn't be.

True, but much of the aged Southern stock was electric, which ages very much better than the diesel rattletraps we've got in the north.

Hang on a sec - not a moment ago you were complaining about 20 year old EMUs making their way north, now you're saying it was alright for the south to be using 20 year old EMUs when the Sprinters etc were being rolled out.....

And then, of course, there's the minimalist Manchester "sollution" of the Ordsall Chord (without any promises of the accompanying works at Piccadilly and Oxford Road. Compare the £85 million for that with the billions for Crossrail I, let alone add in Crossrail II. (And compare it against various cross-city links in Europe, the most recent being in Leipzig, a city in many ways very comparable to Manchester.)

London is a city of 10m people, Manchester is 2.5m.

The Central line - the one true 'east to west' line through central London is at capacity - which is what Crossrail will deal with. London has had minimal new rail lines in the last 30 years given the volume of traffic it handles.
 

edwin_m

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I also don't think Grayling is uneducated. He went to Cambridge and got a 2:1. What he is a politician ;)
A 2:1 in History. So he should avoid being compelled to repeat it. ** mutters about arts graduates **

The rest of his Wikipedia page makes pretty grim reading.
 

yorkie

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For further discussion on the suitability (or otherwise!) and credentials of cabinet ministers please use this thread: Credentials & suitability of cabinet ministers :)

For discussion on other matters unrelated to MML Electrification, feel free to create a new thread (if there isn't one already).

If someone else has already gone off-topic, you can copy their quote (Press "Quote" button to generate a quote) and paste it into a new thread (if you are not confident copying & pasting, use the "Insert Quotes" button when posting) and the person you are quoting will automatically be alerted.
 
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Senex

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Deleted in response to request to start a new thread if off the MML topic.
 
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richieb1971

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If I spend a day at Doncaster/Cardiff I see trains that look very grim. They don't look like trains for the free world, they look like trains for poor countries. If you throw in a bad windy day with lots of rain and grim faces it looks communist, not to mention the screeeeeching wheels. Some of these trains have standing passengers as well as they rock like boats coming into the station. I don't see that in the south east.

Grayling has opted for another 25-30 miles of OHLE on the MML. North of here he argues for compromises. Now I don't actually know the ins and outs of how much money is spent on the north, but I can tell from a visibility stand point that in the north "Compromise" has been ongoing for quite a while.
 

jyte

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If you throw in a bad windy day with lots of rain and grim faces it looks communist

oh my god this is the funniest message I've ever seen here

'they look communist' - what? Do they have big mustaches, wear ushanka hats, drink vodka, have a 30 year old membership of the socialist party and the complete works of Marx that they haven't read?!

I need to go lie down - this is incredible
 

DarloRich

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If I spend a day at Doncaster/Cardiff I see trains that look very grim. They don't look like trains for the free world, they look like trains for poor countries. If you throw in a bad windy day with lots of rain and grim faces it looks communist, not to mention the screeeeeching wheels. Some of these trains have standing passengers as well as they rock like boats coming into the station. I don't see that in the south east.

because it is always broad sunlit uplands in the south - it never rains, trains have lots of seats and everyone is gloriously happy!
 

jyte

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because it is always broad sunlit uplands in the south - it never rains, trains have lots of seats and everyone is gloriously happy!
Can confirm. Went out in London last week and only got shouted at three times, 9/10 would recommend.
 

richieb1971

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I thought people knew i have a sense of exaggeration on here by now. On a more serious note id rather have the meridians than bimodes. Let grayling invest the money more wisely elsewhere. Either do it right or not at all.
 

edwin_m

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Happened to catch the BBC East Midlands Today when they had a slot of 2min or so with their political editor on the political stories likely to make the local headlines this year. Electrification was at about number 3, so it is still being regarded as a live issue locally. Even used the adjective "beleaguered" (which I have probably mis-spelt, not being a Cambridge arts graduate) to describe Grayling.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Happened to catch the BBC East Midlands Today when they had a slot of 2min or so with their political editor on the political stories likely to make the local headlines this year. Electrification was at about number 3, so it is still being regarded as a live issue locally.

I am pleased - that is good news. Cancellation was disheartening - even a push as far as Market Harborough by late 2020 would be an improvement I would welcome.
 

Railwaysceptic

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If I spend a day at Doncaster/Cardiff I see trains that look very grim. They don't look like trains for the free world, they look like trains for poor countries. If you throw in a bad windy day with lots of rain and grim faces it looks communist, not to mention the screeeeeching wheels. Some of these trains have standing passengers as well as they rock like boats coming into the station. I don't see that in the south east.

Stand on the platform(s) at Lewisham. You'll hear plenty of screeching.
 

Mutant Lemming

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I don't get why the curtailment was to Corby and not Leicester. Surely it wouldn't have been a relatively vast amount more to electrify to Leicester instead of Corby?
What will the eventual cost be of electrifying a main line to three small Northamptonshire towns ?
 

snowball

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I don't get why the curtailment was to Corby and not Leicester. Surely it wouldn't have been a relatively vast amount more to electrify to Leicester instead of Corby?
What will the eventual cost be of electrifying a main line to three small Northamptonshire towns ?
AFAIK it's not yet definitely confirmed that the line will get bi-modes. Until it is, it would be crazy to electrify to a place where no trains from the south terminate.
 

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