Montpellier - Nimes Bypass LGV status, and effect on Paris-Barcelona travel times?

[tornado]

Hi,

Does anyone know what is happening with the Montpellier - Nimes Contournement (Bypass)? This supposedly came into service in late 2019 and was intended to save 20 minutes on the Paris - Perpignan line.

However, when I check Paris-Barcelona journey times, they seem to be getting slower and slower! At launch they managed 6 hr 15 min, which then rose to 6 hr 23 mins, and recently 6 hr 41 mins. In theory that line should be < 6 hours by now, but seems to be going in the opposite direction..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contournement_Nîmes_–_Montpellier

 

[30907]

The time difference appears to be about 12 minutes compared with the old route, but my impression is that all bar one train on the Perpignan route now call at Sete Agde and Beziers which wasn't the case. Part of SNCF's retrenchment of its normal TGV Inoui services?

 

[tornado]

Oh yes that's true. Never been on it myself, but I'm sure I remember that Sete Agde and Beziers weren't in the original Paris-Barcelona schedule.

Seems a bad business move. The end to end journey is long enough as it is that many people will fly it instead.

 

[tsubaki]

Going there (hopefully) in September and a lot of the trains that last year went to St Roch now seem to go via Sud de France. Not sure what the point of it as a bypass is, given (as 30907 says) they go on to also stop at Sete and the rest now.

 

[tornado]

The grand plan is eventually to have Paris-Madrid in 6 hours, so Paris-Barcelona in <4 hours as the other bit is already maxed out at 320kph. They're going to need to work some magic for that to happen.

 

[Peter Kelford]

The time difference appears to be about 12 minutes compared with the old route, but my impression is that all bar one train on the Perpignan route now call at Sete Agde and Beziers which wasn't the case. Part of SNCF's retrenchment of its normal TGV Inoui services?

Not sure what the point of it as a bypass is,

The grand plan is eventually to have Paris-Madrid in 6 hours, so Paris-Barcelona in <4 hours as the other bit is already maxed out at 320kph. They're going to need to work some magic for that to happen.

Indeed.

The conventional Nîmes line is chock-full of traffic (200 trains per day) including a fair few 500m+ freights. ME160-type freights and longer distance passenger services are being moved onto the contournement in order to free the conventional line for freight. The opportunity to raise the line speed to 300km/h exists for the future with the retrofitting of ERTMS2.

 

[437.001]

The grand plan is eventually to have Paris-Madrid in 6 hours, so Paris-Barcelona in <4 hours as the other bit is already maxed out at 320kph. They're going to need to work some magic for that to happen.

I think that Paris-Madrid in 6 hours was the original intended travel time from Paris Montparnasse to Madrid Chamartin via Hendaye and Bordeaux.
Anyway, even though there are plans to build a HSL between Bordeaux and Dax, and the HSL's between Valladolid and Burgos and the Basque Y between Vitoria and Bilbao/San Sebastian are both under construction (more advanced the former, while the Basque Y is being delayed once and again), there would be the classic line gaps between Burgos and Vitoria, and between San Sebastian and Dax, so Paris-Hendaye-Madrid in 6 hours looks unlikely in the near future.

I've never heard much about a Paris Gare de Lyon-Madrid Atocha via Barcelona Sants.
Currently Barcelona Sants to Madrid Atocha is done in 2h 38min in the best case (non-stop).
Hard to believe that any Paris-Barcelona-Madrid hypothetical service could do it in less than 8/9 hours.
Particularly if trains on Montpellier-Perpignan will still run on the classic line for years, and Nimes-Montpellier and Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant are not for 300km/h.

 

[cle]

Agreed. Madrid definitely seems smarter and quicker via Bordeaux. Madrid - San Sebastian -Bordeaux - Paris is a foodie and wine dream!

Paris to Barcelona in 5 hours would be a better goal for the Montpellier route. Only intermediate calls at Nimes, Montpellier and Perpignan. There are a fair few smaller calls today which could be cut from a headline service or two.

 

[Austriantrain]

Indeed.

