• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Most popular TOC/Depots for driving trains ?

Status
Not open for further replies.

ESONEULB

Member
Joined
9 Nov 2017
Messages
154
I see people talking about the London Bubble.

What are the good TOC's and bad TOC's in this Bubble?

For routes?, T&C's?, Pay etc etc

From drivers and trainees experiences??
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,220
Location
London
I see people talking about the London Bubble.

What are the good TOC's and bad TOC's in this Bubble?

For routes?, T&C's?, Pay etc etc

From drivers and trainees experiences??


My rough overview of the London market is below (can you tell I’m bored at the moment :D?). I have worked for a couple of London TOCs and know people who have worked/work for all of the below. Obviously this is just my impression but it’s a reasonably informed one.

As a trainee any TOC that gives you a key is a good one.

Commuter TOCs in the London area offer pretty good pay these days, but some of the most intense work in the country, and tend to be DOO.

Commuter TOCs in the London area offer pretty good pay these days, but some of the most intense work in the country, and tend to be DOO.

The worst in terms of work will be metro only depots. New Cross Gate (London overground) and Crossrail once it opens would be the worst for me in terms of routes (albeit pay at both is pretty good).

GTR (Southern) at Selhurst, Victoria, London Bridge offer decent work in the higher links, albeit all DOO these days. Lower links are pretty much all metro, and it takes a few years to progress through the links.

Southeastern Victoria offers both DOO and guarded work (but increasingly metro in the lower links). SE’s other London depots are pretty much entirely DOO metro. Pay at Southeastern is well below where it should be.

SWR Waterloo has lots of intense work in the lower links but still has guards (and low pay). Their pay is about to skyrocket but drivers will be taking over responsibility for the doors, so effectively DOO. Lots of drivers have been leaving Waterloo which doesn’t bode well.


Greater Anglia I know less about (depots at Liverpool st?, Stratford?) but also has a large DOO route network. Guarded work to Norwich but how long does it take to get onto that?

Thameslink varies by depot (the depots offering the best “main line” work are outside central London. Kentish Town, Orpington and St Albans probably the worst depots in terms of work content.

Gatwick Express has a depot at Victoria and tends only to take qualifieds. DOO but not stopping much.

I’ve heard good things about the work at Chiltern at Marylebone, pay a little off the pace.

In terms of the “intercity” TOCs, Avanti, LNER and EMR offer long distance work with no DOO metro work at all. Avanti and LNER pay is market leading (£70k), EMR slightly behind (mid £60s including London weighting).

GWR Paddington offers some mainline/guarded work but again it would take years to get there and they do a fair bit of DOO metro in the lower links.

Eurostar offer the highest pay (£85k?) and some of the best Ts and Cs. Albeit they have limited routes, only take qualifieds and there’s a requirement to spend months learning French to the point where you’re fluent.

EDIT: and I forgot to mention Great Northern. Similar Ts and Cs to the other GTR TOCs, routes depend on depot. Depots as Willesden (all metro), Kings Cross(?), Peterborough (?).
 
Last edited:

Economist

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2013
Messages
508
I'd personally say the best is probably an intercity TOC with a depot outside of the South East. Good salary, work which doesn't involve DOO or 100 stops per day and reasonably low living costs. Since there is an effective 50% tax rate above £50k-ish, unless you're paying a lot into BRASS, I'd say it's better to save on living costs than to go for a top salary in London. That's purely from a lifestyle perspective and if one has lots of family/friends in/around London, it becomes very different.

I knew Eurostar had a "driver retention package" but I didn't think it was as high as £85k, I thought it was about £75k-ish with Sundays inside, accounting for the fact that ASLEF Company Info is usually out-of-date. Nonetheless still very good money, I don't see them recruiting for a while unless they have a lot of retirements coming up.
 

Need2

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2016
Messages
595
Thameslink varies by depot (the depots offering the best “main line” work are outside central London. Kentish Town, Orpington and St Albans probably the worst depots in terms of work content.

