Most Inefficient Use Of Stock

[Class195]

Because the fleets up here have been fairly static for 20+ years, so crews were generally passed out on all the various classes and different units could be used to match varying demand. The loss of flexibility may well come back to bite Northern on the backside, particularly with the two Huddersfield services which will be allocated single 153s for the foreseeable.

A single 153 won't be enough.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A single 153 won't be enough.

On the Castlefords they're fine, maybe a bit snug in the peaks or if the previous TPE Leeds stopper has been cancelled. On the Bradford service they might struggle a bit at times. Silly thing is, only one of them needs to use the problem platform at Huddersfield so it seems odd that the Bradford needs to be a 153. Guess it frees up higher capacity units to be used on a service serving Leeds.

 

[Horizon22]

I agree to an extent, but also smarter timetabling can resolve some of the problems. Southern were able to do this with their May 18 timetable although I believe it introduced more changes but its a lot more reliable now.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I agree to an extent, but also smarter timetabling can resolve some of the problems. Southern were able to do this with their May 18 timetable although I believe it introduced more changes but its a lot more reliable now.

Indeed. Southern is a lot more reliable and the two services a day use of stock which I mentioned above seems to have ended.

 

[tbtc]

The Dec 19 timetable definitely has a contender in the newly split Sheffield-Doncaster stopper that currently works through to Hull... which gives it a 54 minute layover at the Doncaster end, thankfully the 48 minute layover at Sheffield end is sorted by interworking it with the Gainsborough runs. Equally though on the other half hour the other one is extended to Adwick, giving a very inefficient 51 minute layover in Sheffield and just short of half an hour at Adwick (admittedly there's an ECS run to cross over)

That's pretty inefficient!

I was hoping that the changes to the services would mean a more efficient half hourly Doncaster - Sheffield - Doncaster service (with one unit running beyond Donny to Adwick, but at least a more efficient use of stock than what went before.

Glad Northern have dozens of spare DMUs, or all of these awkward layovers may mean the fleet was stretched and passengers ended up standing, eh?

On the Castlefords they're fine, maybe a bit snug in the peaks or if the previous TPE Leeds stopper has been cancelled. On the Bradford service they might struggle a bit at times. Silly thing is, only one of them needs to use the problem platform at Huddersfield so it seems odd that the Bradford needs to be a 153. Guess it frees up higher capacity units to be used on a service serving Leeds.

I suppose it could be that, by having two services running with the 153s it's more efficient for staff training/ maintenance etc - whereas having dedicated stock for just one service means you need still to keep knowledge up to date and have all of the spare parts etc?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I suppose it could be that, by having two services running with the 153s it's more efficient for staff training/ maintenance etc - whereas having dedicated stock for just one service means you need still to keep knowledge up to date and have all of the spare parts etc?

That would make sense if 153s weren't also being used elsewhere by Northern, just not on their own. Castlefords have to be a solo 153 or 2-car Pacer due to platform 5 but the Bradford service doesn't.

Now that the Pacers are being withdrawn en-masse, Northern's fleet is once again going to be spread very thinly. So a service which doesn't get hugely busy (and as it won't operate through to Leeds may become less busy) is an obvious candidate for a low capacity unit.

 

[nw1]

Similarly, SWR (and SWT for many years previously) use 3 units on the hourly Portsmouth to Southampton stopping service, the running time is an hour each way and the layover at the Portsmouth & Southsea end is about 55 mins. The incoming train usually waits for the departing train to leave. But the advantage is loads of recovery time, and in the peaks the service can extend to/from Portsmouth Harbour without significantly altering any other timings.

Yes, that one used to be more efficient - it would interwork with the Waterloo-Eastleigh-Portsmouth in the days of CIGs and VEPs with sensible 20-25 min turnarounds. I'm guessing the 444s not fitting into the platform at many of the stations was the reason for the change; ISTR the change was around the 2004 timetable (ISTR mentioning this in another thread, this may have been answered already; apologies if so)

 

[nw1]

One of my old timetable trains from Purley Oaks to Victoria did one journey up to London, then into the sidings and one journey back out in the evening. It may have run in service later that night. Kid tend to call two journeys of 20 miles max in a day pretty inefficient.

