More Oyster on Buses

[Gerald Fiennes]

Alright, not strictly a rail issue but anyone got any thoughts on the quite common scenario I see of young people getting on TfL buses ahead of me, and the Oyster machine flashing up 'Freedom Pass'. This happens perhaps once every 30 to 50 times I board a bus. Now, it's possible that some are legitimate holders of a Freedom Pass (through disability of some kind). The Drivers only have to listen for the beep, not what kind of Oyster is being used and the last time I saw a bus inspector in these parts I was in short trousers and school lunches were 2/6 a week (= 12.5p for anyone born after 1965 or so...) The CCTV will capture pictures of most of bus pax, so is it worth reporting to TfL? Would they care?

 

[Squaddie]

Many people are entitled to a Freedom Pass, including those who are deaf, who have a learning disability or who would be refused a driving licence on medical grounds.

If you're going to report suspected misuse of a Freedom Pass you're going to have to be very, very certain of your case to avoid embarrassment and distress. It's probably best just to leave it to the driver or ticket inspector.

 

[RJ]

I used to be a bus driver on TfL services. The ticket machine on the driver's side flashes up with "Freedom Pass D" for disabled or "Freedom Pass E" for elderly and actually shows all other discounts loaded onto Oyster Cards. Every single driver on TfL services is required to carry pass withdrawal forms or else face a rather steep financial penalty if caught by an inspector without one. TfL are known for taking a hard line on Freedom Pass misuse and bus drivers can play a role in identifying potential misuse.

I did pay close attention to what the machine said when cards were validated and also looked every single boarding passenger in the eye as they got on. Freedom Passes are commonly withdrawn when it's evident that the holder was not entitled to use it, i.e they're not the person shown on the photograph. I only asked to see the photocard if it flashed up as Freedom Pass E and the holder looked nowhere near the age of eligibility, or if the machine displayed "Freedom Pass stopped." I was surprised that people who knew they were misusing the passes handed them over instead of turning around and making off.

Some drivers consider checking passenger's tickets or chasing payment for those who deliberately board without paying as a nuisance chore, whilst others take it seriously. Regardless, if they're prepared to let it go then it's unlikely they will get out of their cab and seek out the passenger if it's reported at the time. TfL (quite handsomely!) pay ticket inspectors to do the job and judging by the threads appearing on the Consumer Action Group forum, they do catch quite a lot of people out. It is rare to see them - I used to drive through some of the most deprived parts of London where fare evasion was rife and received plenty of death threats for stopping evaders. In several months, I only ever had one inspector board my bus - and that was on the Kings Road/Sloane Square in Chelsea.

A report to TfL may result in direct action - after all, we saw on The Tube that their inspectors work with the CCTV operators to catch out fare evaders. However, as I say they do pay ticket inspectors and try to encourage drivers to be proactive so rest assured they are already on it!

 

[Antman]

Many London bus drivers just sit and stare out of the windscreen listening to the bleeps and taking little notice of any paper passes that are waved in their direction, some will even ignore a 'double bleep' which means an invalid oystercard.

I've not seen ticket inspectors on a London bus for 15-20 years if not longer and I am quite a regular user.

 

[Deerfold]

Many London bus drivers just sit and stare out of the windscreen listening to the bleeps and taking little notice of any paper passes that are waved in their direction, some will even ignore a 'double bleep' which means an invalid oystercard.

I've not seen ticket inspectors on a London bus for 15-20 years if not longer and I am quite a regular user.

That's odd. I usually see them 2-3 times a year - and I only spend 3.5 days a week in London.

 

[Antman]

That's odd. I usually see them 2-3 times a year - and I only spend 3.5 days a week in London.

Well 2 to 3 a year isn't exactly a lot, you obviously travel on different buses to me.

What are they inspecting? With a flat fare there is no over riding and as the vast majority have oysters now they either touch in or they don't and its up to the driver to ensure that they do. Anybody up to anything dodgy is likely to get off when they see an inspector.

 

[Be3G]

I encounter a ticket inspector perhaps once every other year. Judging from the many times I heard them say “can I see your photocard please” to other passengers, they're checking that people aren't using Oyster cards they've ‘borrowed’ off other people.