I don’t know where you got your information from, there isn’t a depot at Kentish Town?
 

godfreycomplex

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2016
Messages
1,296
Greater Anglia I know less about (depots at Liverpool st?, Stratford?) but also has a large DOO route network. Guarded work to Norwich but how long does it take to get onto that?
A long, loooooong time AIUI
Depots inside the M25 are Liverpool Street and Ilford. Bishops Stortford is also nearby
 

StevieH

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2020
Messages
104
Location
Stoke
I'd personally say the best is probably an intercity TOC with a depot outside of the South East. Good salary, work which doesn't involve DOO or 100 stops per day and reasonably low living costs. Since there is an effective 50% tax rate above £50k-ish, unless you're paying a lot into BRASS, I'd say it's better to save on living costs than to go for a top salary in London. That's purely from a lifestyle perspective and if one has lots of family/friends in/around London, it becomes very different.

I knew Eurostar had a "driver retention package" but I didn't think it was as high as £85k, I thought it was about £75k-ish with Sundays inside, accounting for the fact that ASLEF Company Info is usually out-of-date. Nonetheless still very good money, I don't see them recruiting for a while unless they have a lot of retirements coming up.
Correct but it will come as a surprise to most people on here a lot of us already live North of London and don't need to move to get near an Intercity TOC outside London lol
 

Ception

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2017
Messages
27
Hi Guys

Does anyone know what routes Three Bridges (Thameslink) signs? is it express/metro work or purely metro work?

Many Thanks
 

387star

On Moderation
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
6,653
Hi Guys

Does anyone know what routes Three Bridges (Thameslink) signs? is it express/metro work or purely metro work?

Many Thanks
I used to work there I was the first trainee to Qualify!

It's a good depot. Used to have Sutton work but now it's all mainline and with fewer nights than it once had apparently

Work is Bedford to Brighton, south London diversions and east grinstead and Horsham

Large depot with mostly new drivers. Has a decent mess room now the original was adequate. Personally I think Horsham is a better depot ad it's more out the way although less variety (just Peterborough)
 

Class2ldn

Member
Joined
25 Feb 2011
Messages
1,163
Nights are not too bad really, every 15 weeks or so at bridges.
No recruitment for a while though I believe.
Horsham like you say is just Peterborough although most of them only go to finsbury park.
Good people at bridges for the most part but that can be shift dependant lol
 

Coach Carter

Member
Joined
21 Sep 2018
Messages
227
Since there is an effective 50% tax rate above £50k-ish
You actually only end up paying an extra 10% in tax on your earnings over the £50k a year threshold. Everything above £50k does get the 40% tax rate but your national insurance contributions for the earnings above £50k drop from 12% down to 2%
The first £50k gets combined tax of 32% and anything above the £50k is taxed at an over all 42%
 

MatthewLdn

Member
Joined
15 Jan 2020
Messages
194
Location
London
You actually only end up paying an extra 10% in tax on your earnings over the £50k a year threshold. Everything above £50k does get the 40% tax rate but your national insurance contributions for the earnings above £50k drop from 12% down to 2%
The first £50k gets combined tax of 32% and anything above the £50k is taxed at an over all 42%

42% is an absolute joke, it’s just too much tax. Not to mention all the other taxes they slap on you such as council tax, VAT, fuel duty tax and so on. The government take every penny they can get out of our pocket and everyone just rolls over and takes it! It really grinds on me just how much we’re taxed in this country.
 

godfreycomplex

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2016
Messages
1,296
42% is an absolute joke, it’s just too much tax. Not to mention all the other taxes they slap on you such as council tax, VAT, fuel duty tax and so on. The government take every penny they can get out of our pocket and everyone just rolls over and takes it! It really grinds on me just how much we’re taxed in this country.
#firstworldproblems
 

MatthewLdn

Member
Joined
15 Jan 2020
Messages
194
Location
London
#firstworldproblems

You’re right, it is first world problems and we are very fortunate to find ourselves born in this country. However, I still believe that we are taxed too highly. And the taxes they do collect, they’re largely mishandled and wasted.
 

