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More police misbehaviour: are they trying to deliberately wind the public up?

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yorkie

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Although the evening vigil at Clapham Common was cancelled, people still gathered at its bandstand to lay flowers and pay their respects throughout the day.

Sisters Uncut, which campaigns to prevent violence against women, said it planned to attend the Clapham vigil despite the organisers' cancellation.
What the BBC aren't (yet?) reporting is the poor behaviour by police which is readily available on social media, such as:

Women being snatched by police at the vigil for Sarah Everard. Shameful, shameful scenes.
One of your colleagues allegedly murdered a woman @metpoliceuk. That’s why women are gathering to mourn. And now you’re brutalising them.

Here are some excellent observations (as always) from Adam Wagner:
Police have a legal duty under the human rights act to facilitate lawful protest. They knew that whatever they did people would be there. But rather than being seen to lose face as they had interpreted the law wrong (that protest is automatically unlawful), they doubled down
The @metpoliceuk had the advantage of a supremely responsible group of organisers - a number of of whom are local councillors (I worked with them intensively over 2 days and was hugely impressed). They could have worked together to do this responsibly. Instead look what happened
The @metpoliceuk had repeated opportunities in recent days to agree a path forward. After the hearing on Friday when the High Court made clear protests (or vigils) could not be automatically unlawful, there was a window to agree some version of the vigil. They refused.

Yet again the police have been caught behaving in a disgraceful manner; they appear to be trying to turn the public against them as much as possible.

We do NOT consent!

If there are any police officers reading this, please talk to your Unions, please talk to your commanding officers, and please urge that the force stops behaving in such a disgraceful manner.

I would hugely respect any officer who threatens to resign over police behaviour during this pandemic. If I worked for an organisation that was acting in such a way, I would be threatening to resign, for sure.
 
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nedchester

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It's a difficult one this.

Firstly, I think taking away the right to protest is appalling

BUT

The police are there to uphold the law as it stands. The people involved were warned that they could/would be given FPN's so they knew what might be coming. So if the police have threatened to fine the protesters then sadly they have to go through with that threat otherwise people won't believe them in other instances. After they fined a woman last week at the NHS protest in Manchester.

I do suspect any fines will get dropped after the event though.........
 

yorkie

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The police are there to uphold the law as it stands.
But it's not as simple as upholding "the law"; Coronavirus legislation does not trump human rights legislation.

The people involved were warned that they could/would be given FPN's so they knew what might be coming.
Those organisers bailed out as a result.

So if the police have threatened to fine the protesters then sadly they have to go through with that threat otherwise people won't believe them in other instances.
The people they wrongly threatened chose to withdraw from the situation.

After they fined a woman last week at the NHS protest in Manchester.
Yes that was another utterly disgraceful act by the police.

I do suspect any fines will get dropped after the event though.........
Yes I believe so.

I am sure that any fines will be contested in the courts, and it sounds like the police would be on the losing side.

They may do a Derbyshire police and rescind any fines before they can be challenged in court.

The police who have been manhandling women today are cowards (I'd love to say that to their faces)!
 

nedchester

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But it's not as simple as upholding "the law"; Coronavirus legislation does not trump human rights legislation.


Those organisers bailed out as a result.


The people they wrongly threatened chose to withdraw from the situation.


Yes that was another utterly disgraceful act by the police.


Yes I believe so.

I am sure that any fines will be contested in the courts, and it sounds like the police would be on the losing side.

They may do a Derbyshire police and rescind any fines before they can be challenged in court.

The police who have been manhandling women today are cowards (I'd love to say that to their faces)!
As I say I don't agree with the law and I'd be interested the human rights / coronavirus argument tried out in court. Possibly the courts might say that health protection trumps all. As usual many see a black and white argument whereas the reality is a shade of grey (not 50 though!)

I reckon you'd say NOTHING to the police because you'd be too scared!
 

yorkie

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I think not!

BBC are now reporting:


Scuffles ensued after hundreds gathered on London's Clapham Common to pay tribute to the murdered 33-year-old despite planned vigils being cancelled.
Some women who were speaking at the event were removed by police, to cries of "shame on you" from the crowd.

