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More dangerous lineside behaviour around Flying Scotsman

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Harbornite

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The book really does need to be thrown at these dimwits, the message should have sunk in by now.

As for Scotsman, would be a bit of a shame taking it off the mainline. I suggest renumbering/naming it as 60039 and Sandwich, might possibly result in smaller crowds..

. I imagine that it's this sense of self-entitlement that makes some people feel that they have the right to disobey sensible safety regulations and go off wandering along the trackside.

Perhaps. One photter ordered me to crouch whilst I was photographing one of the diverted sleepers at Kings Cross today. Chose to ignore him.

Exactly which part of the train extends for three feet over the edge of the platform? Is the train going to jump off the tracks and grab me? No, the yellow line just allows orange-vested jobsworths to shout at the paying public as they do every day at Blackfriars.

Passing trains cause turbulence, remember.

Time for a ban on locos both diesel and steam, an outdated haulage method in the modern world, slow freight should stick to the road.

Absolute drivel. How would that solve the issue being discussed?
 
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bramling

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I had a feeling that yesterday’s events would provoke a discussion, and I can see that it’s following fairly predictable lines. A shame, really.

Anyone questioning the need for yellow lines on platform edges, repetitive announcements and any of the other pesky measures that the railway employs in the name of safety has clearly never been involved with an incident investigation nor the workings of the common leech (aka compensation lawyer). Are they overkill? Probably. However, the railway cannot assume that safety is a matter of commonsense and must, therefore, do everything practicable to ensure that everyone from the seasoned commuter to the first-time traveller is kept safe. Do people need to be told of the dangers of droplight windows? Recent events would suggest that they do, and it is almost certain that the railways will be held largely responsible for this.

Yes we can all cry “Misadventure…!!”, but ultimately the investigative process will follow a sadly predictable line.

Q: Why did this person die?
A: They were struck by a lineside object.

Q: How were they struck by a lineside object?
A: They were leaning out of a droplight window.

Q: Why are there droplight windows in use on passenger trains?
A: Er…

Now this is not entirely relevant to the FFS, but you can see how the same analysis would apply had a photter been splashed across the front of a Voyager yesterday.

As an aside, the yellow line is there to replicate the safe distance for staff going lineside in order to help ensure passenger safety. For speeds up to 100mph this is 4 feet, hence the yellow line being around that distance from the platform edge even where the linespeed is significantly lower than 100mph. As for nothing hanging more than 1.25 metres from a train, may I suggest that a broken pantograph could easily exceed that distance.

But to finally come around to the FFS and the events of yesterday, it is regrettable that it is once again a matter of photters v railstaff. The problem here is that the vast burden of trespass yesterday was a consequence of photters getting to places that they shouldn’t be, and that is simply a matter of fact. We had photters in the cess, at access points, on crossings and even up a signal gantry. Some of my colleagues were given the most fantastical justifications for people being lineside, reasons that simply don’t stand even the scantest scrutiny. This is simply unacceptable, and trying to protest that somehow we’ve overreached ourselves by enforcing petty rules that exist simply to spoil your day only marks you out as the kind of uncooperative enthusiast that will happily ignore the advice and direction you’ve been given.

In spite of everything (including my own feeling about mainline steam operations), I’m sure there is no real will to ban the FFS and other historical anachronisms from the network. However, if we are going to run these services we need to be able to do so safely. If we cannot rely on the goodwill and behaviour of the enthusiast community then Nitwit Rail will inevitably step in, and that will be to the detriment of all.

An excellent post.

I don’t quite get why it’s needed to turn into a staff v enthusiast slanging match, not least because it seems unlikely anyone on here is one of yesterday’s guilty parties (or if they are they’re wisely not admitting to it!). Some chill pills needed all round perhaps...
 

Bucephalus

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Quite possibly you encountered one of those people who has some thought process of their own, rather than the run-of-the-mill jump-on-the-bandwagon types!

Personally I’m more keen on everyday stuff than something like a steam special.

I was quite fond of the class 323s and to a lesser extent, the 319s that northern have had for a while. I would have been quite annoyed if Flying Scottsman were to block my view of one!

