Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

[DB]

I do think it would be reasonable to offer a limited number of standing places on each train, with an "I don't mind standing" reservation.

And what when this 'limited' number is exceeded? Tough - you have to wait another half an hour to make this 25 minute journey? And that one might have used up its 'limited' allocation too on a Friday afternoon. So you have to wait an hour, or an hour and a half, or two hours...

Going to do wonders to encourage people back to the railways, isn't it?

 

[Ianno87]

Well except when I was in Milan and all the Trains to Paris that day were full.

The point is turn up and go is a significant difference from other Transport such as Coach and Airline where you do have to generally book in advance. if that difference disappears then I may go by Car instead or if I have to book in advance I may take the opportunity to save some money and go by coach instead.

On the flip side, how many people currently don't travel by train today because they worry they won't get a seat train will be crowded etc etc?

 

[bramling]

People seem to like having seats, and complain when they don't...



Don't get what?

What this forum doesn't seem to "get" is that a large number of passengers actually might like things that are heresey to most on here.

In summer last year, LNER were quite clearly the most successful long distsnce operator at actually getting people back on trains, with compulsory reservations.



You can turn up and go. You just need to find a phone or a ticket machine at least 5 minutes before.

Last summer isn’t the same as normal life. I can see why compulsory reservations might be useful with social distancing going on, but it certainly isn’t something I’d like to live with in normal times.

Judging by the fuss I’ve seen over the years over reservations, I’m not-at-all convinced they are something people are that attached to.

The idea that a reservations is vital for getting a seat is complete nonsense. I’ve pretty much never had a reservation for a long-distance train ever, and have never not got a seat.

 

[DB]

Absolutely nothing (AIUI) to stop you standing outside the doors of Stansted Airport and booking a Ryanair flight on your phone 2 hours before it is due to leave (it just might cost a bit, and subject to having a spare seat)

That isn't turn up and go - you have to book in advance, and you cannot guarantee a seat being available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely nothing (AIUI) to stop you standing outside the doors of Stansted Airport and booking a Ryanair flight on your phone 2 hours before it is due to leave (it just might cost a bit, and subject to having a spare seat)

The pricing model is a slightly different issue. DB for example do not operate compulsory reservations but equally have no discounted walk up fares other than by way of the BahnCard. Whereas there are railways where compulsory reservation applies but everyone pays the same, some of the Asian ones like State Railway of Thailand and KTMB (Malaysia) spring to mind.

FWIW I’ve (during disruption) booked a flight very close to departure before. I recall sitting at the outside benches at Euston booking one from Heathrow on another airline to replace one I had from City which was cancelled. I’ve also realised I was going to miss a flight while on a delayed train before, got my phone out and changed it to a later one. Many people think the concept means booking the day before, it doesn’t, that is mainly a pricing model issue.

One upside of it is to get rid of the Euston scrum, as why rush to the train if you know you have already reserved your preferred seat?

 

[Ianno87]

And what when this 'limited' number is exceeded? Tough - you have to wait another half an hour to make this 25 minute journey? And that one might have used up its 'limited' allocation too on a Friday afternoon. So you have to wait an hour, or an hour and a half, or two hours...

Going to do wonders to encourage people back to the railways, isn't it?

If the trains are so full that this is a problem, it would suggest that encouraging passengers back isn't a problem any more...

 

[bramling]

On the flip side, how many people currently don't travel by train today because they worry they won't get a seat train will be crowded etc etc?

And “reservations compulsory” as opposed to “reservations available” is the solution to that?

 

[DB]

The idea that a reservations is vital for getting a seat is complete nonsense. I’ve pretty much never had a reservation for a long-distance train ever, and have never not got a seat.

It's down to choice really, isn't it? If I want to travel on a Friday teatime service out of London in nornal circumstances, I know that I am unlikely to get a seat unless I get a reservation. But if I am prepared to stand, I can do that. For some reason some people think that taking away this choice and only leaving the first option is somehow a benefit to the passenger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And “reservations compulsory” as opposed to “reservations available” is the solution to that?