Lambeth police tweeted that the vigil was "unsafe" but female MPs criticised their actions as "heavy-handed".
After the clashes in Clapham, Charlotte Nichols, shadow minister for women and equalities, tweeted: "If metpoliceuk had put the resources into assisting ReclaimTS to hold the covid-secure vigil originally planned that they put into stopping any collective show of grief and solidarity (both through the courts and a heavy-handed physical response), we'd all be in a better place."
Shameful behaviour by the police; how can anyone justify this? it's beyond my comprehension.
 

LMS 4F

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There appears to be a lot of misunderstanding about the Police here. There are not any Unions for Police Officers. There is the Federation for officers up to Chief Inspector rank, a Superintendents Association and the Association of Chief Police Officers for the very top ranks. None of these is the same as a Union and actions such as strikes etc would leave people open to facing criminal charges.
As to manhandling charges Officers are allowed to use force and if people decide not to move them this may well be lawful. Ultimately the Courts would decide if necessary.
I would suggest that a lot of the officers on duty at this and many other such events would rather be elsewhere but it is a disciplined organisation and they won’t have had a choice.
There will be some officers with questionable manner and attitude but in an organisation of this size that is I would suggest unavoidable.
The Police are the ones in the middle all to often and if the legislation is flawed they are left with the mess to clear up.
In my experience quick law is often bad law.
 

nedchester

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There appears to be a lot of misunderstanding about the Police here. There are not any Unions for Police Officers. There is the Federation for officers up to Chief Inspector rank, a Superintendents Association and the Association of Chief Police Officers for the very top ranks. None of these is the same as a Union and actions such as strikes etc would leave people open to facing criminal charges.
As to manhandling charges Officers are allowed to use force and if people decide not to move them this may well be lawful. Ultimately the Courts would decide if necessary.
I would suggest that a lot of the officers on duty at this and many other such events would rather be elsewhere but it is a disciplined organisation and they won’t have had a choice.
There will be some officers with questionable manner and attitude but in an organisation of this size that is I would suggest unavoidable.
The Police are the ones in the middle all to often and if the legislation is flawed they are left with the mess to clear up.
In my experience quick law is often bad law.
I'd agree with that.

Badly thought out law leading to the police doing a near impossible job.
 

yorkie

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Sorry but this excuse does not wash with me.

Such behaviour is inhuman and effectively makes them enemies of the people.

It looks to me like the police are guilty of assault, breaching the peace, outraging public decency and probably more.

Look how they act; look at their show of aggression. This is not normal. This is not acceptable. We do not consent.
 

WelshBluebird

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I wonder if this belongs in the general section instead? Whilst yes there's obviously a covid specific element here, I don't think that is the entirety of the argument. Especially given the guy who has been charged with the murder is a copper, I can't help feel there's some closing of ranks going on with this reaction (I.e. you've made us look ****ty and have dared to discuss in public how we have failed you, so here's your punishment). I have a suspicion that they would have found a reason to react like this regardless of covid (after all the met especially have a pretty awful track record regarding peaceful protect and the like).
 

bramling

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But it's not as simple as upholding "the law"; Coronavirus legislation does not trump human rights legislation.


Those organisers bailed out as a result.


The people they wrongly threatened chose to withdraw from the situation.


Yes that was another utterly disgraceful act by the police.


Yes I believe so.

I am sure that any fines will be contested in the courts, and it sounds like the police would be on the losing side.

They may do a Derbyshire police and rescind any fines before they can be challenged in court.

The police who have been manhandling women today are cowards (I'd love to say that to their faces)!

Whilst I to a large extent absolutely agree with what's been said about the police in this thread (and others), for me the ultimate blame for all this still lies largely with the politicians. The buck for police matters stops with Priti Patel.
 

yorkie

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Blimey; I'm even in agreement with @WelshBluebird o_O
Whilst I to a large extent absolutely agree with what's been said about the police in this thread (and others), for me the ultimate blame for all this still lies largely with the politicians.
True; the likes of Priti Patel and her ilk must go.
 

