More nonsense from the incompetent GTR "Gatwick Express" staff.

[clagmonster]

Whilst clearly not the intended use of the ticket, would walking from Victoria to Blackfriars be a valid non Underground interchange?

 

[MikeWh]

How many ordinary punters would think a NOT UNDERGROUND ticket would be valid on a route which necessitates taking the Underground to complete the rail journey?

Precisely non.

What about my neice who would rather die than travel on an Underground train after a nasty experience many years ago? Then there's the people who would rather take a bus or two, or take a boris bike, or even walk - it's really not that far.

There is NOTHING that compels people to use the Underground for cross London journeys, otherwise there might be issues at night, to say nothing of what happens when those nasty unions decide to close the Underground is on strike.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about my neice who would rather die than travel on an Underground train after a nasty experience many years ago? Then there's the people who would rather take a bus or two, or take a boris bike, or even walk - it's really not that far.

There is NOTHING that compels people to use the Underground for cross London journeys, otherwise there might be issues at night, to say nothing of what happens when those nasty unions decide to close the Underground is on strike.

You are not compelled to *actually use* the Tube. You can use any other option at your cost. (Though I do wish cross London transfers included the bus, as it often makes more sense than the Tube e.g. with heavy luggage and plenty of time to kill).

The point Clip was making, and I agree with him, is that if a given ticket has a specific route restriction, the only routes that make sense to be permitted are those where you can (whether you actually will or not, subject to BoJ being permitted) complete the whole journey without breaching the route restriction. Suggesting, for example, that you could use a WCML to <somewhere on SWT> route Not London ticket to go to and stop short at South Hampstead rather than turning off at Wembley via Kenny O[1] just because South Hampstead isn't "London" would similarly be a nonsense.

But in any case...as St Pancras is in central London, the ticket applicable to your proposed journey is a ticket to London Terminals (can I suggest using GTR's Southern-branded service, as it's cheaper and no slower?) and a separate bus ticket, Bozza bike usage fee or whatever. Or if you want to make other central London journeys by bus etc and it makes sense, an outboundary day Travelcard.

[1] OK, OK, these are routed Kensington Olympia - but it's just an example.

 

[Clip]

What about my neice who would rather die than travel on an Underground train after a nasty experience many years ago? Then there's the people who would rather take a bus or two, or take a boris bike, or even walk - it's really not that far.

There is NOTHING that compels people to use the Underground for cross London journeys, otherwise there might be issues at night, to say nothing of what happens when those nasty unions decide to close the Underground is on strike.

No offence like but would you niece think that a 'Not Underground' ticket really think that she would have to take the tube? Thats what AlterEgo said and I agreed.

P

 

[Paul Kelly]

The point Clip was making, and I agree with him, is that if a given ticket has a specific route restriction, the only routes that make sense to be permitted are those where you can (whether you actually will or not, subject to BoJ being permitted) complete the whole journey without breaching the route restriction.

By that logic an Inverness to Edinburgh ticket routed VTEC ONLY is not valid to start short at Aberdeen and travel from Aberdeen to Edinburgh (on a VTEC service), because you can't make the entire journey from Inverness on a VTEC train. But the general consensus has always been that it's valid to start short like that.

I'm not being an apologist for using a NOT UNDERGROUND ticket to St Pancras via Victoria, far from it (I think it's pushing things too far and would never try it myself), but I do find that most arguments against it tend to fall down when subjected to pedantic analysis.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The point Clip was making...

The way it reads to me, is that MikeWh was resaponding to a point Clip wasn't making!

...
I'm not being an apologist for using a NOT UNDERGROUND ticket to St Pancras via Victoria, far from it (I think it's pushing things too far and would never try it myself), but I do find that most arguments against it tend to fall down when subjected to pedantic analysis.

I am genuinely curious as to the logic behind those who claim it is valid though! I can't see it.

 

[gray1404]

Would you like to volunteer as a test case?

I'm happy to arrive at Victoria with such a ticket.