#confinethekettletosettle ;)

Now that I'm tripping over EMUs in London I probably wouldn't say no to a pacer or a sprinter. Would I get why a person might stand on the ballast to snap the last class 142 in service? Probably. Resurect an A-Stock tube, I'd wanna be stood waiting in the six-foot!

And that's the problem in my opinion. It's not about the FS, steam, any other blind spot, or all trains full stop. People will be prepared to take big risks if the subjects excite them enough.

It'll be sod's law that steam gets pulled on the mainline and then some enthusiasts get killed photographing the last semaphore signal or BR type 100 insulator pot or something. I'm not quite sure what the point is I'm trying to make tho
 

randyrippley

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I'm not claiming that there were no "enthusiasts" trespassing at all, but in my part of the world they were the minority.
The majority were what you call "randoms" who came out specifically to dribble over Scotsman. They don't come out in anything like the same numbers for a Merchant Navy, a Black 5 or any other water-boiling device. Or for a 37, 56, 67, 90 or any other diesel or electric device.

It's quite possibly different in your bit of the world.

Nothing else gets hyped in the press in the same way
 

O L Leigh

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Most of the "randoms" yesterday tended to be in expected places; stations, bridges, etc. The twits on the ballast were mostly toting expensive camera kit and an over-inflated sense of entitlement.

Yes the FFS gets hyped in the press, but I'm not sure I'd want to see it running under wraps. It's nice for the "randoms" to know it's coming so they can take the kids/grandkids down to see the choo-choo train. The vast majority of those were happy to see it and behaved very well.
 

westcoaster

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I wonder what the over riding risk is here to trespass.
Why do people go into unsafe positions to get that 'photo', what is the driving factor behind this.

I personally think it's to get that one shot with no-one else or any lineside furniture in it.
When making that shot the people will be thinking about this angle and that angle, high or low, close up or far away. Where they need to stand.
I bet they instantaneously dismiss the issue around trespass and personal safety for that 'shot'. "It'll be ok, no one will see me"

Could another point about people refusing to move be a generation thing. Not wishing to sound ageist but alot of pictures show older gentlemen being the main perpetrators. Could this hark back to days gone by where this was the done thing, and a blind eye was turned.


I know what I would have done if I was the driver involved, I'd have moved forward and blocked that 'shot'. They would soon retreat.
 

Spartacus

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The book really does need to be thrown at these dimwits, the message should have sunk in by now.

As for Scotsman, would be a bit of a shame taking it off the mainline. I suggest renumbering/naming it as 60039 and Sandwich, might possibly result in smaller crowds..

60108 would probably be most appropriate these days ;)

I wonder if the problem was more pronounced with this tour as the timings were published so far in advance, over two weeks before the run, when in the early weeks of 'Scotsman Fever' the timings were published as close as physically possible to the running date. Hopefully today's return won't suffer similar problems.
 

433N

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I do get bemused about the fervour around steam trains.

I am a 50-odd year old bloke and yet have little interest because they were not part of my youth. Similarly, one of the dudes at lineside in that photo is clearly not of an age where they would have been part of his youth. Alot of it is manufactured nostalgia for a past that never actually happened.

Similarly, why the obsession with a 'perfect' photo ? What are they trying to capture ? A train without people in it. All trains are connected with people. That is their purpose. Why are they taking the photograph ? The truth of the Scotsman running is that people flock to see it (often taking stupid risks). Surely a truly great photograph should capture this in some way. This is what actually happens. This is what people feel about the Flying Scotsman. This is the event. With all the fancy photographic equipment they have, in my (probably very very minority) opinion, they understand little about photograhy or being human. Why try to exclude from the photo the effect it has on people ? Indeed, why not try to capture it which is much harder and is what a good photographer would do (not that I am one).

They can carry on trying to get their perfect, sterile, completely fake photo of an anachronism and I'll stick to photographing Pacers - the true stalwarts (and parables) of our times ... and I don't care if there is some railway infrastructure or, god forbid, people in it ; they may well enhance it. In actual pictures from the times of steam, it is the people in them that provide the context for learning something about the past ; their clothes, the fag in the mouth, the bottle of Tizer ...
 

