Suggestions for where new flyovers/diveunders should be built to replace 'flat' junctions

[B&I]

I'd concur with whoever said Allerton in Liverpool and make it a double at the Hunts Cross end while we're at it..

That was me, that was.

This change would be much more effective if the Hunts Cross terminus was removed, a stretch of 4 track built along the CLC around there as far east as possible, and Merseyrail expanded to take over stopping services to Warrington. Would reduce the number of services needing to use the junction in the first place, and facilitate better use of the CLC. I suspect there are many other places where new flying junctions would work best with other improvements like this.

 

[Grumpy]

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not.

How many extra train paths would this release, and how valuable is each one?

Why wouldn't I be serious? Don't you think it could be done, and done relatively cheaply?
I don't know how many paths it would release. You could ask that question of all the suggestions made on this thread. How many paths were actually created and used as a result of the Hitchin and Shaftholme flyovers ? These two cost approx. £50m each despite relatively easy land availability, so some of the suggestions on this thread must be into the hundreds of millions each and will never make a business case.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why wouldn't I be serious? Don't you think it could be done, and done relatively cheaply?
I don't know how many paths it would release. You could ask that question of all the suggestions made on this thread. How many paths were actually created and used as a result of the Hitchin and Shaftholme flyovers ? These two cost approx. £50m each despite relatively easy land availability, so some of the suggestions on this thread must be into the hundreds of millions each and will never make a business case.

South Kirkby Jn doesn’t seem that busy to me. A maximum of 3/4 trains per hour from the Leeds direction to Sheffield, conflicting with 4 occasionally 5 from Doncaster towards Leeds.

It doesn’t really compare with Woking: 4/5 from Guildford conflicting with 9-11 on the SWML.

In terms of paths, Hitchin released 2 to Cambridge (to be used by Thameslink) and also a long distance path, although that was in conjunction with other work, including Shaftholme. All of these are very high value. Shaftholme also released some freight paths to/from Immingham, just in time for most of the traffic to dry up.

Woking releases 2 paths into Waterloo on its own and enables another 4 when ETCS come along. Windmill Bridge releases at least 2, possibly more, from the Sussex coast to London. All very high value.

I don’t believe that South Kirkby Jn is a critical constraint on capacity now; there are other constraints that are tougher (Marshgate, Leeds station to name but two)

Incidentally, a quick google reveals that the land where such a chord would be built is all a protected wildlife reserve.

 

[driver_m]

That was me, that was.

This change would be much more effective if the Hunts Cross terminus was removed, a stretch of 4 track built along the CLC around there as far east as possible, and Merseyrail expanded to take over stopping services to Warrington. Would reduce the number of services needing to use the junction in the first place, and facilitate better use of the CLC. I suspect there are many other places where new flying junctions would work best with other improvements like this.

Slewing the track so pl1 (? Iirc) was the terminator for the merseyrail.is a no brainer for me. However there's still be an issue with the conflict caused by the short overlaps at Allerton. Long term it's going to be unacceptable that a HS2 service will potentially still be regularly checked for a Warrington Central Stopper to crawl over in front .There needs to be some serious looking at the junctions round Liverpool in general though as there are a whole host of flat junctions that could cause issues, especially if Merseytravel want the city lines connecting to the rest of Merseyrail.

 

[edwin_m]

I think the only way to do Castlefield would be to raise the Up line (from Liverpool) to the level of Metrolink so that the lines to and from Ordsall can stay in their existing positions but no longer conflict with it. But this would be a structurally tricky "viaduct on a viaduct", or demolition and rebuilding of the whole lot, and I'm not sure if there would be enough length to get it back down to existing track level before the platform at Deansgate. Possibly better to close Deansgate and run it as a parallel track into Oxford Road platform 4.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I don't think it is. The Southern railway had detailed plans for a Woking flyover. British Rail inherited them & improved them.
The plans with I in 70 uphill & I in 50 down should be dusted down & implemented.
I have seen it said that some rail land has been sold by that friend of the railway, Network Rail. But I can't see where.
And in any case gradients could be increased to I in 40 up & I in 30 down to reduce the land take. Freight is much less now & could go on the level. Woking flyover please.