I really can't see it going off route provided you don't use the underground. And I also believe you can cut your journey short.

 

[Bletchleyite]

By that logic an Inverness to Edinburgh ticket routed VTEC ONLY is not valid to start short at Aberdeen and travel from Aberdeen to Edinburgh (on a VTEC service), because you can't make the entire journey from Inverness on a VTEC train. But the general consensus has always been that it's valid to start short like that.

Interesting, as my view would be that that was not strictly valid (but might be accepted by a guard because it's not really taking the mick).

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm happy to arrive at Victoria with such a ticket.

I really can't see it going off route provided you don't use the underground. And I also believe you can cut your journey short.

So by your logic a Birmingham to London ticket routed VIA HIGH WYCOMBE is fine to use as far as Saunderton, as long as you get off and either finish short or get a taxi to Beaconsfield, where you can then carry on to Marylebone.

It's just laughable.

 

[gray1404]

Please lets keep this one respectful. I'll have to have a look at the mapped routes in the routing guide for say a Brighton to St Pancras Route Not Underground ticket. But I think I would be reasonable to arrive at Victoria and walk to say Blackfriars and continue to St Pancras if you so wished.

 

[MikeWh]

So by your logic a Birmingham to London ticket routed VIA HIGH WYCOMBE is fine to use as far as Saunderton, as long as you get off and either finish short or get a taxi to Beaconsfield, where you can then carry on to Marylebone.

It's just laughable.

I'm clearly missing something here. Saunderton - High Wycombe - Beaconsfield. Three consecutive stations on the same line.

Why wouldn't that be ok? As long as the ticket is valid for BOJ then you are using it in two stages. If you always have to go through the via point then effectively true break of journey can't apply other than at the break point. A break at any other point would mean you wouldn't go through the via point on that segment.

Now obviously it's not a likely scenario, but say you needed to visit someone in/near Saunderton and another person in/near Beaconsfield. The first person also wants to see the second and thus offers you a lift between the two. Are you really saying that the ticket you held would not be valid just because you miss a chunk of the journey that happens to include the via point?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now obviously it's not a likely scenario, but say you needed to visit someone in/near Saunderton and another person in/near Beaconsfield. The first person also wants to see the second and thus offers you a lift between the two. Are you really saying that the ticket you held would not be valid just because you miss a chunk of the journey that happens to include the via point?

I wouldn't go that far. I'd just say that with a routed ticket you generate the set of end to end routes that you could take for the full journey, then you can (unless prohibited) start, stop and break along those routes as you like (but arguably not switch between them, nor do any part of the route more than once).

 

[PermitToTravel]

I'm clearly missing something here. Saunderton - High Wycombe - Beaconsfield. Three consecutive stations on the same line.

Why wouldn't that be ok? As long as the ticket is valid for BOJ then you are using it in two stages. If you always have to go through the via point then effectively true break of journey can't apply other than at the break point. A break at any other point would mean you wouldn't go through the via point on that segment.

Now obviously it's not a likely scenario, but say you needed to visit someone in/near Saunderton and another person in/near Beaconsfield. The first person also wants to see the second and thus offers you a lift between the two. Are you really saying that the ticket you held would not be valid just because you miss a chunk of the journey that happens to include the via point?

Is AlterEgo perhaps thinking of a (needless-to-say, not available IRL) NOT VIA HIGH WYCOMBE ticket?

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm clearly missing something here. Saunderton - High Wycombe - Beaconsfield. Three consecutive stations on the same line.

Why wouldn't that be ok? As long as the ticket is valid for BOJ then you are using it in two stages. If you always have to go through the via point then effectively true break of journey can't apply other than at the break point. A break at any other point would mean you wouldn't go through the via point on that segment.

Now obviously it's not a likely scenario, but say you needed to visit someone in/near Saunderton and another person in/near Beaconsfield. The first person also wants to see the second and thus offers you a lift between the two. Are you really saying that the ticket you held would not be valid just because you miss a chunk of the journey that happens to include the via point?