BJames

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This has really hit home with a lot of people (i.e. all (or almost all) women, and many males too who support them) and as such it's the first protest in which almost everyone is united. It's not an anti-lockdown protest or a BLM protest, and what I've seen on social media is the most anti-police sentiment I have seen since the start of this. People are willing to break the regulations to attend these protests, and since everyone is doing so 2m distanced and with masks, those who wouldn't have attended previous protests would be willing to attend this one.
Whilst I to a large extent absolutely agree with what's been said about the police in this thread (and others), for me the ultimate blame for all this still lies largely with the politicians.
Agreed - I think the met discussed this with the policing minister who was "supportive" but ultimately said these shouldn't go ahead. Some MPs pushing for a change now - see Steve Baker MP on Twitter https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1370839353275088900

Edit: in answer to the actual question in the thread title, some of the way the police are pushing these women about genuinely is starting to seem like a wind up. They don't seem to see how they are being perceived anymore, or perhaps they just don't care.
 

LMS 4F

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The fact that man charged is a serving officer is nothing to do with what is happening at the vigil. If anything the Police should be given credit for apparently clearing up this appalling crime promptly.
 

brad465

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I wonder if this belongs in the general section instead? Whilst yes there's obviously a covid specific element here, I don't think that is the entirety of the argument. Especially given the guy who has been charged with the murder is a copper, I can't help feel there's some closing of ranks going on with this reaction (I.e. you've made us look ****ty and have dared to discuss in public how we have failed you, so here's your punishment).
I've got this thread in the GD section, but it's primarily about legislation currently going through Parliament that seeks to restrict protesting, however this issue is a demonstration of how to restrict protesting maybe counterproductive.

I do wonder if this issue, the restrictions on protesting and the police attitude here will accelerate resentment to Covid restrictions, a lot of people I've seen in support of restrictions have been on the side of the protestors on this issue and condemned police behaviour.
 

yorkie

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The fact that man charged is a serving officer is nothing to do with what is happening at the vigil. If anything the Police should be given credit for apparently clearing up this appalling crime promptly.
You are joking, right?!

I do wonder if this issue, the restrictions on protesting and the police attitude here will accelerate resentment to Covid restrictions, a lot of people I've seen in support of restrictions have been on the side of the protestors on this issue and condemned police behaviour.
Agreed; how anyone can support the Government's disgraceful lockdown measures now, I have no clue.

This could be a major turning point in many different ways.
 

the sniper

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I wonder if this belongs in the general section instead? Whilst yes there's obviously a covid specific element here, I don't think that is the entirety of the argument. Especially given the guy who has been charged with the murder is a copper, I can't help feel there's some closing of ranks going on with this reaction (I.e. you've made us look ****ty and have dared to discuss in public how we have failed you, so here's your punishment). I have a suspicion that they would have found a reason to react like this regardless of covid (after all the met especially have a pretty awful track record regarding peaceful protect and the like).

Are you people really this nutty? You really think any copper is looking to defend a rapist and murderer of a random women?

The agitators will be delighted with this vigil. If the Police had done nothing, it'd have achieved nothing...
 

yorkie

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Well, that's quite frankly absurd.

Have you read Adam Wagner's views on the legal position?

And regardless of the legal position (which does not support the police, by the way), how anyone can praise the police response is beyond my comprehension. You are entitled to your views but you are very much in the minority, thank goodness.
 

Mike395

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Need to be careful here defining 'the police' as problematic - this seems to be a Met-specific issue in this particular instance, other forces are being entirely proportionate with responses, https://twitter.com/tannerruth/status/1370823175240626178 (Nottingham) as one example.

I do agree the Met haven't read the public mood very well here at all - be it a local instruction or higher up, it could definitely have been handled so much more sensitively.
 

yorkie

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Need to be careful here defining 'the police' as problematic - this seems to be a Met-specific issue in this particular instance, other forces are being entirely proportionate with responses, https://twitter.com/tannerruth/status/1370823175240626178 (Nottingham) as one example.
Sadly North Yorkshire police also chose to behave like scumbags on this matter.

I agree it's a mixed bag; I am glad to hear that the police in Nottingham acted responsibly.

I do agree the Met haven't read the public mood very well here at all - be it a local instruction or higher up, it could definitely have been handled so much more sensitively.
Worded far more diplomatically than I can bring myself to be!
 

Djgr

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The fact that man charged is a serving officer is nothing to do with what is happening at the vigil. If anything the Police should be given credit for apparently clearing up this appalling crime promptly.
Utter rubbish. Please don't anger me with your ignorance.

