Most Unreliable Multiple Unit

[Wyrleybart]

Has to be the class 180.
Beautiful train above the solebar but shockingly designed and seemingly impossible to me maintained for reliablilty. I cannot really comment on the GCR ones but FGW fought a battle to try and keep them in traffic, then they were fobbed off on FHT. Numerous thermal incidents later they were replaced by 802s and the quartet were shifted to EMR. Nearly a year later after a nice pretty plum livery an average of one a day seems to enter traffic, and if they are lucky it complete's it's daily diagram.

These are supposed to provide short term cover by binning the HSTs until the 810s replace them. Apparently the 0519 DBY-STP and 1705 STP-NOT should be a pair everyday. How many days have a pair worked up until noiw ?

 

[Bald Rick]

Has to be the class 180.
Beautiful train above the solebar but shockingly designed and seemingly impossible to me maintained for reliablilty. I cannot really comment on the GCR ones but FGW fought a battle to try and keep them in traffic, then they were fobbed off on FHT. Numerous thermal incidents later they were replaced by 802s and the quartet were shifted to EMR. Nearly a year later after a nice pretty plum livery an average of one a day seems to enter traffic, and if they are lucky it complete's it's daily diagram.

These are supposed to provide short term cover by binning the HSTs until the 810s replace them. Apparently the 0519 DBY-STP and 1705 STP-NOT should be a pair everyday. How many days have a pair worked up until noiw ?

I can’t answer any of that, but what I can say is that they are much quieter when they go past at speed than the Meridians.

 

[mjmason1996]

The Tyne and Wear Metrocars have become rather unreliable in the last few years, though that is probably an age thing more than anything else!

 

[D6130]

I can’t answer any of that, but what I can say is that they are much quieter when they go past at speed than the Meridians.

That's probably because it's very rare that all the engines are working! When I used to travel on them regularly from West Yorkshire to London and vice-versa, I used to hope and pray that there would be one engine out on a standard class vehicle so that I could have a nice quiet ride. You could usually keep time on the ECML with one out....but with two out you would be struggling.

 

[Mat17]

142s were pretty unreliable in their first few years before they had modifications.

158s had quite a few issues during leaf fall in their early days too, they had to be paired with 156 vehicles so they didn't become lost to the track circuits - IIRC.

175s were plagued with problems when they were introduced.

 

[DB]

I'll start off with a modern one...

Certainly in their early days, Voyagers had a reputation of sitting down on the Dawlish Sea Wall during rough weather, due to some electrical equipment being on the roof if I remember correctly.

That's more a design issue which didn't take account of a specific risk rather than general unreliability - apart from that, they've proved to work very reliably - it's highly unusual for one to completely fail.

180s on the other hand...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

142s were pretty unreliable in their first few years before they had modifications.

158s had quite a few issues during leaf fall in their early days too, they had to be paired with 156 vehicles so they didn't become lost to the track circuits - IIRC.

175s were plagued with problems when they were introduced.

141s were rather unreliable when first introduced, and at the time couldn't couple to the later second generation units until after they were refurbished in the late 1980s. One of them (141001) never entered service in unrefurbished condition, instead becoming a spares donor for the rest of the fleet at Neville Hill.
142s had their issues but none of them self-immolated unlike their 143 cousins. 144023's centre car tried to end it all a few years back near Rochdale, but was repaired.
155s of course were notorious for issues with doors and transmission when first introduced, which led to locomotives lasting a fair bit longer than planned on certain routes.

 

[mightyena]

That's more a design issue which didn't take account of a specific risk rather than general unreliability - apart from that, they've proved to work very reliably - it's highly unusual for one to completely fail.

180s on the other hand...

Brake resistors notwithstanding, Voyagers/Meridians seem to be incredibly overbuilt. Probably a combination of the train and the timetable, but several years ago I was on a 5 car 222 that managed to make up time despite only having 3 engines!

