Most/least successful recent large infrastructure project?

[Bald Rick]

Has it?

I am interested as I can never get an answer if / when WGC will get trains through the core.

Has it really delivered infrastructure capable of running 24tph? Will it ever be used? I understand at the moment it is just standard sight driving not ATO so only 20tph. (Happy to be corrected here)

these are questions i ask GTR at the meet the manager but never get answers to.

Yes the ATO was commissioned some time ago. The fact that trains don’t use it yet doesn’t mean the capability isn’t there. It will be used, as soon as the driver training is done (when that is, I don’t know).

So a train comes in late to Piccadilly. Doors open, but it takes an age for the train to load. When does the guard close the doors? After a specified amount of time? when everyone has sorted themselves out?

The issue is the ‘takes an age for a train to load’. 13/14 need to be swamped by dispatch staff, barking at passengers through megaphones to keep back from the doors to allow people to board, and move well down the carriages on busy trains. It’s what TfL do at Canada Water and Stratford. It works.

 

[snookertam]

Least successful infrastructure project? I'd suggest the Newton remodelling around 1990 which was the precurser to the crash there in 1991.

It had to be partially reversed immediately afterwards, and has now been almost completely reversed.

 

[DarloRich]

But it does get people from Leeds to Manchester [Victoria vice Piccadilly] quicker, which was the real point.

There is no place for facts and accuracy here

 

[GlosRail]

For me the most useful has been the new link between Bicester Village (Town) and the Chiltern Main Line.

 

[racyrich]

The GOBLIN electrification was not exactly covered in glory.

 

[Grumpy]

But it does get people from Leeds to Manchester [Victoria vice Piccadilly] quicker, which was the real point.

How does the Ordsall Chord get people from Leeds to Manchester quicker?

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes the ATO was commissioned some time ago. The fact that trains don’t use it yet doesn’t mean the capability isn’t there. It will be used, as soon as the driver training is done (when that is,I don’t know

fair enough. I will maintain my position. Thameslink is not a good project until it has delivered all its benefits. If it doesn’t we could have ordered less class 700 units and kept the 365s on London - Cambridge and not bothered installing ATO as it is proven the 20tph we currently have is fine with standard signalling.

If it does - I will be joining you in saying it was a good investment.

lets hope it does deliver what was promised. I am sure if it does come 2025 people at WGC will have forgotten the journey into KX was quicker as the improvements Thameslink will bring will outweigh the slow line crawl.

 

[Taunton]

Yes the ATO was commissioned some time ago. The fact that trains don’t use it yet ...

Not wishing to be picky, but I don't quite see something is "commissioned" if trains are not using it.

This is reminiscent of the substantial Thameslink hoopla and self-congratulation in the railway press about the "completion" of 4-tracking the viaduct over Borough Market, extensively covered in about 2013 (I think), glossing over, or only mentioning in the final sentence, that the rails had not been laid, and were not for several more years.

 

[Searle]

Yes I do see large flows of people getting on the 4tph that actually run. However I won’t consider it a success until the 8tph promised run. (Between Finsbury Park and the core - Something no-one seems to know if / when this will happen). Weekend service commence in December.

So instead of the project being a success because every day commuters are using it, you won't rule it a success until an arbitary service pattern is met? How does that make any sense?

 

[ElectroSoldier]

I think the most successful of recent times has to be the electrification of the Chat moss line. Not only has it allowed a faster electric service Between Liverpool and Manchester, which was much needed its also spured on the electrification of other routes that have also been improved with electric trainsets.

Least successful todate is HS2.
Mostly in the fact that its many objectors still dont seem to understand why its needed and what it will give.

 

[Failed Unit]

So instead of the project being a success because every day commuters are using it, you won't rule it a success until an arbitary service pattern is met? How does that make any sense?

I judge a project as a success once it meets the scope as defined. What is wrong with that. Would you be happy if you asked for a 4 bedroom house and the supplier gave you 3 and they responded - well it is a success as you are living in it? No you wouldn’t as it wasn’t what you asked and paid for.