Dave1987

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Kettles seem to make people lose their marbles. Keep them off the main line and keep them on preserved lines where they cannot cause much disruption if people can’t keep themselves from wanting to lick windows or wanting to stand 3ft away from a running line with no high visibility clothing on at all. There is a reason why NR peeps wear high vis from top to bottom!
 

pdeaves

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Similarly, why the obsession with a 'perfect' photo ? What are they trying to capture ? A train without people in it. All trains are connected with people. That is their purpose. Why are they taking the photograph ? The truth of the Scotsman running is that people flock to see it (often taking stupid risks). Surely a truly great photograph should capture this in some way. This is what actually happens. This is what people feel about the Flying Scotsman. This is the event. With all the fancy photographic equipment they have, in my (probably very very minority) opinion, they understand little about photograhy or being human. Why try to exclude from the photo the effect it has on people ? Indeed, why not try to capture it which is much harder and is what a good photographer would do.
Hear, hearr. Take pictures of, and make a feature of, what's there! I have similar questions for people at open days that abuse other visitors to get out of their photos, but that's another topic!
 

adamello

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It doesn't matter if you grew up on the railways, climbed through yards as a kid, worked as a MoM, built the railways, are a current driver, IK Brunel or even a 25 year old single mother who wants to take her five year old son to see a train the looks like Thomas (relatively speaking compared to a Desiro 444) because she saw it advertised on a local 'news' site and because its a sunny Sunday on a bank holiday weekend and you want to get out and do something.
All the people have the right (if in one case not the ability) to go look at the train and take a photo.. there is no God given right that a Spotter/Enthusiast/Anorak/Nerd or whatever colloquial label people want to use has more rights to a position / Photo / Video because its a "..genuine legal hobby.."
HOWEVER
All have to follow the relevant laws/bye-laws/guidance as indicated, saying "..I know better / there's more space here therefore safer than on a platform.." (paraphrased) or "..the yellow line is pointless because trains only pass through by station at 10mph and no slamdoor stock opening while the train is approaching anymore..." are not excuses or legal exemptions.

The relevant rail regulators and authorities are more than accommodating to enthusiasts providing they stay within the lines..

H&S rules are generally implemented as a result of incidents and a need for something to happen - recently as a result of RAIB, they are not draconian, that would be those that say bring back the man walking with a red flag in a fully enclosed rail network, is risk mitigation, if you decide you know better - one day you will be caught out.
 
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Spamcan81

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Kettles seem to make people lose their marbles. Keep them off the main line and keep them on preserved lines where they cannot cause much disruption if people can’t keep themselves from wanting to lick windows or wanting to stand 3ft away from a running line with no high visibility clothing on at all. There is a reason why NR peeps wear high vis from top to bottom!

You obviously didn't see the hysteria surrounding the final days of the Deltics then.
 

Clip

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Well this certainly went the way i first thought - people correctly stating that some(not all) spotters with cameras are the cause of the trespass with these special workings and along come those who think it is a direct dig to them and then spout about how safe they are when taking pictures which really misses the point originally made with some - not all.

Lets be brutally honest here to all those who seem to be offended - if you do go out and take pics of these workings then great but if you do see someone doing something they shouldnt then tell them because if this carries on like this then you wont get to see them on the mainline anymore - the future is in yours and everyones hands here - be part of the solution and not the problem
 

Dren Ahmeti

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I predict Sat 18th for some OTT HST spotting, at least on the GW...
I can just see the platform staff at Reading forming a line around Platforms 7 and 8 when the “Flying Banana” goes through at 40mph on its way to Plymouth! :lol:
In all seriousness, there are some pretty nice bridges over the B&H/GWML, no need to cram onto the platforms at stations and give staff a heart attack!
This was pretty evident when I was at Twyford station the last time the Flying Delaysman went through...
 
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Apologies for the generalisations, but I think the problem lies far more in the serious videographers than casual spotters, who may be unfamiliar with the railway, as some have suggested.

The arrogrance of the former makes me embarrassed to be a steam fan sometimes: nothing seems to matter as long as they get their video. This isn't confined to the railways: in birdwatching, a simmilar issue is professional photographers damaging habitat or scaring-off rare birds when trying to get ever closer and closer with their cameras.