Sorry, typo: meant to have put a NOT in there (I know no such route exists, it just was a hypothetical example.)

 

[455driver]

Please lets keep this one respectful. I'll have to have a look at the mapped routes in the routing guide for say a Brighton to St Pancras Route Not Understand ticket. But I think I would be reasonable to arrive at Victoria and walk to say Blackfriars and continue to St Pancras if you so wished.

Thats about the most accurate thing you have posted for a while!

 

[infobleep]

There are tickets with routes that allow one to travel via London stations. Whilst its possible to get from Waterloo to London Bridge via Waterloo East, the same couldn't be said of Waterloo to Blackfriars. Thus one needs to walk. One is allowed to walk between stations in a station group for the purposes of interchange.

Not so sure about St Pancras as that's north of Farringdon.

 

[infobleep]

Looked up the routing guide and the pink part lists Brighton group to London Group and the maps are either LB or VB.

When looking at the location point for London group, it is near the British Library and just one point.

I've not checked the easements. If they don't prohibit anything then I'd say it's valid to go via Victoria and walk to St Pancras.

 

[maniacmartin]

I have used a NOT UNDERGROUND season ticket at Victoria a handful of times in the past (not recently). I believe to to be valid because the electronic Routeing guide contains several ways of connecting between certain stations, of which Tube is only one of them. You can see this information in the Fixed Links section of the Station Info for London Victoria on BR times.com .

During the middle of the night Tube isn't offered. Instead there is 'transfer' which means you make your own way at your own cost. Journey planners will produce itineraries for this, and for many other walking interchanges such as Newark Castle to Newark Northgate that are in the database. This is not the case for Saunderton which has no fixed links defined. Thus it is a valid itinerary and is valid if your ticket permits starting short.

That said I do NOT recommend this. I got delayed at the gateline by staff who hadn't even heard of the Routeing guide and missed my intended train.

One other gotcha is the grey area about whether a journey can start of end with a walk. I got my ticket issued with an origin further north than St Pancras so it clearly had an NR leg at both ends to solve this.

 

[talldave]

I have used a NOT UNDERGROUND season ticket at Victoria a handful of times in the past (not recently). I believe to to be valid because the electronic Routeing guide contains several ways of connecting between certain stations, of which Tube is only one of them. You can see this information in the Fixed Links section of the Station Info for London Victoria on BR times.com .

During the middle of the night Tube isn't offered. Instead there is 'transfer' which means you make your own way at your own cost. Journey planners will produce itineraries for this, and for many other walking interchanges such as Newark Castle to Newark Northgate that are in the database. This is not the case for Saunderton which has no fixed links defined. Thus it is a valid itinerary and is valid if your ticket permits starting short.

That said I do NOT recommend this. I got delayed at the gateline by staff who hadn't even heard of the Routeing guide and missed my intended train.

One other gotcha is the grey area about whether a journey can start of end with a walk. I got my ticket issued with an origin further north than St Pancras so it clearly had an NR leg at both ends to solve this.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's somewhat academic whether the routing guide allows it, because it's the barrier staff who will deny knowledge of the routing guide and/or refuse to let you pass.

 

[gray1404]

Yes but as usual with GTR gatelines, when passengers are forced to pay more, they refund the money on demand. Also if a passenger is wanting to exit a gateline with such a ticket, the staff cannot hold you there forever.

Also, I believe GTR has made all their RPIs become OBS so I fall to see what the staff at the gateline could do.

 

[infobleep]

Yes but as usual with GTR gatelines, when passengers are forced to pay more, they refund the money on demand. Also if a passenger is wanting to exit a gateline with such a ticket, the staff cannot hold you there forever.

Also, I believe GTR has made all their RPIs become OBS so I fall to see what the staff at the gateline could do.

I have missed trains before due to discussions on ticket validity. Not at Victoira though.

 

[Merseysider]

I have missed trains before due to discussions on ticket validity. Not at Victoira though.

As have I.

Delay repay, refunds or goodwill from customer services doesn't quite cut it when you have somewhere to be at a given time.