At the moment the ATO is a waste of investment as it is not getting used? hardly a success when people have a worse journey then previously because of it? (Yes many on the Thameslink side benefit - but great northern the majority of us are not seeing the benefit YET just the pain)

 

[Terry Tait]

WAML was going to be four track all the way from Tottenham Hale to Broxbourne but all we got was a glorified siding from Angel Road to Stratford

 

[Bald Rick]

I judge a project as a success once it meets the scope as defined. What is wrong with that. Would you be happy if you asked for a 4 bedroom house and the supplier gave you 3 and they responded - well it is a success as you are living in it? No you wouldn’t as it wasn’t what you asked and paid for.

I’m being very picky here, but in the case of Thameslink, the scope has been delivered as defined and remitted. What hasn’t been delivered is the benefit, because, for whatever reason, the user of the facility has chosen not to do so. In the house example, you’ve asked for a 4 bed house and got a 4 bed house. However the occupier has only put beds in three of the bedrooms.

WAML was going to be four track all the way from Tottenham Hale to Broxbourne but all we got was a glorified siding from Angel Road to Stratford

Was it?

 

[Failed Unit]

I’m being very picky here, but in the case of Thameslink, the scope has been delivered as defined and remitted. What hasn’t been delivered is the benefit, because, for whatever reason, the user of the facility has chosen not to do so. In the house example, you’ve asked for a 4 bed house and got a 4 bed house. However the occupier has only put beds in three of the bedrooms.



Was it?

Fair enough. So using a more fun analogy for us old enough to watch it.

It is like Bullseye. “Look at what you could have won”.

 

[Bald Rick]

Fair enough. So using a more fun analogy for us old enough to watch it.

It is like Bullseye. “Look at what you could have won”.

Yes, but what use is a speedboat to a bloke who lives in a terraced house in Bolton?

 

[route:oxford]

How recent does it have to be?

Reading has made a massive difference, my perception is that it has improved reliability of Cross Country services across the country.

For sheer practical effectiveness, the rebuild of Haymarket with brand new overbridge was a game changer for people who use that station regularly. It's not perfect. It can still be a bit blustery on the escalators and the platforms can get quite overcrowded at times, but it feels better and works better.

 

[Dr_Paul]

... the Shaftholme flyover...

I've not heard of the Shaftholme flyover before reading this thread; can somebody provide some details?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But it does get people from Leeds to Manchester [Victoria vice Piccadilly] quicker, which was the real point.

That wasn't the point at all: trains via both routes from Leeds (Calder Valley or Standedge) heading to Victoria are not affected at all by the Ordsall curve because they're on the other side of the city. The chord was to allow Airport services from the West East to serve both city centre stations. Victoria was after all the main station for Trans-pennine services until the early 1990s.

Platforms 15&16 should have been the first stage of the project, as that would deliver benefits even if the second part (which would be the chord) ended up being Graylinged.

 

[Ken H]

That wasn't the point at all: trains via both routes from Leeds (Calder Valley or Standedge) heading to Victoria are not affected at all by the Ordsall curve because they're on the other side of the city. The chord was to allow Airport services from the West to serve both city centre stations. Victoria was after all the main station for Trans-pennine services until the early 1990s.

Platforms 15&16 should have been the first stage of the project, as that would deliver benefits even if the second part (which would be the chord) ended up being Graylinged.

what were the cost for ordsall curve and estimate for 15/16

 

[Bald Rick]

I've not heard of the Shaftholme flyover before reading this thread; can somebody provide some details?

Also known as the North Doncaster Chord. Linked up the freight only line from Hatfield (S Yorks) to Adwick, where it crosses the ECML, to the freight only line from the ECML to Knottingley. Basically a bridge over the ECML. Enabled coal trains trains from Immingham to the Yorkshire power stations to avoid a lengthy detour via the ECML and Hambleton.

It opened in 2014, just in time for the power stations to close and the coal market to collapse. Whilst it was unquestionably a good idea when approved, it wouldn’t happen now if it was proposed.

More detail here:

https://www.networkrailmediacentre....il-chord-gets-the-green-light-from-government

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/shaftholme-flyover.74819/

 

[Bald Rick]

what were the cost for ordsall curve and estimate for 15/16

Published cost of Ordsall is £85m.

I’m not sure an estimate for 15/16 was ever published, but if it was, it wouldn’t be valid now. I’d expect it to be well into the hundreds of millions.

 

[Ken H]

Published cost of Ordsall is £85m.

I’m not sure an estimate for 15/16 was ever published, but if it was, it wouldn’t be valid now. I’d expect it to be well into the hundreds of millions.