I was only reiterating what someone told me who was working on the project. Maybe she hadn't worked on any others, so was only going on what she'd encountered.

 

[Senex]

I haven't read back through all the pages, but has anyone suggested Meadowhall/Wincobank? In recent years I don't think I can remember a departure from Sheffield on an XC that wasn't severely checked at Brightside by something coming off the Barnsley line across its path.

 

[K.o.R]

and put an extra island platform in the through road

There hasn't been a through road in Havant for at least a decade.

 

[RichardN]

There is another one that was talked about for a while, which is Up Slow to Up Fast at Stoat's Nest Junction. The plans I saw showed it as a bridge, but I thought it might be easier to build retaining walls in the cutting and cut a ledge rising from the slows to the existing bridge where the fasts cross over. I think it is considered no longer necessary due to the planned improvements at Windmill Bridge, though.

 

[geoffk]

Following on from the four-tracking thread, we've recently seen new flyovers at Hitchin and Norton Bridge. What others are needed?

Wootton Bassett comes to mind but there are two road bridges near the junction - is a diveunder an alternative?

 

[Ken H]

slade lane- manchester,
Colwich,
Hanslope/Roade,
Newark (double carriageway the A46 at the same time)

 

[Melancholia]

Didcot East Jn

 

[theageofthetra]

North Kent East -should have been done before all the new housing development. It was mostly wasteland around there until recently

 

[Ken H]

slade lane- manchester,
Colwich,
Hanslope/Roade,
Newark (double carriageway the A46 at the same time)

and
Shepreth Junction
Earls Court (The triangle between Earls Court, High St Ken & Gloucester Rd.

 

[Ken H]

I wonder whether a flyover North of Northallerton might provide increased capacity on the ECML, given the number of services heading towards Thornaby - or if trains would just catch up to the next bottleneck quicker.

one there already. trouble it avoids the station.

 

[TheBigD]

and
Shepreth Junction
Earls Court (The triangle between Earls Court, High St Ken & Gloucester Rd.

Not sure about Shepreth Junction. Probably be better to four track the section to Cambridge and move the junction to there. Then you could largely operationally split Cambridge station to a GN side (platforms 1&2), a WA side (platforms 7&8) with the Kings Lynns, Birmingham etc using platform 1&4.

 

[cle]

Not sure about Shepreth Junction. Probably be better to four track the section to Cambridge and move the junction to there. Then you could largely operationally split Cambridge station to a GN side (platforms 1&2), a WA side (platforms 7&8) with the Kings Lynns, Birmingham etc using platform 1&4.

Makes sense... although the south-facing bays are useful for the WA services. Perhaps more need to run through to Cambridge North/Ely/Kings Lynn. Or a platform 9 is needed.

Is there still another (fastest) tph from Liverpool St planned?

 

[Whistler40145]

IMHO, Colwich Junction should be abolished and grade separated with the junction relocated, therefore it would reduce conflicts.

 

[TheBigD]

Makes sense... although the south-facing bays are useful for the WA services. Perhaps more need to run through to Cambridge North/Ely/Kings Lynn. Or a platform 9 is needed.

Is there still another (fastest) tph from Liverpool St planned?

I beleive so.

Happy to be corrected by from memory I think there will be 11 services every hour between Cambridge and Shepreth Junction:
4 x Thamelink, 2 x Kings Lynn-Kings Cross, 3 x Liverpool Street and 2 x Stansted Airport. Plus a handful of freights a day.

There's local rumours that pathing the proposed Stansted extensions of the current Norwich-cambridge service is proving all but impossible in the morning peak and challenging in the evening peak but I guess time will tell how whether this is overcome.

 

[Starmill]

one there already. trouble it avoids the station.

I expect an extra platform would be feasible? The question is does it remove enough crossing movements. Many hours it'd a single conflict only.

 

[swt_passenger]

I expect an extra platform would be feasible? The question is does it remove enough crossing movements. Many hours it'd a single conflict only.

They had one. It closed many years ago. Would be a quite long way from the existing platforms.