 

[Deerfold]

Well 2 to 3 a year isn't exactly a lot, you obviously travel on different buses to me.

What are they inspecting? With a flat fare there is no over riding and as the vast majority have oysters now they either touch in or they don't and its up to the driver to ensure that they do. Anybody up to anything dodgy is likely to get off when they see an inspector.

It's a lot more than none in 20 years!

There are people who manage to get on with no pass or ticket - perhaps harder than on the Underground but it certainly happens. Out-of-date travelcards, illegal use of other people's staff cards, freedom passes etc. I get checked on the Underground more than most people as the gates can indicate when I'm using a staff pass.

 

[Antman]

It's a lot more than none in 20 years!

There are people who manage to get on with no pass or ticket - perhaps harder than on the Underground but it certainly happens. Out-of-date travelcards, illegal use of other people's staff cards, freedom passes etc. I get checked on the Underground more than most people as the gates can indicate when I'm using a staff pass.

I'm sure there are a small number of people pulling a fast one but they tend to get off as soon as an inspector gets on, probably cheaper in the long run to let them get away with it that spend vast sums of money on inspectors.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm sure there are a small number of people pulling a fast one but they tend to get off as soon as an inspector gets on, probably cheaper in the long run to let them get away with it that spend vast sums of money on inspectors.

They'll have fun. Inspectors rarely travel alone. And many operations see them accompanied by the police.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm sure there are a small number of people pulling a fast one but they tend to get off as soon as an inspector gets on, probably cheaper in the long run to let them get away with it that spend vast sums of money on inspectors.

They'll have fun. Inspectors rarely travel alone. And many operations see them accompanied by the police.

And recently I was stopped getting off in Bexleyheath by a group of 6 or so inspectors surrounding the exit door of the bus.

 

[Be3G]

Indeed, that's the way I see bus inspectors work: a whole group of them ‘storming’ a bus, checking everyone before letting the bus continue on its journey, and dragging perpetrators off to speak to waiting police.

 

[telstarbox]

They also check the validity of paper tickets eg asking to see a Railcard when the passenger has a Railcard-discounted Day Travelcard.

 

[bicbasher]

When I've travelled with my mother who has an elderly Freedom Pass, I've never seen a RPI on the buses or London Overground check the pass with the hand held readers to check for validity. It's normally a quick look and move on.

 

[Mojo]

When I've travelled with my mother who has an elderly Freedom Pass, I've never seen a RPI on the buses or London Overground check the pass with the hand held readers to check for validity. It's normally a quick look and move on.

There's no need to check with the reader for validity if the pass is visible.

 

[paddington]

Over the past 5 years using a mixture of anonymous / registered, PAYG / travelcard oysters, I have been checked by RPIs many times on buses with handheld readers. I'd say at least 20% of the time an irregularity is found. It's usually people not paying when they get on and the driver is late and can't be bothered to argue, or schoolkids (who just get the next bus anyway)

Here is a list of places where I've been checked in roughly temporal order:

Kensington Palace
Baker Street
approaching Uxbridge
Northolt
Dulwich
Shepherd's Bush
Ponder's End
Forty Hill (on the W10 !!)
Horseferry Road (507)
Edmonton Green
Wood Green

 

[transmanche]

I'd say at least 20% of the time an irregularity is found. It's usually people not paying when they get on and the driver is late and can't be bothered to argue, or schoolkids (who just get the next bus anyway)

I don't understand the schoolkids part. They don't pay anyway - or if you mean they're using someone else's Zip card, then surely the card would be withdrawn?

 

[island]

There's no need to check with the reader for validity if the pass is visible.

But couldn't the pass have been hotlisted?

 

[Mojo]

But couldn't the pass have been hotlisted?

If the pass bears a true likeness of the holder, even if it has been cancelled, then company policy dictates that you still allow them travel, so scanning it would be pointless as you have to allow travel anyway.

 

[Antman]

Indeed, that's the way I see bus inspectors work: a whole group of them ‘storming’ a bus, checking everyone before letting the bus continue on its journey, and dragging perpetrators off to speak to waiting police.