I see that there are now multiple calls for Cressida Dick to resign and the Mayor of London has said that Met Police behaviour is unacceptable.
 
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bramling

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Need to be careful here defining 'the police' as problematic - this seems to be a Met-specific issue in this particular instance, other forces are being entirely proportionate with responses, https://twitter.com/tannerruth/status/1370823175240626178 (Nottingham) as one example.

I do agree the Met haven't read the public mood very well here at all - be it a local instruction or higher up, it could definitely have been handled so much more sensitively.

It wouldn't be the first thing which the Met Police commissioner has misjudged in her time. She was given the benefit of the doubt over the Stockwell incident, which personally I feel was insensitive at best, however since then everything she's done seems to have confirmed she is unfit for the role she currently holds.
 

brad465

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It wouldn't be the first thing which the Met Police commissioner has misjudged in her time. She was given the benefit of the doubt over the Stockwell incident, which personally I feel was insensitive at best, however since then everything she's done seems to have confirmed she is unfit for the role she currently holds.
There are a lot of calls for her resignation as a result of this incident right now; whether that will actually happen is anyone's guess, but she'd be more likely to go than Patel or anyone else in Government.
 

yorkie

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There are a lot of calls for her resignation as a result of this incident right now; whether that will actually happen is anyone's guess, but she'd be more likely to go than Patel or anyone else in Government.
I'd like to see them both go, but neither will go willingly.

I note that as a result of today's debacle, Jean Charles de Menezes is trending on Twitter. To put it into perspective, this forum was only a month old when he was killed, Twitter hadn't yet been invented, and a child born on that day will turn 16 in just a few months time.
 

LMS 4F

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Utter rubbish. Please don't anger me with your ignorance
If the arrested man had have been a Fireman for example would there still have been vigils? The occupation of this man is surely irrelevant as regards the issues raised around the safety of women and remembering the deceased.
 

WelshBluebird

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Are you people really this nutty? You really think any copper is looking to defend a rapist and murderer of a random women?

The agitators will be delighted with this vigil. If the Police had done nothing, it'd have achieved nothing...

I mean maybe I'm overreacting, but surely any thought at all about this would have led to them not acting like they did?

And I don't think they are specifically looking to defend a rapst and murderer. But I do think there's absolutely a connection with current public outrage over what's happened and the mets response. Some police forces specifically can be very petty when it comes to "punishing" people who have complained about them. As a football fan I've experienced that in the past, but obviously not to the extent of what had happened in London.

As for "agitators", care to explain more?
 
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Djgr

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If the arrested man had have been a Fireman for example would there still have been vigils? The occupation of this man is surely irrelevant as regards the issues raised around the safety of women and remembering the deceased.
The public have much higher expectations of police because of the powers they have. The suggestion is that the Met Police murderer used Covid19 legislation to lure the young woman to get her in his car. Seriously you don't get this? Seriously?
 

yorkie

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If the arrested man had have been a Fireman for example would there still have been vigils? The occupation of this man is surely irrelevant as regards the issues raised around the safety of women and remembering the deceased.
I think things were going to come to a head sooner or later, but I disagree that the occupation is irrelevant, and so do many others.

Also it's not only the occupation of the accused, but the way the police let the individual continue working despite serious concerns being raised in the days before the murder, along with other factors.
 

LMS 4F

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I think things were going to come to a head sooner or later, but I disagree that the occupation is irrelevant, and so do many others.

Also it's not only the occupation of the accused, but the way the police let the individual continue working despite serious concerns being raised in the days before the murder, along with other factors.
You obviously know more about the facts of this case than the rest of us, or perhaps you are repeating facts as reported by Social Media. I would suggest waiting for the case to come to court to get the actual facts.
 

yorkie

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You obviously know more about the facts of this case than the rest of us, or perhaps you are repeating facts as reported by Social Media. I would suggest waiting for the case to come to court to get the actual facts.
I don't know more facts than most others commenting on this thread; you speak for yourself in that regard.

I am not going to wait for the matter to go to court before forming an opinion and neither are millions of others. If you take a look at Twitter you will see that many others feel similarly angry to how I feel, if not more so.
 
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