 

[Energy]

Brake resistors notwithstanding, Voyagers/Meridians seem to be incredibly overbuilt. Probably a combination of the train and the timetable, but several years ago I was on a 5 car 222 that managed to make up time despite only having 3 engines!

They were the first DEMU intercity train and at the time Bombardier didn't have Adtranz so this was their first train in the UK. The target for voyagers was high acceleration although I think they overestimated.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They were the first DEMU intercity train and at the time Bombardier didn't have Adtranz so this was their first train in the UK. The target for voyagers was high acceleration although I think they overestimated.

Apart from HSTs and Blue Pullmans...

 

[Energy]

Apart from HSTs and Blue Pullmans...

Diesel Electric Multiple Unit.

In pure fantasy land I would have a voyager underneath (although smaller engines) and the 180s body and interior.

 

[hexagon789]

Diesel Electric Multiple Unit.

In pure fantasy land I would have a voyager underneath (although smaller engines) and the 180s body and interior.

The Blue Pullmans were multiple units

As in they could (and did) run in multiple.

 

[TRAX]

Brake resistors notwithstanding, Voyagers/Meridians seem to be incredibly overbuilt. Probably a combination of the train and the timetable, but several years ago I was on a 5 car 222 that managed to make up time despite only having 3 engines!

That's not surprising, DEMUs tend to be much more capable than DHMUs and DMMUs.

 

[superkev]

180 by far. it surprises me if one hasn't been on fire within the past week. when they ran our line up the Cotswolds a good 40% of trains diagrammed for these sets were cancelled.

I've always been puzzled by all the reported 180 woes. They have virtually the same engine and transmission as the 185s yet no one seems to be able to get them working properly. Some cope better than others. GC ones seem to be tolerable compared with Hull trains.
K

 

[Miles Bown]

Weren't the 323's very troublesome when introduced? It's funny that some of the most unreliable units have come to settle down and provide an extremely good service (458s, 175s, 323s etc). All the junipers struggled to find their feet to start with, the 458s being in-and-out of service for 10 years before they finally became one of the most reliable fleets ever iirc.

 

[Bald Rick]

Weren't the 323's very troublesome when introduced?

Yes they were awful. But they were the first AC unit to use GTO thyristor traction, and there were lots of concerns about interference. When the OLE got icy they just packed up. Took a while to get it sorted - first one built in ‘92, first in service in ‘94, but it was ‘97 before they were reliable enough to completely eradicate the slam door stock on the Cross City.

 

[hexagon789]

Brake resistors notwithstanding, Voyagers/Meridians seem to be incredibly overbuilt. Probably a combination of the train and the timetable, but several years ago I was on a 5 car 222 that managed to make up time despite only having 3 engines!

I think they slackened the timetables after the 'Princess' fiasco. Certainly the Voyagers have been downrated for some years now and can still keep to the timetables

Yes they were awful. But they were the first AC unit to use GTO thyristor traction, and there were lots of concerns about interference. When the OLE got icy they just packed up. Took a while to get it sorted - first one built in ‘92, first in service in ‘94, but it was ‘97 before they were reliable enough to completely eradicate the slam door stock on the Cross City.

And wasn't there one point during the 323's early days where the old stock went boom (something literally exploded on a unit, transformer or something maybe) and they were all withdrawn too resulting in cancellations left; right and centre

 

[Bald Rick]

And wasn't there one point during the 323's early days where the old stock went boom (something literally exploded on a unit, transformer or something maybe) and they were all withdrawn too resulting in cancellations left; right and centre

Possibly. Memory a bit hazy then as it was peak lager.

 

[D6130]

Possibly. Memory a bit hazy then as it was peak lager.

I seem to remember that there was a major problem with the David Brown motor gearing.

 

[hexagon789]

Possibly. Memory a bit hazy then as it was peak lager.

