More nonsense from the incompetent GTR "Gatwick Express" staff.

[talldave]

All services on the BML are operated by Govia Thameslink Railway.

Isn't "Not Underground" one of their sub-brands?

 

[matt_world2004]

I get the joke but providing London Underground is not used, it looks valid to me. St Pancras to Victoria (or Blackfriars to Victoria) cross-London interchange doesn't have to be made by LU if the passenger transfers by bus, taxi, cycle or on foot.

Or the passenger could transfer via tube providing they dont use that ticket.

 

[JaJaWa]

Isn't "Not Underground" one of their sub-brands?

That's just reminded me of the time I asked a member of gateline staff at Victoria which trains I could use an Oyster card to Gatwick Airport on – just Southern, or Gatwick Express too and they replied "only the Gatwick Metro". I asked them which service they meant by this and they said it wasn't running yet!!!

 

[mugam4]

All services on the BML are operated by Govia Thameslink Railway.

You know what I mean

 

[yorkie]

You know what I mean

Yes; you mean there is no increase in flexibility, but there is a decrease in the potential that someone will falsely claim your ticket is invalid

Anyway I think you meant London Bridge. The Blackfriars fare is routed "Not Underground": http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BFR&dest=GTW&rte=208&tkt=SDS

From London Bridge, the routeing is "Thameslink Only": http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=LBG&dest=GTW&rte=789&tkt=SDS which means some staff will claim it's not valid on the company's "Southern" branded trains.

However I do believe buying the ticket from St Pancras is the best, and is the least likely to result in hassle (though I'd still expect hassle at VIC platform 13/14 gateline)

 

[Merseysider]

Some more nonsense from the useless gestapo yesterday. A new man working at the barriers (i havent seen him before) didnt like my ticket because the text on the ticket was slanted (it was printed from an Avantix machine which often dont print the text very straght). He said he couldnt tell if it was a real legit ticket! I basically told him that him that he was talking nonsense and after about three minutes of arguing he let me through. I dont see how these people can be this incompetent! I think like others have said they just like to cause trouble!

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

 

[gray1404]

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

agreed.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

None of you are going to believe this, but it's true:


Today I walked up to the Gatwick Express ticket office at Victoria and showed my railcard - which just happened to have my one day Travelcard next to it ( that's how I always keep them ). I asked for "The cheapest day return I can get which I can use on the Express please."

What I was issued with - and had no problem at the barrier with, or on board, either - was a BZ6 to Gatwick cheap day return.



Blimey... maybe someone very high up has had a word with GTR?

 

[Dhassell]

None of you are going to believe this, but it's true:


Today I walked up to the Gatwick Express ticket office at Victoria and showed my railcard - which just happened to have my one day Travelcard next to it ( that's how I always keep them ). I asked for "The cheapest day return I can get which I can use on the Express please."

What I was issued with - and had no problem at the barrier with, or on board, either - was a BZ6 to Gatwick cheap day return.



Blimey... maybe someone very high up has had a word with GTR?

Or maybe staff did what they are trained to do? Not exactly a surprise that they did it correctly....

 

[yorkie]

Or maybe staff did what they are trained to do? Not exactly a surprise that they did it correctly....

It shouldn't be a surprise, but it is a surprise to me.

A couple of weeks ago they were saying the next train to Gatwick was in 29mins (there were various other trains before then) and that the cheapest way was to pay £19.90.

Either they've been re-trained or they had someone different to usual. Maybe they're sort of their usual staff and got someone from their "Southern" branded ticket office to cover. I don't know. But that hasn't been the norm.

They've even refused to sell PRIV tickets to Brighton!

 

[Busaholic]

None of you are going to believe this, but it's true:


Today I walked up to the Gatwick Express ticket office at Victoria and showed my railcard - which just happened to have my one day Travelcard next to it ( that's how I always keep them ). I asked for "The cheapest day return I can get which I can use on the Express please."

What I was issued with - and had no problem at the barrier with, or on board, either - was a BZ6 to Gatwick cheap day return.



Blimey... maybe someone very high up has had a word with GTR?

Perhaps he/she liked the look of you?!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Perhaps he/she liked the look of you?!