Its the only solution to trains being overcrowded, e.g. when it’s so busy you can’t even reach your seat.

 

[Ianno87]

Last summer isn’t the same as normal life. I can see why compulsory reservations might be useful with social distancing going on, but it certainly isn’t something I’d like to live with in normal times.

Judging by the fuss I’ve seen over the years over reservations, I’m not-at-all convinced they are something people are that attached to.

The idea that a reservations is vital for getting a seat is complete nonsense. I’ve pretty much never had a reservation for a long-distance train ever, and have never not got a seat.

It helps when you are "in the know" about which trains / carriages are likely to be busy, where best to stand on the platform etc. Most people aren't clued up about this.

And “reservations compulsory” as opposed to “reservations available” is the solution to that?

Yes because you get stories of trains so packed that you can't even get to your reserved seat, conflicts over sitting in the wrong seats, etc. Which isn't a good look for the railway either

 

[DB]

If the trains are so full that this is a problem, it would suggest that encouraging passengers back isn't a problem any more...

So once they are back, it's time to drive them away again?

How do you reckon this fits in with the government's aims to reduce pollution from vehicle use?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's down to choice really, isn't it? If I want to travel on a Friday teatime service out of London in nornal circumstances, I know that I am unlikely to get a seat unless I get a reservation. But if I am prepared to stand, I can do that. For some reason some people think that taking away this choice and only leaving the first option is somehow a benefit to the passenger.

One thing that would help is to put loading information on the journey planner as the Swiss do.

 

[DB]

Its the only solution to trains being overcrowded, e.g. when it’s so busy you can’t even reach your seat.

It's only a handful of trains which are so crowded that this happens - and they are normally predictable.

 

[Ianno87]

So once they are back, it's time to drive them away again?

How do you reckon this fits in with the government's aims to reduce pollution from vehicle use?

You won't be driving them away if those travelling all have guaranteed seats.

 

[bramling]

It's down to choice really, isn't it? If I want to travel on a Friday teatime service out of London in nornal circumstances, I know that I am unlikely to get a seat unless I get a reservation. But if I am prepared to stand, I can do that. For some reason some people think that taking away this choice and only leaving the first option is somehow a benefit to the passenger.

Exactly. No one has yet managed to make a case for why reservations should be *compulsory*, which isn’t the same as having them available should people want them. I can’t understand why anyone could think that reducing choice would be a positive thing.

 

[DB]

You won't be driving them away if those travelling all have guaranteed seats.

You will be driving away all those who don't know when they will be travelling (common with many jobs, including mine). It'll only take one occasion when they have to hang around for ages because they can't get a reservation, and next time they will use a car if they have access to one, and the time after...

Those who have guaranteed seats will have them anyway because they are the people who will book (apart from on the small minority of trains which are so rammed that they can't get to them), so no net benefit there either.

 

[800001]

And when the booking office is closed, or non-existent ... ?????

You ask a member of station staff who will Kindly do it for you on there works mobile.

 

[philosopher]

It's only a handful of trains which are so crowded that this happens - and they are normally predictable.

I guess it boils down to whether passengers want
1) A guaranteed seat but a risk they may be unable to travel at the time they wish.
2) A guarantee that they can travel whenever they want but a risk they may have to stand.

 

[bramling]

It helps when you are "in the know" about which trains / carriages are likely to be busy, where best to stand on the platform etc. Most people aren't clued up about this.



Yes because you get stories of trains so packed that you can't even get to your reserved seat, conflicts over sitting in the wrong seats, etc. Which isn't a good look for the railway either

Niche issues. The fact that people are prepared to cram onto such trains suggests they value the flexibility. It’s hardly a mainstream thing in any case.

As for some people “not being in the know” about where to stand, is that not one of those little facts of life, that over time people gain life experience which makes living that little bit easier?