Dieseldriver

Member
Joined
9 Apr 2012
Messages
971
42% is an absolute joke, it’s just too much tax. Not to mention all the other taxes they slap on you such as council tax, VAT, fuel duty tax and so on. The government take every penny they can get out of our pocket and everyone just rolls over and takes it! It really grinds on me just how much we’re taxed in this country.
I'm a Train Driver on over £50,000 which means I am in the higher tax bracket at the top end of my salary. Personally I don't worry about it, I still take home a good salary that gives me a good quality of life and think it's fair that I pay more in tax.
Someone on £50,000 is still earning more than someone on £30,000.
 

StevieH

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2020
Messages
104
Location
Stoke
I'm a Train Driver on over £50,000 which means I am in the higher tax bracket at the top end of my salary. Personally I don't worry about it, I still take home a good salary that gives me a good quality of life and think it's fair that I pay more in tax.
Someone on £50,000 is still earning more than someone on £30,000.
Without derailing the topic talking about Tax I agree tax is a joke given they waste huge amounts of our money on crap that is not in our interests it doesn't just go on schools and hospitals like they'd like you to believe.
 

387star

On Moderation
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
6,653
I think at Thameslink Horsham is probably dead mans shoes now as it is one of the few Thameslink depots that is not truly 24 hour as well as having a decent route to Peterborough and is relatively small at around 40 drivers. I preferred the Peterborough run to Bedford as you tend to get more greens and you have some really nice runs like 100 from Finsbury to Stevenage and 100 from Huntingdon to Peterborough. Peterborough is another dead mans depot although apparently far bigger than it used to be. The flip side is all the Peterborough trains run via Redhill so unless you part cover Cambridge work or are skip stopping you miss out the fun of the express run from Gatwick to Croydon. Horsham has a very nice depot building and the people there are really good as is the management. The depot was mostly filled with ex Southern along with a few from Thameslink depots.

Three Bridges have some very early starts and late finishes although thankfully they have depot drivers to shunt the trains around and they often prep them too. Both depots are better for work, I imagine, than the inner depots at Southern unless you are in the top links. Thameslink does not have links.
 

Lewlew

Member
Joined
15 Oct 2019
Messages
748
Location
London
Without derailing the topic talking about Tax I agree tax is a joke given they waste huge amounts of our money on crap that is not in our interests it doesn't just go on schools and hospitals like they'd like you to believe.
Just because it doesn't benefit you personally doesn't mean that the money they spend is a waste.

Other countries have MUCH higher tax rates (Scandinavia). With the higher tax band now at £50k we are paying less tax on our higher salaries than even just last year.
 

rail-god

On Moderation
Joined
13 Apr 2020
Messages
91
Location
UK
With the higher tax band now at £50k we are paying less tax on our higher salaries than even just last year.

This is incorrect.

Last tax year 2019/20 the high rate band was also £50k, same as this tax year.

It hasn't be increase this year so if you take into account inflation you are paying more tax in real terms.

Just wait until we have to pay back the furlough bill !!!!!!!!
 

StevieH

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2020
Messages
104
Location
Stoke
Just because it doesn't benefit you personally doesn't mean that the money they spend is a waste.

Other countries have MUCH higher tax rates (Scandinavia). With the higher tax band now at £50k we are paying less tax on our higher salaries than even just last year.
Without being in danger of getting political it's not about it benefitting me personally but about it being spent to the detriment of the British people and effecting them negatively. I'd happily pay to help our people but not when it does the opposite.
 

dan4291

Member
Joined
9 Dec 2019
Messages
331
Location
County Durham
Getting back on topic, I notice some depots only sign a few routes, or even only one in some cases, as well as only one type of traction. For drivers is a wide range of routes and traction better, or does it pose challenges in route knowledge and maintaining competence? My question's more aimed at qualified drivers as I would imagine trainees are happy with anything they can get!
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,399
Location
UK
Getting back on topic, I notice some depots only sign a few routes,

Few is easier in terms of competency management and having a deeper understanding of your routes. However, many see it as boring and that can be depressing at times. Complacency can lead to incident too. When your looking to the long term doing the same thing day in day out for 20 odd years it can be hard on people. Which is why you see that some Drivers prefer variety in their days and in their careers

or even only one in some cases, as well as only one type of traction. For drivers is a wide range of routes and traction better, or does it pose challenges in route knowledge and maintaining competence?