This is three different members of staff, remember:

* Ticket office clerk
* Bloke on the barrier
* Bloke on board the train looking at tickets

 

[Busaholic]

This is three different members of staff, remember:

* Ticket office clerk
* Bloke on the barrier
* Bloke on board the train looking at tickets

You obviously have a magnetic personality.

 

[talldave]

This is three different members of staff, remember:

* Ticket office clerk
* Bloke on the barrier
* Bloke on board the train looking at tickets

It's just a rogue ticket office employee, who'll probably be fired if someone in GTR reads this .

I thought travelcards worked the barrier, thus negating the need for red gestapo interaction?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I thought travelcards worked the barrier, thus negating the need for red gestapo interaction?

They were looking at all the tickets and then using their own stuff to open the barriers for everyone - so I didn't get a chance to test that.

 

[paddington]

They were looking at all the tickets and then using their own stuff to open the barriers for everyone - so I didn't get a chance to test that.

Why didn't you try using the travelcard in the barrier?

Did you use the ticket at the Gatwick barriers or did you get a human to open it as well?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Why didn't you try using the travelcard in the barrier?

Did you use the ticket at the Gatwick barriers or did you get a human to open it as well?

For the first - because the bloke opened the barrier before I could put the Travelcard in the slot.

For the second; neither as I stayed on the platforms in order to get the first new haulage back to London.

 

[testman]

Hi

Long-time lurker here, decided to register! Just wanted to add my 2 pence over the whole Gatwick Express discussion here.

I think it's a shame that Gatwick Express isn't a separate franchise, because it might avoid some of the misunderstanding with tickets, especially with staff.

When it was separate, I believe the routes had a higher-priority than other routes and trains on those routes, and it was clear that this was the quickest way to Gatwick Airport.

I vaguely remembered some discussion about making it a "stopping" service, and also why it seems to have disproportionately higher priority over other routes when the train isn't full a lot of the time. It seems that some people weren't happy with the inefficiencies of having a Gatwick Express train service compared to others i.e. Southern when the latter has trouble adhering to times, reliability, etc.

So they merged it with the franchise that Southern runs on, right? And now this means that unlike before the company that now owns them both (as brands, GTR) can rearrange the timetable to run the trains from both services more closely together, right? The side effect being that Gatwick Express services aren't now much quicker (if at all)? But they have probably partly solved the inefficiencies problem, right?

So now Gatwick Express is just a brand in a legal sense and in a practical sense, so why not just drop it altogether and use the Southern name on its routes (like what some of you were calling for), right?

Won't ever happen - the "Gatwick Express" brand still has a "premium" feel to it, and therefore is still very valuable, so even though there's little practical reason to have a different brand operational-wise, it'll stay as it also allows GTR to charge more for that specific route (i.e. the non-stop route). So it's "Express" in a premium service kinda way, not in a "faster than other routes" kind of way (which is how I always interpreted "Express", not as a indicator of average speed as one other poster suggested earlier). I also do agree with another poster's assertion that it also has its place as a "segregator" to keep tourists on their purpose-built trains (specific luggage spaces, etc.) and to advertise the route from and to Gatwick, even though tourists are free to use slower more general routes.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Hi

Long-time lurker here, decided to register! Just wanted to add my 2 pence over the whole Gatwick Express discussion here.

I think it's a shame that Gatwick Express isn't a separate franchise, because it might avoid some of the misunderstanding with tickets, especially with staff.

When it was separate, I believe the routes had a higher-priority than other routes and trains on those routes, and it was clear that this was the quickest way to Gatwick Airport.

I vaguely remembered some discussion about making it a "stopping" service, and also why it seems to have disproportionately higher priority over other routes when the train isn't full a lot of the time. It seems that some people weren't happy with the inefficiencies of having a Gatwick Express train service compared to others i.e. Southern when the latter has trouble adhering to times, reliability, etc.

So they merged it with the franchise that Southern runs on, right? And now this means that unlike before the company that now owns them both (as brands, GTR) can rearrange the timetable to run the trains from both services more closely together, right? The side effect being that Gatwick Express services aren't now much quicker (if at all)? But they have probably partly solved the inefficiencies problem, right?

So now Gatwick Express is just a brand in a legal sense and in a practical sense, so why not just drop it altogether and use the Southern name on its routes (like what some of you were calling for), right?