So I suppose doing the cheaper scheme first sort of makes political sense. 'Look, we are investing in the Northern hub' while not mentioning the most important scheme which they are not funding
Politicians eh?

 

[Taunton]

The original Eurostar had a lot of facility that was only used for about 15 years, plus more that was never used at all - and the latter includes much rolling stock, outside the scope here. Then the new route has further waste.

Waterloo International
Longhedge flyover
North Pole depot
All the upgrades to track/signalling/power out from Waterloo
The link at Gravesend, including a flying junction on HS1 that was never needed because all services went one way, then changed to only the other.

Stratford station - never finished.
Ebbsfleet - gargantuan station for a trickle of passengers (last train to Europe 13.15).
Goods loops on HS1 that I believe are never used
Ashford station- even less service than Ebbsfleet.

I'm sure there's more.

 

[Ken H]

The original Eurostar had a lot of facility that was only used for about 15 years, plus more that was never used at all - and the latter includes much rolling stock, outside the scope here. Then the new route has further waste.

Waterloo International
Longhedge flyover
North Pole depot
All the upgrades to track/signalling/power out from Waterloo
The link at Gravesend, including a flying junction on HS1 that was never needed because all services went one way, then changed to only the other.

Stratford station - never finished.
Ebbsfleet - gargantuan station for a trickle of passengers (last train to Europe 13.15).
Goods loops on HS1 that I believe are never used
Ashford station- even less service than Ebbsfleet.

I'm sure there's more.

Regional eurostar. North london line upgrade for regional eurostar, sleeping cars for through night services. Class 92 have never been used to their full capacity.

 

[Bald Rick]

Regional eurostar. North london line upgrade for regional eurostar, sleeping cars for through night services. Class 92 have never been used to their full capacity.

It was very much a political decision to build this stuff in the first place. BR didn’t want to do it, as they knew it would be a commercial sink hole.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Thanks for the reply about Shaftholme. I've just been looking at Google and Multimap aerial photography and they're not up to date, but the latter's OS 1:50 000 is up to date and shows the bridge (but not the 1:25 000!). It's one of life's ironies: there was for well over a century no direct route from Hatfield to Knottingley despite the very close proximity of the junctions on the ECML (perhaps no call for it?); then a connection is built thus enabling that route -- and it's promptly rendered pretty much obsolete by the government's energy policy.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I'd suggest some of the infrastructure projects in South Wales, sponsored by the Welsh Assembly (as was). Lengthening platforms on the Rhymney and Rhondda lines to 6 car around 10 years ago. Never used. New passing loop at Tir-Phil to allow 30 min frequency north of Bargoed, around 5 years ago. Never used in normal use. (Caveated, as I guess it may be used very occasionally for a late running service.) Bay platforms at Pontypridd and Caerphilly, around 3 years ago. Not yet in normal timetable use, although finally the bay at Caerphilly may get some Sunday action come December. And the crowning glory, the Ebbw Vale double tracking, where much of the track has been laid and left to rust after the project was halted a few years ago.

 

[xotGD]

Thanks for the reply about Shaftholme. I've just been looking at Google and Multimap aerial photography and they're not up to date, but the latter's OS 1:50 000 is up to date and shows the bridge (but not the 1:25 000!). It's one of life's ironies: there was for well over a century no direct route from Hatfield to Knottingley despite the very close proximity of the junctions on the ECML (perhaps no call for it?); then a connection is built thus enabling that route -- and it's promptly rendered pretty much obsolete by the government's energy policy.

Doesn't the line see a decent amount of use from Drax biomass traffic?

 

[Derbyshire Gra]

I would suggest one of the most successful projects recently has been the remodelling of Derby station. Undertake effectively and efficiently within predicted plan, the result is superb separation of the different flows and many trains now regularly arrive at faster speeds with greens showing at the platform ends. i even watched three trains depart southbound simulataneously the other day, - a huge improvement over the old layout and operation.

 

[InOban]

I was surprised that no-one had mentioned Derby. I would choose Reading for a large project, Derby for a smaller one, alongside Norton Bridge. In terms of a more distributed project, the EGIP electrification. With the completion of Queen St in a few months, the route will be carrying up to 2000 passengers per hour in each direction. That's what trains are for.