The conventional Nîmes line is chock-full of traffic (200 trains per day) including a fair few 500m+ freights. ME160-type freights and longer distance passenger services are being moved onto the contournement in order to free the conventional line for freight. The opportunity to raise the line speed to 300km/h exists for the future with the retrofitting of ERTMS2.

Does not make a lot of sense. The new stations are in the middle of nowhere and the slightly shorter journey times are more that eaten up by the trip to the cities themselves (which did not want those out-of-the-way stations). The timetable as it is is a bad compromise, trying to serve all the stations at unattractive frequency.

OTOH there is no reason at all to not reroute *all* the through freight via the new line.

The situation might change once the HSL reaches all the way to Perpignan, but this is going to take decades and it might still not make sense to bypass the largest city in this part of France, Montpellier.

As things stand, the costs of building the two new stations should better have been avoided. But decisions about new stations in France have always been more than debatable.

The grand plan is eventually to have Paris-Madrid in 6 hours, so Paris-Barcelona in <4 hours as the other bit is already maxed out at 320kph. They're going to need to work some magic for that to happen.

Apart from the fact - as has already been stated here - that Paris- Madrid will run by Hendaye, there is absolutely no realistic scenario that Paris - Barcelona will ever be <4 hours, Paris - Montpellier Sud de France now being 3h15 on fully HSL (I know, 220 km/h max after Nimes, but still..).

 

[Peter Kelford]

Does not make a lot of sense. The new stations are in the middle of nowhere and the slightly shorter journey times are more that eaten up by the trip to the cities themselves (which did not want those out-of-the-way stations). The timetable as it is is a bad compromise, trying to serve all the stations at unattractive frequency.

You would need to look at this in the grand scheme of things such as the big Paris-Spain and 'Mediterranean Arc' projects where the goals will be timings from places like:
'PLM'-Barcelona
Lyon+Marseille - Toulouse - Bordeaux
Nice/Cannes - Marseille - Toulouse - Bordeaux
etc etc:

 

[Austriantrain]

You would need to look at this in the grand scheme of things such as the big Paris-Spain and 'Mediterranean Arc' projects where the goals will be timings from places like:
'PLM'-Barcelona
Lyon+Marseille - Toulouse - Bordeaux
Nice/Cannes - Marseille - Toulouse - Bordeaux
etc etc:

That is exactly what you shouldn‘t do. Those projects are decades from completion and some will probably never be built; others (like Paris - Barcelona in 4 hours) are unrealistic.

In the meantime, SNCF is stuck with two useless and costly stations, when passive provision (if at all) would have been completely sufficient.

What you are describing is the French way of thinking, but it is not working anymore. Running the French High-Speed network economically is getting more and more difficult, passenger numbers are stagnating, timetables are getting worse. The French are stuck, unfortunately. Political pressure to go on building HSL lines is still strong, but almost any new line justified economically is already built.

 

[cle]

Bordeaux to Toulouse is a big exception to this. Whether that continues to Narbonne as a true high speed line and makes that route competitive also, who knows.

 

[Austriantrain]

Bordeaux to Toulouse is a big exception to this.

There is of course a huge political rationale behind improving links from one of the biggest French cities, Toulouse, with Paris. I would never argue with this, but even so, this will be a sparsely used LGV (and with more „Gares Betteraves“). Continuing the HSL from Toulouse to Narbonne, however, is very difficult to justify, and even more so if through trains bypass the major cities (such as Montpellier) and thus do not capture traffic potentials in their entirety.

I think last year, there was an experiment with a „very fast“ train Bordeaux - Marseille stopping only in Toulouse and Montpellier Sud-de-France. It soon disappeared from the timetable, apparently these few stops could not fill the train. And considering the size of the cities involved, the only two-hourly IC service Bordeaux - Marseille shows how inadequate French timetables really are. In any case, no reason for a HSL Toulouse- Narbonne and there seems to very little activity on Montpellier - Perpignan as well.

OTOH on the Côte d’Azur, a remarkable turnaround seems to have been made in the plans, away from a line designed to achieve Paris - Nice in the fastest time possible and instead increasing capacity for local traffic (and with good interfaces to the old line - finally some common sense).