Something I read somewhere, might be taking rubbish but trains blowing up (sort of) has a habit of sticking in the mind

 

[XAM2175]

And wasn't there one point during the 323's early days where the old stock went boom (something literally exploded on a unit, transformer or something maybe) and they were all withdrawn too resulting in cancellations left; right and centre

Dishonourable mention here to the Class 303 transformer explosions, necessitating a very hasty return to steam-hauled services while things were sorted out

 

[43096]

Something I read somewhere, might be taking rubbish but trains blowing up (sort of) has a habit of sticking in the mind

I do vaguely remember something about Class 308 transformers when they were in the West Mids.

 

[D6130]

I do vaguely remember something about Class 308 transformers when they were in the West Mids.

I think you mean West Yorkshire. Three different 308's (138/155/162) suffered fairly big explosions in the high-voltage cable joints linking the pantographs to the transformers in the late 1990s. The first two occurred in platform 2 at Leeds a couple of weeks apart; the one in 308 155 blew the brake van doors off and catapulted the guard's seat out onto the platform seconds after the guard had vacated the van. The explosion in 308 162 happened in Neville Hill depot a few years later and the unit never ran again.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I think you mean West Yorkshire. Three different 308's (138/155/162) suffered fairly big explosions in the high-voltage cable joints linking the pantographs to the transformers in the late 1990s. The first two occurred in platform 2 at Leeds a couple of weeks apart; the one in 308 155 blew the brake van doors off and catapulted the guard's seat out onto the platform seconds after the guard had vacated the van. The explosion in 308 162 happened in Neville Hill depot a few years later and the unit never ran again.

Wow. Thanks for that. Didn't know the explosions were that severe.

 

[43096]

I think you mean West Yorkshire. Three different 308's (138/155/162) suffered fairly big explosions in the high-voltage cable joints linking the pantographs to the transformers in the late 1990s. The first two occurred in platform 2 at Leeds a couple of weeks apart; the one in 308 155 blew the brake van doors off and catapulted the guard's seat out onto the platform seconds after the guard had vacated the van. The explosion in 308 162 happened in Neville Hill depot a few years later and the unit never ran again.

Ta. Were they split between West Mids and West Yorkshire at one point?

 

[D6130]

Ta. Were they split between West Mids and West Yorkshire at one point?

Not that I am aware of but, at the roughly the same time as West Yorkshire had a batch of ex-LTS, Ex-GE 308s, Greater Manchester had a batch of ex-GE 305s and ScotRail had a small number of 305s for the Edinburgh-North Berwick service. When I was a driver at Skipton, I rather liked the 308s, even though they were on their last legs after a couple of years storage at Pig's Bay (Shoeburyness). Despite their unreliabilty, when on form, they were capable of a good turn of speed, especially after reduction from four to three cars. 308 163 was the best of the bunch and I once managed to get her up to 84 (tut! tut!) on a late-night Ilkley-Skipton ECS job (in the days before OTDR and TPWS).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I've always been puzzled by all the reported 180 woes. They have virtually the same engine and transmission as the 185s yet no one seems to be able to get them working properly. Some cope better than others. GC ones seem to be tolerable compared with Hull trains.
K

The answer begins with A, ends in M and has "LSTO" in the middle...

 

[DB]

The answer begins with A, ends in M and has "LSTO" in the middle...

Not really - the Pendolinos were assembled in the same factory around the same time and have proved extremely reliable. The 180s clearly have significant design and build issues.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not really - the Pendolinos were assembled in the same factory around the same time and have proved extremely reliable. The 180s clearly have significant design and build issues.

Given the issues with 175s, 180s, 334s and 458s there's an argument that the 390s are just the exception that proves the rule.
If a car manufacturer had one model that had bulletproof reliability but four others at the opposite end of the scale, how do you think their public reputation would be overall?

 

[43096]

Not really - the Pendolinos were assembled in the same factory around the same time and have proved extremely reliable. The 180s clearly have significant design and build issues.

I would argue the point on the Pendolinos. “Adequately reliable” is possibly more accurate.