Won't ever happen - the "Gatwick Express" brand still has a "premium" feel to it, and therefore is still very valuable, so even though there's little practical reason to have a different brand operational-wise, it'll stay as it also allows GTR to charge more for that specific route (i.e. the non-stop route). So it's "Express" in a premium service kinda way, not in a "faster than other routes" kind of way (which is how I always interpreted "Express", not as a indicator of average speed as one other poster suggested earlier). I also do agree with another poster's assertion that it also has its place as a "segregator" to keep tourists on their purpose-built trains (specific luggage spaces, etc.) and to advertise the route from and to Gatwick, even though tourists are free to use slower more general routes.

How is GatEx a premium service in anything other than the minds of the DfT and GTR? The first class seating is identical to the standard and it isn't even the fastest way to Gatwick.

 

[AlterEgo]

How is GatEx a premium service in anything other than the minds of the DfT and GTR? The first class seating is identical to the standard and it isn't even the fastest way to Gatwick.

It's a premium brand, not a premium service. There is a difference!

 

[yorkie]

...s it also allows GTR to charge more for that specific route (i.e. the non-stop route)....

There is nothing in the TSA that permits them to charge a higher fare for a particular route branding. The TSA is very clear on the matter. An operator can charge an operator-specific fare, but cannot charge a brand-specific fare. Passengers wrongly charged extra can claim a refund. All 3 forum members I'm aware of who were charged extra got refunds, including dvboy who posted a thread (back in Southern days, pre-GTR): Southern admit they were wrong to sell GX "supplement".

So it's "Express" in a premium service kinda way, not in a "faster than other routes" kind of way (which is how I always interpreted "Express", not as a indicator of average speed as one other poster suggested earlier)..

Yes the company wants people to think it's faster, when in reality it's often slower, particularly at the times most people travel: http://www.fastjp.com/#journeys?orig=VIC&dest=GTW&odate=20170515&otime=1650&maxres=11&maxch=0

I also do agree with another poster's assertion that it also has its place as a "segregator" to keep tourists on their purpose-built trains (specific luggage spaces, etc.) and to advertise the route from and to Gatwick, even though tourists are free to use slower more general routes.

This is totally incorrect. At busy times, the trains are packed with commuters. The trains are not purpose-built at all; they are almost identical to their 387 trains on the company's Southern & Thameslink branded routes. They were an off-the-shelf design which didn't even have provision for 1st class seating! And, at busy times, I think you mean tourists are free to use the faster trains? Yes, they are free to do so, but the slower ones are what they'll be mislead into paying more for.

At off-peak times the "Express" is booked for 30 minutes (often late or cancelled) while their longer distance trains are booked for 31 minutes. To 'save' 1 minute you're charged £19.80 vs £8.10 (comparing Gatwick to Victoria off-peak using Contactless / Oyster PAYG).

From Brighton to London, their "Express" branded trains are consistently slower throughout the day.

How is GatEx a premium service in anything other than the minds of the DfT and GTR? The first class seating is identical to the standard and it isn't even the fastest way to Gatwick.

Very true. But the company is very effective at misleading people. Looks like even testman has been duped! They can get very angry when anyone exposes the truth.

 

[testman]

OK, thanks for the clarifications people. I think I'm in agreement with you though yorkie and cjmillsnun, in that they use the brand to promote a "premium" feel, even if the reality is different.

But as for the pricing, this is something that confuses me. You say yorkie that they're specifically not allowed, but how come the Express service has its own pricing? Or am I interpreting stuff wrong? Genuine question, I'm in need of your expert advice!

 

[yorkie]

OK, thanks for the clarifications people. I think I'm in agreement with you though yorkie and cjmillsnun, in that they use the brand to promote a "premium" feel, even if the reality is different.

But as for the pricing, this is something that confuses me. You say yorkie that they're specifically not allowed, but how come the Express service has its own pricing? Or am I interpreting stuff wrong? Genuine question, I'm in need of your expert advice!

The company has over-inflated fares between Gatwick and Victoria with the routeing "Any Permitted"; these are not in any way dedicated fares.

Fares for longer journeys are typically cheaper. At a weekend, you can travel from Brighton to London, do unlimited travel on tubes/buses/trains in Zones 1-6 and go back to Brighton, and pay less money than someone who just boards the same train from Gatwick to Victoria, and sits next to you for a quarter of the time you're travelling on the company's trains.