 

[tornado]

I think that Paris-Madrid in 6 hours was the original intended travel time from Paris Montparnasse to Madrid Chamartin via Hendaye and Bordeaux.
Anyway, even though there are plans to build a HSL between Bordeaux and Dax, and the HSL's between Valladolid and Burgos and the Basque Y between Vitoria and Bilbao/San Sebastian are both under construction (more advanced the former, while the Basque Y is being delayed once and again), there would be the classic line gaps between Burgos and Vitoria, and between San Sebastian and Dax, so Paris-Hendaye-Madrid in 6 hours looks unlikely in the near future.

I've never heard much about a Paris Gare de Lyon-Madrid Atocha via Barcelona Sants.
Currently Barcelona Sants to Madrid Atocha is done in 2h 38min in the best case (non-stop).
Hard to believe that any Paris-Barcelona-Madrid hypothetical service could do it in less than 8/9 hours.
Particularly if trains on Montpellier-Perpignan will still run on the classic line for years, and Nimes-Montpellier and Barcelona-Figueres Vilafant are not for 300km/h.

Indeed. The timings to get Paris - Madrid in 6hr5min are given here

LGV Bordeaux - Espagne — Wikipédia

fr.wikipedia.org

 

[Austriantrain]

Indeed. The timings to get Paris - Madrid in 6hr5min are given here

LGV Bordeaux - Espagne — Wikipédia

fr.wikipedia.org

OTOH, this site gives a 6h timing via Montpellier and Barcelona:

Ligne nouvelle Montpellier - Perpignan — Wikipédia

fr.m.wikipedia.org

While six hours via Bordeaux and a through HSL seems quite feasible, via Barcelona it does not (Barcelona - Madrid alone is 2.5 hours, and I would imagine that Paris - Barcelona will be difficult to do in less than 4.5 hours.)

In all scenarios, these timings will require almost nonstop operation and the real question is, whether there is a market to fill such trains more than twice or three times a day (meaning that the plane will also win on frequency; 6 hours Paris - Madrid is not really competitive anyway).

 

[tornado]

People said that Paris-Barcelona in 6h15 wasn't competitive, but they manage to fill the trains. Tourists especially don't seem to mind.

Barcelona-Madrid could actually be done in close to 2 hours if running at 350 kph instead of 320kph but the Spanish decided that the extra energy used was too expensive. There does seem to be a ceiling around 320-330kph beyond which it's not commercially viable.

 

[Austriantrain]

People said that Paris-Barcelona in 6h15 wasn't competitive, but they manage to fill the trains. Tourists especially don't seem to mind.

Even pre-Covid, the timetable was really bad though, and potentially maxed out, since lucrative business travel will probably not use those trains. No reason to design an HSL around such city pairs, those lines can only be justified by much, much more intensive traffic.

And of course, the current Paris - Barcelona trains are far from nonstop, meaning the vast majority of passengers will probably not be traveling over the whole distance.

 

[tornado]

Only solution is night trains! Not sure about the freight limitations but that would be a very easy commercial win for the full distance with no stops. Huge numbers go back and forth between those two cities.

 

[cle]

France's stopping patterns are quite erratic, but if they were standardized like the Japanese do (hikarie, nozomi etc) then you might see something like:

Fastest:
Paris - Nimes - Montpellier - Perpignan - Barcelona

Mid:
add Beziers, Narbonne, Girona

Slower (unlikely to run the whole way but adding
Valence, Sete/Agde, Figueres, maybe a Lyon call.

 

[Austriantrain]

Only solution is night trains! Not sure about the freight limitations but that would be a very easy commercial win for the full distance with no stops. Huge numbers go back and forth between those two cities.

Night trains would be great obviously, but I am quite sure that a case for two-hourly TGV could be made as well, just not nonstop or very few stops, but simply as an extension of the normal TGV services to Montpellier/Beziers/Perpignan.

Ideally, Lyon Part-Dieu should be served as well because of the great connecting possibilities there. The time-loss of approx 15-20 Minutes would not really matter on such a long distance.

If this was Germany or the UK, that is exactly how it would be done. SNCF however sees the TGV as a plane on rails, not as part of an integrated public
transport service, so it is not going to happen.