 

[DB]

As for some people “not being in the know” about where to stand, is that not one of those little facts of life, that over time people gain life experience which makes living that little bit easier?

And from my observation, many business travellers very much are aware of it - you can see them going to their preferred spot on the platform when the train is announced.

 

[Ianno87]

Niche issues. The fact that people are prepared to cram onto such trains suggests they value the flexibility. It’s hardly a mainstream thing in any case.

As for some people “not being in the know” about where to stand, is that not one of those little facts of life, that over time people gain life experience which makes living that little bit easier?

Another fact of life is that some people are only very occasional rail users, won't pick up these nuances, and a bad/crowded train experience will very easily put them off another journey for a long time.

 

[DB]

Another fact of life is that some people are only very occasional rail users, won't pick up these nuances, and a bad/crowded train experience will very easily put them off another journey for a long time.

And another niche issue!

People who use the railways once in a blue moon are inevitably going to be of less concern to the railways than people who use them every day or every week!

 

[Ianno87]

And another niche issue!

People who use the railways one in a blue moon are inevitably going to be of less concern to the railways than people who use them every day or every week!

So, what 10% or so of the country are regular rail users?

Perhaps the railway should be trying to eat into and appeal to the other 90%....?

 

[bramling]

Another fact of life is that some people are only very occasional rail users, won't pick up these nuances, and a bad/crowded train experience will very easily put them off another journey for a long time.

So? Fact is most people *won’t* have such an experience. So we’re talking about making a major change to hypothetically enable “very occasional” rail users to avoid something which is itself a very occasional situation.

It’s no different to having a random bad experience on a motorway, which can happen no matter how much planning one does. Fact of life.

 

[Domh245]

Another fact of life is that some people are only very occasional rail users, won't pick up these nuances, and a bad/crowded train experience will very easily put them off another journey for a long time.

And? Does rail need to win every single passenger, including those who were so dubious about it that one bad experience puts them off? The fact that the trains were busy enough for them to have that bad experience would suggest that they don't need to cook up schemes to cater for those timid-travellers

 

[Ianno87]

And? Does rail need to win every single passenger, including those who were so dubious about it that one bad experience puts them off? The fact that the trains were busy enough for them to have that bad experience would suggest that they don't need to cook up schemes to cater for those timid-travellers

At this moment in time with revenue through the floor, rail needs to appeal to as many potential passengers as possible.

 

[bramling]

And? Does rail need to win every single passenger, including those who were so dubious about it that one bad experience puts them off? The fact that the trains were busy enough for them to have that bad experience would suggest that they don't need to cook up schemes to cater for those timid-travellers

Exactly. Up until last year attracting passengers was hardly an issue, on the contrary if anything.

The main issue for the immediate future is convincing people that trains aren’t some germ-ridden health hazard, and forcing you to sit in a designated seat is hardly going to be a way of doing that once social distancing is no longer a thing.

 

[DB]

So, what 10% or so of the country are regular rail users?

Perhaps the railway should be trying to eat into and appeal to the other 90%....?

So in order to encourage Doris from Doncaster to use the train twice a year, they should impose a system which will drive away some of their regular passengers? Not sure that this makes muich business sense, or any other sense!

It basically boils down to the point already made - if capacity is a major issue, the railways need to increase it.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't mind standing in a wedged vestibule if needed for something like Doncaster-York, but if they start imposing booking then they will also impose maximum numbers standing

It is actually the opposite that is more of an issue though - people reserving between Doncaster and York who are happy to stand then preventing someone else from booking all the way from London and Scotland.

 

[bramling]

At this moment in time with revenue through the floor, rail needs to appeal to as many potential passengers as possible.

How about getting back what was there before, rather than going for a hypothetical market, a proportion of which may well be pretty sour towards even thinking about using public transport, not least now we have the added issue of there being a perception that public transport is a health hazard?