MML Electrification: progress updates

[muddythefish]

Boris Johnson has now promised electrification through to derby

Electrification of Derby's railways back on says Prime Minister

Boris Johnson visited Derbyshire

www.derbytelegraph.co.uk

That article is dated December 2019 - alot has happened since then.

 

[Halifaxlad]

My cat could fly!

 

[Killingworth]

Boris Johnson has now promised electrification through to derby

Electrification of Derby's railways back on says Prime Minister

Boris Johnson visited Derbyshire

www.derbytelegraph.co.uk

Wow, I wondered what had brought that on, but no, it wasn't now, it was 5 months ago. Easily said during an election campaign, but still makes good sense.

He needs reminding of what he said, as often as possible, and beyond Derby all the way to Sheffield, connecting to Doncaster and Leeds.

I'd never been to Sheffield before my employer decided that's where I had to go - over 40 years ago. I soon discovered it was in a passenger rail backwater dating back to the 1830s. That's when George Stephenson's locomotives could not have coped with the gradients encountered on the present 'new road' through Bradway Tunnel. A fairly level spur from Rotherham came in 1838. The city was by-passed in 1840 with the 'old road' running from Derby to Leeds via Chesterfield and Rotherham. The Midland's 'new road' finally came 150 years ago in 1870. If only the Great Central route of 1899 had come 50/60 years earlier, but it didn't! When I arrived I found Sheffield was still pushing for HSTs that I'd got used to when travelling to Cardiff and Bristol. The isolation seems likely to continue with HS2 being on a new spur into Sheffield, if it ever happens!

Midland electrification could be of more benefit to more of us more quickly in the East Midlands than HS2 - and might become a consolation prize for HS2 East being deferred indefinitely!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Midland electrification could be of more benefit to more of us more quickly in the East Midlands than HS2 - and might become a consolation prize for HS2 East being deferred indefinitely!

Yes. The mind boggles. Connecting London and Bedford etc with
Sheffield population > 550,000
Leicester population > 330,000
Derby population > 250,000
Notts population > 305,000
using clean very low CO2 transports seems to be a no-brainer. But DafT cant see it. Weird. Needs a real political will to bulldoze it through.

 

[Mikey C]

The MML does seem to have been a low priority down the years, it even lost its station to Eurostar/HS1, and now finds itself shoved out the back like an embarrassing relative

 

[duffield]

Yes. The mind boggles. Connecting London and Bedford etc with
Sheffield population > 550,000
Leicester population > 330,000
Derby population > 250,000
Notts population > 305,000
using clean very low CO2 transports seems to be a no-brainer. But DafT cant see it. Weird. Needs a real political will to bulldoze it through.

I think that basically when GWR electrification went way off course, they used it as an *excuse* to say "Oh no, we just can't do electrification in this country, we give up!".

 

[themiller]

Boris Johnson has now promised electrification through to derby

Electrification of Derby's railways back on says Prime Minister

Boris Johnson visited Derbyshire

www.derbytelegraph.co.uk

The date at the top of the article is 20th December 2019!

 

[cle]

The MML does seem to have been a low priority down the years, it even lost its station to Eurostar/HS1, and now finds itself shoved out the back like an embarrassing relative

The platforms is pretty poor, but I'd say that the past 5 years are making amends. The 125 project, the wires to Corby/MH and additional semi-fasts, Derby untangling - and more four tracking. Hopefully this will continue (Leicester, Dore even might help) - as it's a very important line, and could be further used (Leeds and Manchester services on from Sheffield, or more XC potential)

Under BR, the service was horrendous. 2-3tph tops, into an under-utilized, fume-y, desolate station. With a beautiful, but neglected facade. Nostalgia is a funny thing.

One other point I would say is that the phenomenal success of Thameslink (plus boom of Luton Airport) gobbled up a lot of potential slots.

 

[59CosG95]

The date at the top of the article is 20th December 2019!

Not quite: the initial date of publishing was 5th December 2019 (1 week prior to the election), and it was updated on the 20th of December.

 

[Mikey C]

The platforms is pretty poor, but I'd say that the past 5 years are making amends. The 125 project, the wires to Corby/MH and additional semi-fasts, Derby untangling - and more four tracking. Hopefully this will continue (Leicester, Dore even might help) - as it's a very important line, and could be further used (Leeds and Manchester services on from Sheffield, or more XC potential)

Under BR, the service was horrendous. 2-3tph tops, into an under-utilized, fume-y, desolate station. With a beautiful, but neglected facade. Nostalgia is a funny thing.

One other point I would say is that the phenomenal success of Thameslink (plus boom of Luton Airport) gobbled up a lot of potential slots.