 

[Ken H]

They had one. It closed many years ago. Would be a quite long way from the existing platforms.

t'other side of the car park. About 70m away, But the down platform would be on the wrong side so you need a footbridge unless you single it.
couple of level crossings in urban environment too
Existed by 1941 as there was a wartime emergency station built on the avoiding line in case the main station was damaged by bombing.

 

[Bald Rick]

Existed by 1941 as there was a wartime emergency station built on the avoiding line in case the main station was damaged by bombing.

Gosh, that was taking a rather pessimistic view of German target priorities, and the Luftwaffe’s accuracy!

 

[Bald Rick]

I beleive so.

Happy to be corrected by from memory I think there will be 11 services every hour between Cambridge and Shepreth Junction:
4 x Thamelink, 2 x Kings Lynn-Kings Cross, 3 x Liverpool Street and 2 x Stansted Airport. Plus a handful of freights a day.

There's local rumours that pathing the proposed Stansted extensions of the current Norwich-cambridge service is proving all but impossible in the morning peak and challenging in the evening peak but I guess time will tell how whether this is overcome.

In the peak it is already 4 x Liv Streets.

Shepreth is on the list.

 

[Ken H]

In the peak it is already 4 x Liv Streets.

Shepreth is on the list.

You are on ze list, capt mainwairing.

 

[mwmbwls]

Another vote for Windmill Bridge Junction.

Your wish is Network Rail's command
"On November 5 Network Rail is to begin a six-week public consultation on the proposed Croydon area remodelling scheme. This aims to improve punctuality, reduce journey times and increase capacity through a major bottleneck on the London – Brighton line.

If approved, the scheme would see lines in the Croydon, Norwood Junction and Selhurst areas reconfigured with flyovers to replace junctions, an increase from five to seven tracks north of East Croydon, and two extra platforms and a bigger concourse provided at East Croydon station

‘Removing the Croydon bottleneck is the only practical way to provide the step-change in reliability and capacity that passengers and businesses in Sussex so desperately want to see’, said John Halsall, Network Rail Route Managing Director for the South East. ‘For too long, train performance on the Brighton Main Line has been below the level that commuters and other passengers expect and deserve. While a number of factors have contributed to these issues in recent years, the basic layout of our railway through the Croydon area and the bottleneck it creates means reliability won’t ever improve to acceptable levels without significant changes.’

Annual passenger journeys through East Croydon have grown from 45 million in 2005 to 75 million in 2017, with 1 720 weekday trains."
Railway Gazette.

 

[Mark J]

Woking. Newark. Colwich. Didcot East. Having them on 100/125 mph lines seems more relevant.

I'd go for Didcot East purely because I seem to be badly delayed there on about 50% of all movements, especially from the Down Main to the Oxford avoiding line.

Agree with Didcot East. It is now more a case of "when", not "if".

It was somewhat stupid and short-sighted that this wasn't included when electrification works were planned. If it happens in the future, there will be an awful lot of "rejigging" the electrics at Didcot East, adding to the time and expense of this project.

 

[HowardGWR]

Agree with Didcot East. It is now more a case of "when", not "if".

It was somewhat stupid and short-sighted that this wasn't included when electrification works were planned. If it happens in the future, there will be an awful lot of "rejigging" the electrics at Didcot East, adding to the time and expense of this project.

Am I right that the GSJ would be somewhere in Moreton cutting and take main line first to relief and then take flat junction onto Avoiding line? Are there designs for this flyover in existence?

 

[swt_passenger]

Am I right that the GSJ would be somewhere in Moreton cutting and take main line first to relief and then take flat junction onto Avoiding line? Are there designs for this flyover in existence?

There are a number of references in the Western route study, but no layout information is shown.

 

[geoffk]

I've read through all these comments now. Some interesting suggestions. I'm between Manchester and Leeds and the only flyover/diveunder nearby is at Heaton Lodge. There's also the disused viaduct route outside Leeds - there was a thread on this subject back in 2012. I see there are plans for a high-level walkway over it, surely a waste of a rail route. Would it make sense to reopen it for Wakefield-bound trains?