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More dangerous lineside behaviour around Flying Scotsman

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Spamcan81

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The usual froth surrounding steam tours. There are incidents of trespass every day, the vast majority of which have sodd all to do with rail tours.
 
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bramling

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The usual froth surrounding steam tours. There are incidents of trespass every day, the vast majority of which have sodd all to do with rail tours.

I think this sums it up. Whilst these incidents shouldn’t be happening, in the grand scheme of things it’s nothing. Virtually every railway employee who deals with fatalities and the like will go through their career without being involved in one where an enthusiast is involved.

In any case, the industry now seems to be going down the road of dealing with trespass at its roots - my local line for example has seen many hundreds of metres of new palisade fencing in the last year alone.
 

DarloRich

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The usual froth surrounding steam tours. There are incidents of trespass every day, the vast majority of which have sodd all to do with rail tours.

Indeed - but there is a link between these kind of examples of trespass and puffer tours. If the train didn't run those people wouldn't be stood where they shouldn't be.

If something isn't done to counter this behaviour tours like this will be stopped. People of influence in different areas of the railway are not happy about the impact this kind of trespass has on their day to day operations.

People watching these tours need to he involved is stopping the trespassing. It cant be left entirely to other people.
 

Mag_seven

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It's the audacity of those seen blatantly trespassing that gets me. Given a lot of them will be caught on camera what makes them think they will get away with it?
 
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LOL The Irony

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For info this was a Northern Saturday timetable; no trains and some buses. This excursion both outbound and inbound, plus ECS move at the end of the day, was the only traffic on Saturday. Effectively; it was a heritage line...
Isn't the point really. Yes it seems like there was little danger at the time but what was stopping an ECS move or freight train from coming along and hitting them?
 

Darandio

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Isn't the point really. Yes it seems like there was little danger at the time but what was stopping an ECS move or freight train from coming along and hitting them?

Well nothing. But they always need to clutch at something whenever there is any suggestion that their precious kettles could be removed from the railway.
 

6Gman

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Pre 80's cant recall this problem, we traveled far and wide with drop lights but took our own safety seriously and didnt put the responsibility on others. We spent many hours on platform ends and again without problem didnt put responsibility on other's. If individuals are stupid enough to put their safety at risk why should others be held responsible? Time to get away from the Nanny state and ambulance chasers and take responsibilities for our own actions

It happened in the 70s.
 

Dougal2345

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It's the audacity of those seen blatantly trespassing that gets me. Given a lot of them will be caught on camera what makes them think they will get away with it?
Well they probably will get away with it won't they? I imagine there are better ways to spend one's time than trawling CCTV and YouTube trying to identify some idiot who's wandered a few feet past a 'must not pass this point' sign to take a nice photograph.

There's a lot of sound and fury in this thread, but all I see is a few people taking pretty minimal risks with their own safety, and I find it difficult to get exercised by that.

Someone dashing across a busy road is probably at massively greater personal risk than someone who's standing on the wrong side of the yellow line on a platform, but I don't stand at my local accident blackspot berating anyone crossing without due care and attention, yelling "Think of your families! And of the trauma you'll cause the emergency services!"

Perhaps anyone on the 'fury' side of this question should just ask themselves - have I ever crossed a Pelican crossing when the red man was showing?
 

PR1Berske

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I think the point is, someone crossing the road is doing so to get to the shops or the garage or their home or wherever. An enthusiast who is on the wrong side of a yellow line in the path of a train has no purpose to be in that dangerous position, other than showing a sense of entitlement.
 

Ben Bow

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There seem to be two parallel themes going on, the usual discussion on trespass surrounding steam tours, and what is going on in the cab. Perhaps generic discussion about trespass could be given its own thread?
I have viewed the footage several times and tried to see it as simply "reflections", maybe if it was dark? But, I can't see that as anything but blowback, which is a pretty serious issue. I seem to remember the RAIB investigated an incident of blowback some years ago, I don't remember the exact details, but I seem to recall it was on the southern end of the ECML.
 

45107

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In the UK it's as if Health and Safety legislation and safety liabilities are different to that of Switzerland...
The requirement to fence UK railways dates back to the acts of parliament at the time that required railway companies to fence off their land, but I suppose ‘Health and Safety’ is something to blame in today’s environment
 

Mag_seven

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imagine there are better ways to spend one's time than trawling CCTV and YouTube trying to identify some idiot who's wandered a few feet past a 'must not pass this point' sign to take a nice photograph.

I think you will find its more than a few feet - at least one is on the ballast!

but all I see is a few people taking pretty minimal risks with their own safety, and I find it difficult to get exercised by that.

It doesn't matter whether they are taking risks with their own safety or not - they are trespassing, end of.
 

Bertie the bus

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There were 11,711 recorded violent crimes on the railway last year and 2,472 sexual offences. I think the BTP have slightly more important things to be doing than trawling through CCTV of a couple of trespassers on a railway where no trains had passed for 7 ½ hours and none after it for another 10 ½ hours.
 

Bertie the bus

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Of course it is the point when replying to somebody claiming they could be hit by a freight train. But never mind, you just rant away to your heart's content and I'll just ignore you.
 

headshot119

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Of course it is the point when replying to somebody claiming they could be hit by a freight train. But never mind, you just rant away to your heart's content and I'll just ignore you.

Except freight trains like test trains that run.
 

jumble

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The differences in attitudes towards safety even accross Europe are interesting though.

I’ve been to Switzerland for work. The heavy railway runs through towns and Villages with no fencing, just the track on some, nicely maintained shiny Swiss ballast. The carriages were low walk on double deck, the platforms were almost no existent, like a bus stop, and you walked accross the track after you got off...