Traction is similar but it does come with added benefits. Again, competency management is easier and operationally there are benefits too. Incidents tend to be less as swapping out units and constantly changing train lengths etc can be taxing mentally. Of those I've spoken to about having a single traction to drive, they love it. I don't think what you drive is much of an issue... unless you get junk. I think most are Multi-Traction nowadays. Personally I like new and shiny.

In both cases it is a matter of preference. Both have their issues and neither is the best fit for everyone. There is no real Good, Better, or Best. Its just personal preference.
 

baz962

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2017
Messages
3,281
Few is easier in terms of competency management and having a deeper understanding of your routes. However, many see it as boring and that can be depressing at times. Complacency can lead to incident too. When your looking to the long term doing the same thing day in day out for 20 odd years it can be hard on people. Which is why you see that some Drivers prefer variety in their days and in their careers



Traction is similar but it does come with added benefits. Again, competency management is easier and operationally there are benefits too. Incidents tend to be less as swapping out units and constantly changing train lengths etc can be taxing mentally. Of those I've spoken to about having a single traction to drive, they love it. I don't think what you drive is much of an issue... unless you get junk. I think most are Multi-Traction nowadays. Personally I like new and shiny.

In both cases it is a matter of preference. Both have their issues and neither is the best fit for everyone. There is no real Good, Better, or Best. Its just personal preference.
For some reason , this post made me think of the poor soul's driving the Romford to Upminster route.
 

Cassy j

Member
Joined
15 Jun 2019
Messages
128
Does the next claim on the aslef website mean they will negotiate a pay rise? How long does this usually take and what is the expected increase? It says April 2020 for chiltern any ideas of the expected increase?
 

Ception

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2017
Messages
27
I used to work there I was the first trainee to Qualify!

It's a good depot. Used to have Sutton work but now it's all mainline and with fewer nights than it once had apparently

Work is Bedford to Brighton, south London diversions and east grinstead and Horsham

Large depot with mostly new drivers. Has a decent mess room now the original was adequate. Personally I think Horsham is a better depot ad it's more out the way although less variety (just Peterborough)
Thanks a lot for the info really useful, does anyone know the earliest book on time at Bridges. Thanks
 

Ception

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2017
Messages
27
Nights are not too bad really, every 15 weeks or so at bridges.
No recruitment for a while though I believe.
Horsham like you say is just Peterborough although most of them only go to finsbury park.
Good people at bridges for the most part but that can be shift dependant lol
Thanks for the info, much appreciated
 

choochoochoo

Established Member
Joined
6 Aug 2013
Messages
1,215
Anyone know much about Hornsey Depot and Great Northern?
What would you like to know ?

2 Links:
Outer: 700/387/365 - Kings Cross - Cambridge inc. Cambridge sidings (With Hertford Diversionary)
Inner: 717 - Moorgate/Kings Cross - Baldock (via Main line or Hertford)

And for the purpose of this thread, the inner link is definitely not a popular one.
 
Last edited:

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,220
Location
London
What would you like to know ?

2 Links:
Outer: 700/387/365 - Kings Cross - Cambridge inc. Cambridge sidings (With Hertford Diversionary)
Inner: 717 - Moorgate/Kings Cross - Baldock (via Main line or Hertford)

And for the purpose of this thread, the inner link is definitely not a popular one.

“Cambridge cruisers” must be nice to drive. I’d love to experience driving a Networker at 100mph. They’re shaky enough at 75mph :lol:.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top