Except you do need extra trains in the peaks, diagrams like this have to run if you want to match peak capacity to demand.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, that one used to be more efficient - it would interwork with the Waterloo-Eastleigh-Portsmouth in the days of CIGs and VEPs with sensible 20-25 min turnarounds. I'm guessing the 444s not fitting into the platform at many of the stations was the reason for the change; ISTR the change was around the 2004 timetable (ISTR mentioning this in another thread, this may have been answered already; apologies if so)

Yes, and that rings a bell somehow. I suspect one of the aims of the 2004 changes was to prepare for splitting routes between 450/444, and/or removing interworking where possible. I’d have thought the service could easily have been extended to the harbour all day at any time since, there’d have been room for it to terminate in P1, and the Cardiff go on top...

 

[dk1]

National Express East Anglia ran 3 car 170 DMUs from Lowestoft and Peterborough to Liverpool Street via Ipswich, taking 2 hours 30 and 2 hours 45, with an hour under the wires, when they only had 12 of them. In the morning peak they even ran one 6 car non-stop to Liv St from Ipswich with turnaround times at the London end of over an hour. Rural service gaps were larger and they withdrew them from long through services to London to avoid gross overcrowding all day and to increase frequency on the rurals.

Only one of the two units in that 6-car formation from Yarmouth & Lowestoft spent that long at Liverpool St. It arrived around 09:25 with one forming the 09:38 Lowestoft & the other the 10:38 Peterborough. It was unusually worked by a guard from Ipswich as only 3-car 170s where permitted DOO. Most daytime trains on these diesel diagrams had 53min turnarounds with units passing each other at Bethnal Green.

 

[Andyh82]

A single 153 won't be enough.

Bradford to Huddersfield only, I.e not serving Leeds.

Why won’t a single 153 be enough?

 

[Class195]

Bradford to Huddersfield only, I.e not serving Leeds.

Why won’t a single 153 be enough?

Have you travelled on this service during the peaks?

 

[306024]

Only one of the two units in that 6-car formation from Yarmouth & Lowestoft spent that long at Liverpool St. It arrived around 09:25 with one forming the 09:38 Lowestoft & the other the 10:38 Peterborough. It was unusually worked by a guard from Ipswich as only 3-car 170s where permitted DOO. Most daytime trains on these diesel diagrams had 53min turnarounds with units passing each other at Bethnal Green.

And of course they had to avoid the single lines on both the East Suffolk Line and Soham - Ely. These were a nightmare to timetable, as the 3 car units had to be hidden behind other trains to avoid being more overcrowded than they already were. It wasn’t always possible and the 21.00 Liverpool St to Lowestoft was a train to avoid.

Providing your peak and shoulder peak workings are as efficient as possible, it doesn’t really matter if you have long turnrounds off peak, it won’t cost you any more rolling stock. It’s a good chance to clean and water stock if facilities permit, and can suit crew diagrams to fit in a PNB.

 

[dk1]

And of course they had to avoid the single lines on both the East Suffolk Line and Soham - Ely. These were a nightmare to timetable, as the 3 car units had to be hidden behind other trains to avoid being more overcrowded than they already were. It wasn’t always possible and the 21.00 Liverpool St to Lowestoft was a train to avoid.

And yet we are about to relaunch a through ES service twice a day each way once again. Maybe a franchise commitment too far but there really is a very healthy flow from this line to & from the capital.

 

[306024]

Yes it’s a classic dilemma to match loadings at either end of this route. Class 17x on Brighton - Ashford was a similar problem. A 4 car class 755 still has a relatively low capacity for the crowds at the London end, but potentially this time stock exists to strengthen from Ipswich if necessary, and it’s possible to diagram. Whether the bid team thought a 4 car class 755 is sufficient open to debate, like last time hiding them behind a Norwich train could help.