In the UK it’s as if the railway is radio active and the trains invisible :lol:

One of the most scary things I have ever done was walking at Del Mar in southern California
I have been roughly where the people in the video is at 1.20
I have no desire to repeat this as the wind from the train made me think I would be blown over the edge
The attached link gives one a flavour of what happens there.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/39511315/proposal-to-fence-railroad-in-del-mar
Jumble
 

Mogster

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There’s plenty of videos online from the Swiss railway network. Low level narrow platforms with high speed heavy rail. The shots from platform level with the train mechanicals exposed near the pax do make me cringe, although I assume there’s no problems...

I do remember until the 90s people used to access Wigan Wallgate from the King Street gate, walking accross the track onto the end of platforms :lol:
 

SilentGrade

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There were 11,711 recorded violent crimes on the railway last year and 2,472 sexual offences. I think the BTP have slightly more important things to be doing than trawling through CCTV of a couple of trespassers on a railway where no trains had passed for 7 ½ hours and none after it for another 10 ½ hours.

Are you implying BTP don’t take trespass as a crime seriously because you’re completely in the wrong if so
 

Jonny

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I do remember until the 90s people used to access Wigan Wallgate from the King Street gate, walking across the track onto the end of platforms :lol:

Where was the King Street gate? (just curious)
 

Elecman

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At the corner of King Street and Dorning Street where the private car park is now along with the small Network Rail depot
 

TBSchenker

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Except freight trains like test trains that run.

Indeed . It's regularly used by On Track Machines to and from Guide Bridge, plus engineering trains to and from work sites. Whilst there may not be any booked freight, the Bolton line can be used as a diversionary route, more so now it is fully open at weekends for the first time in about 3 years .

TPE could actually divert that way now with 185s if they so wished .
 

Deepgreen

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Sooner they stop these railtours the better, it's a working railway not an enthusiasts playground.
It's open access - celebrating the railway's heritage is important, and there is considerable income from enthusiasts' activities on the main line. There are irresponsible people in every walk of life, and the "working railway" is far from immune.
 

Deepgreen

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Unfortunately it will take someone being killed before being stopped.
It’s not just the old that get all misty eyed about steam, all ages do it. You only have to be somewhere like Doncaster or York on a Saturday when there’s a steam special running to see people balancing on the edge of the platform as if they’re on a tightrope. That goes for the people on the tours too. I remember back in May 2016 when Flying Scotsman pulled in at York. We were forbidden to pass a certain point on the platform by the BT police yet as soon as the tour percipients arrived off the train of all ages they were allowed to the far end of the platform and snap away at will all in front of the same BT police.
Grumpy & cantankerous they were too. “Out of my way I’m on the tour you know” they bellowed.
I won’t put on here what was said back to him as he waltzed about in his tweed jacket like he owned the platform.

People have already been killed while engaging in enthusiast behaviour - the most recent high profile case probably being the person who was decapitated near Balham when leaning out of a class 442 (in normal service) droplight.

Obnoxious though the 'tweed jacketer' sounds, is it possible that the tour participants ("percipients"?) had been granted access for photographs where others hadn't?
 

Deepgreen

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Pre 80's cant recall this problem, we traveled far and wide with drop lights but took our own safety seriously and didnt put the responsibility on others. We spent many hours on platform ends and again without problem didnt put responsibility on other's. If individuals are stupid enough to put their safety at risk why should others be held responsible? Time to get away from the Nanny state and ambulance chasers and take responsibilities for our own actions

Of course, restrictions come into force gradually. In the '80s there were no yellow lines, and far less attention was paid to platform-enders than today. Along with this, the frequency of main line tours today is much greater. The "nanny state" will never recede, only increase. There may be a time, I suspect not so far away, when people are only allowed onto platforms either when a train has arrived (USA-style) or where there are platform edge doors. Whether 'open access' will exist is anyone's guess, and tours (and any celebration of heritage) may cease altogether if some people have their way.
 

NSEFAN

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Of course, restrictions come into force gradually. In the '80s there were no yellow lines, and far less attention was paid to platform-enders than today. Along with this, the frequency of main line tours today is much greater. The "nanny state" will never recede, only increase. There may be a time, I suspect not so far away, when people are only allowed onto platforms either when a train has arrived (USA-style) or where there are platform edge doors. Whether 'open access' will exist is anyone's guess, and tours (and any celebration of heritage) may cease altogether if some people have their way.
This might be the case for new build stations on high speed lines, or where trains pass platforms at over 125mph (a future possibility at places like Didcot), but theres too much legacy infrastructure in most cases to insist that pax stay off the platforms until the train is arrived. What works on a 1 train per day long-distance Amtrak route with high staffing levels is not necessarily going to work on a multi-tph DOO route.
 

al78

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Perhaps anyone on the 'fury' side of this question should just ask themselves - have I ever crossed a Pelican crossing when the red man was showing?

Not even remotely comparable. A road is a public right of way, everyone has an absolute right to walk on the road (special roads excepted) or cross the road for the purpose of passing and repassing, the red man is advisory, not a legal requirement. Crossing on a red man is safe if you look for traffic before crossing, it is no different to crossing a road where there is no pelican crossing. You can argue that as the pedestrian comes of worst in a collision with a motor vehicle, it is in their best interest to take some responsibility for their own safety and look before crossing, but it is also a legal requirement for a motorist to do what they can to avoid a collision, regardless of whether someone else has put themselves in danger by being careless. An operational railway line is not a public right of way, so people have no right to trespass, put themselves in a hazardous position, and interfere with the safe operation of the railway in doing so.
 

al78

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It's open access - celebrating the railway's heritage is important ...

Is it? It might be desirable in that it makes a pleasant day out for some people but I question if it is important. I don't think lives will be lost or significant economic downturn will occur if it wasn't celebrated.
 
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