Yes there are much needed improvement happening, but wiring to Corby does feel a bit akin to wiring the GW to Newbury but not the mainline past Reading, or wiring the WCML to Northampton, but not wiring the mainline past Rugby! Fine for commuter traffic but frustratingly missing out the major cities on the route...

 

[Senex]

Yes there are much needed improvement happening, but wiring to Corby does feel a bit akin to wiring the GW to Newbury but not the mainline past Reading, or wiring the WCML to Northampton, but not wiring the mainline past Rugby! Fine for commuter traffic but frustratingly missing out the major cities on the route...

But the only thing a Westminster government and its civil servants is interested in is the commuter traffic — and then only when it's London's.

 

[Killingworth]

The platforms is pretty poor, but I'd say that the past 5 years are making amends. The 125 project, the wires to Corby/MH and additional semi-fasts, Derby untangling - and more four tracking. Hopefully this will continue (Leicester, Dore even might help) - as it's a very important line, and could be further used (Leeds and Manchester services on from Sheffield, or more XC potential)

Under BR, the service was horrendous. 2-3tph tops, into an under-utilized, fume-y, desolate station. With a beautiful, but neglected facade. Nostalgia is a funny thing.

One other point I would say is that the phenomenal success of Thameslink (plus boom of Luton Airport) gobbled up a lot of potential slots.

The phenomenal success of Thameslink proves that investment in rail can generate new business beyond expectations, as has the M25 with roads.

All's well for Manchester - Sheffield electrification through the Hope Valley, New footbridges are being built at Hathersage and Dore to allow for it. Slightly more to do with Totley, Cowburn and Disley tunnels though.

Let's get MML electrified to Leicester first. That's a big enough ask at present

 

[cle]

Corby is at least the end of a service (soon to be two tph) - Leicester doesn't add anything non-symbolic, as it's not a terminus - nor do we meet wires there. That would be Doncaster! But perhaps an hourly electric stopper to Leicester would be useful, if it had another platform as planned.

Derby or Nottingham are better, as more services are removed from diesel/bi entirely. From there, Sheffield on both routes (and Doncaster) are obvious next moves. Derby to Birmingham after that.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Corby is at least the end of a service (soon to be two tph) - Leicester doesn't add anything non-symbolic, as it's not a terminus - nor do we meet wires there. That would be Doncaster! But perhaps an hourly electric stopper to Leicester would be useful, if it had another platform as planned.

Derby or Nottingham are better, as more services are removed from diesel/bi entirely. From there, Sheffield on both routes (and Doncaster) are obvious next moves. Derby to Birmingham after that.

I do agree that Nottingham and/or Derby would be better but Leicester is also vital for doing F2N for freight in stages too.

 

[Killingworth]

I do agree that Nottingham and/or Derby would be better but Leicester is also vital for doing F2N for freight in stages too.

Leicester is desired as a step along the way and every step is in the right direction. Every opportunity needs to be grabbed when spotted. All the way if possible, but as much as offers. Derby to meet up with railway works and a possible link to West Coast and Birmingham.

 

[59CosG95]

Leicester is desired as a step along the way and every step is in the right direction. Every opportunity needs to be grabbed when spotted. All the way if possible, but as much as offers. Derby to meet up with railway works and a possible link to West Coast and Birmingham.

Wiring Leicester would certainly make more of a case for wiring the East-West corridor to Nuneaton, along with the potential to extend wires to Birmingham via Coleshill. Then of course they could be extended east to Peterborough and East Anglia...

 

[cle]

It's a tragic state of electrification affairs that we are forgiving of these ludicrous 'get to the next station' incrementation extensions. How our standards have plummeted. Begging for Bedwyn, could be the memoir.

Leicester is nothing, in isolation. Yes it's a junction, but diesel in each direction - and no MML trains terminate there. So the case must be pitiful.

F2N needs to hit Nuneation, this does nothing for that. And yes the WCML is wired, but are any freight end points? Not to mention the whole route across to Felixstowe. Leicester to Wigston is probably 0.5% of the route...

 

[Bald Rick]

It's a tragic state of electrification affairs that we are forgiving of these ludicrous 'get to the next station' incrementation extensions. How our standards have plummeted. Begging for Bedwyn, could be the memoir.

Leicester is nothing, in isolation. Yes it's a junction, but diesel in each direction - and no MML trains terminate there. So the case must be pitiful.

F2N needs to hit Nuneation, this does nothing for that. And yes the WCML is wired, but are any freight end points? Not to mention the whole route across to Felixstowe. Leicester to Wigston is probably 0.5% of the route...

In principle you are right - Market Harboro’ was only on the cards because of the feeder station issue. The next stage for the MML will be to at least Nottingham, and probably Sheffield as well (via Derby, obviously).