 

[Kite159]

And yet we are about to relaunch a through ES service twice a day each way once again. Maybe a franchise commitment too far but there really is a very healthy flow from this line to & from the capital.

I would hope that service will attach to another 755 at Ipswich to have 6-8 coaches going forward to London, rather than a 4 coach unit.

[maybe in a crayonist way that 2nd unit could come from somewhere like Bury St Edmonds to give a direct London service]

 

[dk1]

I would hope that service will attach to another 755 at Ipswich to have 6-8 coaches going forward to London, rather than a 4 coach unit.

[maybe in a crayonist way that 2nd unit could come from somewhere like Bury St Edmonds to give a direct London service]

See what you did there with the spelling Take it you where referring to the power mode changeover sign at Stowmarket?

 

[GLC]

A Scotrail Class 68s on the Fife circle every weekday morning will spend 60-120 minutes travelling from Motherwell to the required start point, do half a loop of the Fife Circle for an hour, then trundle off back to Motherwell. It will then return in the evening to complete a full loop, and then return to Motherwell again. Roughly 6 hours of ECS for 3 hours passenger working

 

[Taunton]

Except you do need extra trains in the peaks, diagrams like this have to run if you want to match peak capacity to demand.

It may actually not be inefficient to run like this, because it matches the demand, which a number of commentators have overlooked. In fact one of the issues with modern operations is a standard interval service all day long, felt to be efficient for rolling stock usage, but which is empty inward late evening and leaves passengers behind in the next morning peak.

The same applies to services which for example leave very early in the morning from depots, making quite lengthy and essentially useless runs because former stabling points have been closed or are with the wrong TOC.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Have you travelled on this service during the peaks?

Currently, yes the Huddersfield departures from Bradford can be busy, as can the northbound services from Halifax. However, under the new timetable, the Huddersfield departure from Bradford will be 3 minutes behind a train to Manchester Victoria, while the departures from Halifax are 4 minutes after the York service. Even if either of those services is delayed or cancelled, the 153 should be able to cope wiith the passengers just between those two stations (and any using Low Moor), I would have thought?

 

[Surreytraveller]

One of my old timetable trains from Purley Oaks to Victoria did one journey up to London, then into the sidings and one journey back out in the evening. It may have run in service later that night. Kid tend to call two journeys of 20 miles max in a day pretty inefficient.

You say that, but units with low mileage left in them before exams being due will tend to be put on such diagrams. The alternative will be for the unit to be sat around in a depot, with other resultant short forms or cancellations. So sat around in a siding between the peaks could actually be an efficient use of limited availability

 

[mugam4]

I don't know why they bother with the Hove - Brighton shuttle there's more than plenty of services between Brighton and Hove, they could use the 313/377 elsewhere, they're always running out of 313s

I wish they would remove these and add acceptance on the relatively traffic-free and frequent 7 bus that runs parallel to this, which would minimise waiting for the shuttle service as the bus is more frequent. Seems like a waste of capacity to duplicate this

 

[Deepgreen]

One that struck me this morning is the Sundays-only Guildford to Newcastle XC, which runs ECS from Eastleigh to Guildford via Reading to form the working! Is it really not possible to run this in service for say, Eastleigh to Basingstoke, Basingstoke to Reading and/or Reading to Guildford?

 

[swt_passenger]

One that struck me this morning is the Sundays-only Guildford to Newcastle XC, which runs ECS from Eastleigh to Guildford via Reading to form the working! Is it really not possible to run this in service for say, Eastleigh to Basingstoke, Basingstoke to Reading and/or Reading to Guildford?

It wouldn’t normally run that way, it’s due to engineering work somewhere. For quite a few weeks from now it’s either not doing the usual route, or starting at Reading. Then towards the end of Jan it’s back on the normal route via Havant.

By the way, it’s not actually a Sunday only service. Just that normally it runs at stupid o’clock in the morning, (dep 0601), and no one’s around to see it at Guildford...