Between Gatwick and London (and some other flows via Gatwick) they have some legacy fares with routeings that are no longer TSA-complaint. This is because the DfT won't let them get rid of them for various reasons. Tourists pay the inflated fares, those 'in the know' can usually either talk their way out of being charged extra, or successfully get a refund if they are wrongly charged more.

As for Oyster/Contactless, they get away with it by having 'premium' readers at Platforms 13/14 at Victoria. They're in cahoots with the DfT on this; it's not simply GTR's doing. The DfT is happy to rake in the extra cash; many people remember the old days of a dedicated InterCity service, so simply assume that they're getting a better product, while many others simply don't realise the company's cheaper trains take around 31 minutes.

If you're on a GX branded train which uses any other platform, the premium is not charged. If you're on a SN branded train which uses Platforms 13/14, then you get charged the premium if you tap the premium readers, which has happened to several people. In theory they are meant to direct people to the cheaper readers via Platform 12 but this doesn't always happen.

They get away with it because anyone who demands a refund, gets it, they don't want it to ever be challenged in court.

Tourists just pay nearly £20 without quibble and don't realise they can do the same journey for £8.10

If you want to see a video full of lies, see this video from when Govia took over:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FJP8QgNbZ4
[youtube]_FJP8QgNbZ4[/youtube]
I don't think a single promise in that video was kept!

 

[NSEFAN]

It's a premium brand, not a premium service. There is a difference!

A.k.a a cashcow.

 

[gray1404]

Yes; you mean there is no increase in flexibility, but there is a decrease in the potential that someone will falsely claim your ticket is invalid

Anyway I think you meant London Bridge. The Blackfriars fare is routed "Not Underground": http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BFR&dest=GTW&rte=208&tkt=SDS

From London Bridge, the routeing is "Thameslink Only": http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=LBG&dest=GTW&rte=789&tkt=SDS which means some staff will claim it's not valid on the company's "Southern" branded trains.

However I do believe buying the ticket from St Pancras is the best, and is the least likely to result in hassle (though I'd still expect hassle at VIC platform 13/14 gateline)

I think its time to test using some of these Not Underground tickets to/from St Pancras at Victoria. I am convinced that arriving/departing Victoria is NOT going off route in any way. Also, I am convinced that if charged extra/PF it will be refunded.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I think its time to test using some of these Not Underground tickets to/from St Pancras at Victoria. I am convinced that arriving/departing Victoria is NOT going off route in any way. Also, I am convinced that if charged extra/PF it will be refunded.

I'm not. However would you like to try and convince me?

 

[Merseysider]

I think its time to test using some of these Not Underground tickets to/from St Pancras at Victoria. I am convinced that arriving/departing Victoria is NOT going off route in any way. Also, I am convinced that if charged extra/PF it will be refunded.

Would you like to volunteer as a test case?

 

[AlterEgo]

I think its time to test using some of these Not Underground tickets to/from St Pancras at Victoria. I am convinced that arriving/departing Victoria is NOT going off route in any way. Also, I am convinced that if charged extra/PF it will be refunded.

What's your logic behind this?

Simply deciding to "walk" between Victoria and St Pancras does not have any bearing on the route and its permissibility.

While I admire the buccaneering stance of some members in this section, I can't help but think you need to pick your battles! GTR is a mess. GX is a mess. But focus on the things which ordinary consumers will be most affected by, like the fact there's no designated rolling stock, or the false advertising - rather than trying to push the boundaries of a NOT UNDERGROUND ticket. How many ordinary punters would think a NOT UNDERGROUND ticket would be valid on a route which necessitates taking the Underground to complete the rail journey?

 

[Clip]

How many ordinary punters would think a NOT UNDERGROUND ticket would be valid on a route which necessitates taking the Underground to complete the rail journey?

Precisely non.

Would you like to volunteer as a test case?

Ive asked this on numerous threads by numerous posters in teh past but unsurprisingly none of them want to test out things themselves but seem to be happy to encourage others to do so.

Which is why I agree strongly with AlterEgo about picking your battles - and why would you really want to give yourself extra stress and hassle over a principle I will never know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't entirely get why they have restricted it in that way anyway. National Rail tickets are not valid on the Underground unless specified or unless it's a section with general dual availability. So surely these should be routed CITY THAMESLINK or somesuch.