It would be interesting to know just how much operations like this cost, and how much lost revenue (if any) is recouped. There is also the delay to bus services, surely any ticket checks should take place on the move? Oh and I really cannot imagine any inspectors "dragging perpetrators off":roll:

 

[Mojo]

It would be interesting to know just how much operations like this cost, and how much lost revenue (if any) is recouped. There is also the delay to bus services, surely any ticket checks should take place on the move? Oh and I really cannot imagine any inspectors "dragging perpetrators off":roll:

I doubt they cost anything more as you are already paying Inspectors. Police like working on exercises like this as also helps them detect crime, and often people stopped for the most stupid of things like no ticket tend to have something else on them which the police are interested in.

 

[Antman]

I doubt they cost anything more as you are already paying Inspectors. Police like working on exercises like this as also helps them detect crime, and often people stopped for the most stupid of things like no ticket tend to have something else on them which the police are interested in.

Oh yes I appreciate that the police may happen to stumble across somebody who is wanted for more serious matters which is one reason why a bigger police presence on public transport generally would be useful but I cannot help but wonder why large numbers of inspectors are really needed on a flat fare system where oysters and passes should be checked by the driver. Maybe these inspectors do other jobs as well? They certainly don't appear on and buses I travel on.

 

[island]

They are checking the driver as well as the passengers.

 

[Mojo]

Oh yes I appreciate that the police may happen to stumble across somebody who is wanted for more serious matters which is one reason why a bigger police presence on public transport generally would be useful but I cannot help but wonder why large numbers of inspectors are really needed on a flat fare system where oysters and passes should be checked by the driver. Maybe these inspectors do other jobs as well? They certainly don't appear on and buses I travel on.

According to a Freedom of Information Act request, in 2010/11 TfL Surface Transport employed 276 Inspectors.

With 49.5 Million journeys made a week on London's buses; significantly more than the entire National Rail network, and around 7,500 vehicles in the fleet; simple probabilities suggest that you are unlikely to come across one.

FWIW, I have seen a few TfL Inspectors about but have never been checked by one.

 

[Tom C]

Back when I was an RPI we were on an operation and a guy was stopped who had come from the previous station or so he said (it didn't really matter as all singles were 90p back then). He was then searched by the BTP and was found with enough weed to get you high from 50 paces away.

The sensible ones buy tickets because they know what could happen for the sake of a few quid.

 

[Urban Gateline]

If the pass bears a true likeness of the holder, even if it has been cancelled, then company policy dictates that you still allow them travel, so scanning it would be pointless as you have to allow travel anyway.

Also, not sure if TFL MoVie readers display the same, but ours at SWT just show the wording "Freedom Pass" if we scan a Freedom Pass with the reader, so it's a bit pointless as it doesn't give any other information about the person or Journey history, but as Mojo says, the former can be found on the card itself anyway.

 

[Mojo]

Also, not sure if TFL MoVie readers display the same, but ours at SWT just show the wording "Freedom Pass" if we scan a Freedom Pass with the reader, so it's a bit pointless as it doesn't give any other information about the person or Journey history, but as Mojo says, the former can be found on the card itself anyway.

It does give the journey history (last 8 rail/bus journeys, and last bus journey) if you click the 'Next' button. If the card has been cancelled it will show 'Card Cancelled' when it has been scanned. London Underground Inspectors and ticket sellers have access to a 'Staff Oyster Help Line' which can be called and automatically reads out details on the card, including the name to whom it is registered. I do not know if TfL staff or NR staff have access to a similar facility.

 

[Flamingo]

I have known of operations where a TM/RPI/ATE goes out along with plain-clothes BTP, the lack of a ticket when asked gives the BTP an excuse to intervene and delve further. Some of these "fishing expeditions" can be very fruitful.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Ive seen Inspectors on a Stagecoach bus and Police on a First Bus in london the first one was due to drunks and violence between hammersmith and euston

 

[transmanche]

I have known of operations where a TM/RPI/ATE goes out along with plain-clothes BTP, the lack of a ticket when asked gives the BTP an excuse to intervene and delve further. Some of these "fishing expeditions" can be very fruitful.

A bit like you see on those 'Police Camera Crash Death' tv programmes. Police are well aware that stopping someone for something minor (e.g. no seatbelt, illegal number plate) very often leads to uncovering something more serious (e.g. drink-driving, no licence, no insurance, or other criminal activity).