But to make a small correction Wigston - Leicester is around 2 % of Felixstowe - Nuneaton; Leicester to Syston is another 3%, and of course 10% of F2N is already electrified

 

[Halifaxlad]

The next stage for the MML will be to at least Nottingham, and probably Sheffield as well (via Derby, obviously).

Don't forget HS2 are supposed to be wiring the line from Clay Cross to Sheffield via Chesterfield!

 

[Killingworth]

Don't forget HS2 are supposed to be wiring the line from Clay Cross to Sheffield via Chesterfield!

For now let's discount that as the earliest it may arrive is probably 2035.

 

[cle]

In principle you are right - Market Harboro’ was only on the cards because of the feeder station issue. The next stage for the MML will be to at least Nottingham, and probably Sheffield as well (via Derby, obviously).

But to make a small correction Wigston - Leicester is around 2 % of Felixstowe - Nuneaton; Leicester to Syston is another 3%, and of course 10% of F2N is already electrified

I'm depressed that my facetious remark was actually so close.

We need a nationalized electrification programme - like an actual industry, run centrally with various regional teams and continuous upskiling/re-training, procurement at scale etc, with a 20 year plan.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm depressed that my facetious remark was actually so close.

We need a nationalized electrification programme - like an actual industry, run centrally with various regional teams and continuous upskiling/re-training, procurement at scale etc, with a 20 year plan.

I would say national rather than nationalised, but yes, I agree. Although we do have one, it’s just in Scotland.

 

[Ploughman]

F2N means what?

 

[59CosG95]

F2N means what?

Felixstowe to Nuneaton (via Stowmarket, Ely, Peterborough and Leicester).

 

[Ploughman]

Felixstowe to Nuneaton (via Stowmarket, Ely, Peterborough and Leicester).

Thanks.
Not seen it before yesterday.

 

[londonmidland]

So after the current electrification project is complete, how long until the next one starts to extend it northwards? Also, do we even know if the wires will reach Market Harborough yet? There's been very little information regarding that recently.

I can't help think that once this project is complete, it'll be a number of years until the next one starts, inching the wires northwards. Electrification should have ended at Nottingham and/or Derby for the time being in my opinion.

 

[59CosG95]

So after the current electrification project is complete, how long until the next one starts to extend it northwards? Also, do we even know if the wires will reach Market Harborough yet? There's been very little information regarding that recently.

I can't help think that once this project is complete, it'll be a number of years until the next one starts, inching the wires northwards. Electrification should have ended at Nottingham and/or Derby for the time being in my opinion.

Authority has been given by the DfT to NR (and the current design team for MMLE) to give detailed designs for the extension to Mkt Harboro'; once the scope has been agreed, and a TWAO issued, construction begins (IIRC). A specialist groundwork contractor recently took lineside soil samples for the route north of Kettering, so one can safely assume that these samples will help form the basis for the layout/locations of OLE structure foundations.

No idea when the project will continue northwards; ISTR that the scope for the Leicester Area Remodelling still needs to be agreed (as it would be more cost-effective & sensible to design any OLE infrastructure around proposed changes as they happen, as far as is possible). I agree that wires should have gone onwards to Notts & Derby, but we are where we are.

 

[adamedwards]

On the plus side, doing this incrementally may be better than a Grand Project which gets cancelled. One might hope that by the time this wiring gets going, keeping the teams moving on after Corby is done (and St Pancras to Bedford made fit for 125mph electrics), Leicester will be on the cards. As the line north from Market Harborough is fairly basic to Wigston Junction that might happen, as the Bimodes can switch on the move.

 

[Bald Rick]

Authority has been given by the DfT to NR (and the current design team for MMLE) to give detailed designs for the extension to Mkt Harboro'; once the scope has been agreed, and a TWAO issued, construction begins (IIRC). A specialist groundwork contractor recently took lineside soil samples for the route north of Kettering, so one can safely assume that these samples will help form the basis for the layout/locations of OLE structure foundations.

No idea when the project will continue northwards; ISTR that the scope for the Leicester Area Remodelling still needs to be agreed (as it would be more cost-effective & sensible to design any OLE infrastructure around proposed changes as they happen, as far as is possible). I agree that wires should have gone onwards to Notts & Derby, but we are where we are.

Not sure a TWAO is required. It wasn’t for electrification to Corby. What would that be for?

 

[Brissle Girl]

Presumably, given that substations are a fairly significant part of the cost, once the Braybrooke one is up and running, any further extension north towards Leicester would be relatively cheap until there is a need to site the next one along. So, as an example, NR could make a case to continue to Leicester (or more likely just south) to give a short period of continuity to the electrification team whilst a wider review of the strategy for the MML is completed. (That does presume that there is indeed any serious intention to review the current policy to stop at MH - if the govt is still adamant then there would be little point.)