Back to railways: I was recently told-off by one keen videographer for standing in view of his panning-shot (I was behind him). I was stood behind the Stop sign on a foot-crossing path; he was half a dozen yards off the footpath and perched on the lineside verge. Evidently the hypocrisy of scolding the one person there not trespassing for being in the wrong place was lost on him.

Given the railway isn't public/freely accessible land, would this mean, technically, that prior-permission has to be sought to film on the premises? More frequent fines for trespass would be an improvement, but what would really make the idiots think is if their precious videos were also confiscated/deleted by the BTP.
 

yoyothehobo

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I remember recently reading about an article that a rare bird was spotted in Scotland, some type of Owl i think and they went to all means necessary to not let anyone know where it was so they didnt go disturbing the nest and causing all sorts of chaos.

I dont think it is just the hardcore Spotterrazzi with kettles that this occurs in. I know of the same thing happening with amateur photographers in wildlife watching and motorsport. The kind of thing where people have all this kit associated with the attitude that they have a god given right to be beyond protective fencing and as an official at some of these motorsport events (more often the amateur ones) if you politely tell someone they cant be somewhere, they get rather shirty.

I honestly think that the BTP need to start cracking down on this, with fines and turning up at the popular spots. They know where they are, its not hard to find them and I doubt many of the people here would be outrunning them with all the camera equipment.

If delay minutes like with the Flying Scotsman rack up on a regular basis, i can see it being less and less welcome.
 

LOL The Irony

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I honestly think that the BTP need to start cracking down on this, with fines and turning up at the popular spots. They know where they are, its not hard to find them and I doubt many of the people here would be outrunning them with all the camera equipment.
I agree. We're all pointing fingers yet some of the blame has to lie with the BTP for their apparent inaction on this. We have their faces plastered all over YouTube and social media yet they don't make any arrests. I get there's a staffing issue but this is like shooting fish in a barrel. Come on!
 
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It doesn't matter if you grew up on the railways, climbed through yards as a kid, worked as a MoM, built the railways, are a current driver, IK Brunel or even a 25 year old single mother who wants to take her five year old son to see a train the looks like Thomas (relatively speaking compared to a Desiro 444) because she saw it advertised on a local 'news' site and because its a sunny Sunday on a bank holiday weekend and you want to get out and do something.
All the people have the right (if in one case not the ability) to go look at the train and take a photo.. there is no God given right that a Spotter/Enthusiast/Anorak/Nerd or whatever colloquial label people want to use has more rights to a position / Photo / Video because its a "..genuine legal hobby.."
HOWEVER
All have to follow the relevant laws/bye-laws/guidance as indicated, saying "..I know better / there's more space here therefore safer than on a platform.." (paraphrased) or "..the yellow line is pointless because trains only pass through by station at 10mph and no slamdoor stock opening while the train is approaching anymore..." are not excuses or legal exemptions.

The relevant rail regulators and authorities are more than accommodating to enthusiasts providing they stay within the lines..

H&S rules are generally implemented as a result of incidents and a need for something to happen - recently as a result of RAIB, they are not draconian, that would be those that say bring back the man walking with a red flag in a fully enclosed rail network, is risk mitigation, if you decide you know better - one day you will be caught out.
Repeatedly brings hands together swiftly and noisily in an accepted human way of demonstrating approval :p

When I was young and stupid, I came to grief a couple of times on railways because I knew it all, I could look after myself and those in charge were just 'killjoys'. The resulting injuries in a couple of cases (fortunately for me, not much moe than scratches) and hardcore trouser-soiling in another... taught me that I didn't, I couldn't and they weren't.

Far importantly than how intact my pride, ego and skin were, I didn't give any other poor innocent sap nightmares for the rest of their lives by witnessing a foolish know it all end up spread all over the trackbed or the front of a locomotive...
 
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The_Train

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How do you know they haven't made any arrests?

If they have then they should be making it common knowledge. This has to be equally about creating a deterrent going forward as much as punishing those who have committed an offence in this case
 

Ken H

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I thought you needed a permit to take photographs on Network rail property. Stations are private places. Maybe they should insist on photography permits at £10 a go when there are kettles about.
 

Harbornite

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I thought you needed a permit to take photographs on Network rail property. Stations are private places. Maybe they should insist on photography permits at £10 a go when there are kettles about.

Crap idea, people will still turn up at footcrossings and bridges.
 
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