Most violent London commuter trains

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Abpj17

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Not the best written article in the world, but another reason to hate Thameslink. It's not clear how many of the crimes were actually violent or interlinked, but to have 3x any other late night train is pretty impressive.

A late-night train packed with revellers and workers heading home from London’s Blackfriars station has been named as the capital’s most violent late night commuter service.

The 1.04am Saturday morning train bound for Bedford, which is operated by Thameslink, recorded 23 crimes last year, including theft, sexual assault and battery.

The 23 recorded crimes resulted in five arrests and two convictions.

The figures were revealed in a Freedom of Information request to British Transport Police focusing on London’s nine busiest commuter routes to the Home Counties between midnight and 4am.

...contined

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...rvice-a3243221.html?google_editors_picks=true
 
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BRblue

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NSEFAN

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BRblue said:
I wonder what the guards were doing...... oh yeah I remember now.
I would think that management expect the guard to remain out of harm's way on such a service. Should the guard come to harm, sods law says it would be the guard's fault for challenging the special snowlakes who are causing trouble. :roll:
 

deltic

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The data is meaningless - need to know incidents per passengers to make any useful comparison
 

AM9

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The data is meaningless - need to know incidents per passengers to make any useful comparison

I agree the whole post is a bit misguided:
"... another reason to hate Thameslink.." sounds more like a personal fixation that any real world issues.
The report talks of BTP 'focusing on London’s nine busiest commuter routes to the Home Counties between midnight and 4am' Well how many routes out of London have as full a night service as Thameslink? None. There is a difference between a train departingf around 01:00 that is just one of a regular service and what would be the last train on most other mainline routes out of London. The passenger mix is different and the attention from station and train crew is far more visible for a last train. Let's see what happens when the 12:30 'ish tubes leaving central London aren't given the 'last train' attention.
 

Deepgreen

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Agreed - a pointless exercise in isolation. Guards would probably be of little consequence in such situations other than to call the police/inform control, etc., as they should not be endangering themselves.
 
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I wonder what the guards were doing...... oh yeah I remember now. :roll:

even if there was a guard on the service, i suspectthe answer would be hiding in a cab on the phone to BTP hoping they or the local force could meet the train at the next stop
 

Puffing Devil

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even if there was a guard on the service, i suspect the answer would be hiding in a cab on the phone to BTP hoping they or the local force could meet the train at the next stop

Agree.

BTP should be given the resources to police trains such as this and deal with the offenders.
 

pethadine82

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I wonder how many of them had valid tickets.
RPI should be on board to deal with that as criminals will probably not have a ticket.
When FCC ran things there were regular RPI blocks on late night trains at 1am at Peterborough and they caught a number of people out
 

Wolfie

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The data is meaningless - need to know incidents per passengers to make any useful comparison

Agreed. I would also say that using only reported incidents does not provide a solid basis.

I would think that management expect the guard to remain out of harm's way on such a service. Should the guard come to harm, sods law says it would be the guard's fault for challenging the special snowlakes who are causing trouble. :roll:

Given that Thameslink is DOO methinks you rather missed the point of the OP.....
 
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tsr

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I wonder how many of them had valid tickets.
RPI should be on board to deal with that as criminals will probably not have a ticket.
When FCC ran things there were regular RPI blocks on late night trains at 1am at Peterborough and they caught a number of people out

I usually find where "last trains" exist, people are more likely to buy a ticket than on an overnight train on a 24 hour route. The logic is that people don't want to get into confrontation and be removed from their last train home, but 24 hour services are used not just by law-abiding passengers, but more often also by people who will just roam up and down and get off/change trains to fare-dodge or commit other offences wherever convenient.

If RPIs did blocks on overnight Thameslink services, I suspect they would come across many people who were not just devoid of tickets but also doing other things they shouldn't - whereas last trains on the GN and Southern routes would quite possibly simply have more of those who just hadn't purchased a ticket and would do so when challenged, because they had to do so to get home.

But what do I know? I only happen to be a railway employee who commutes on overnight Southern and Thameslink services virtually every week...
 

74A

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I have an idea. Lets not run this train anymore then the problem will go away. I know in BR days if there were any particular problems they would simply stop running the train. The last train from Swansea. to Neath on a friday night used to be 2030 because they had so many problems.
 

47271

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If it helps with context, if the OP hates GTR Thameslink for this now then they would've hated Thameslink under BR for it in the late eighties and early nineties, including the UK's first reported steaming robbery on a Luton service in 1988 or 1989 as I recall.

I used late night Thameslink services regularly in the mid to late nineties and witnessed quite a bit of action myself, although thankfully never experienced anything directly.
 

NSEFAN

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Wolfie said:
Given that Thameslink is DOO methinks you rather missed the point of the OP.....
And my point was similar to others on here, that if the service was booked to have a guard, then they would probably be instructed to avoid conflict. If this means hiding out in the back cab then so be it. Well known troublesome services should have a police presence to help keep the peace. I apologise for not making this clear from the outset.
 
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Wolfie

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And my point was similar to others on here, that if the service was booked to have a guard, then they would probably be instructed to avoid conflict. If this means hiding out in the back cab then so be it. Well known troublesome services should have a police presence to help keep the peace. I apologise for making this clear from the outset.
l was probably being a bit of a pedant (if so, sorry) and agree completely with your substantive point, particularly when the staff member is working for a vile company like GTR which clearly places no value on it's employees.
 

Islineclear3_1

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l was probably being a bit of a pedant (if so, sorry) and agree completely with your substantive point, particularly when the staff member is working for a vile company like GTR which clearly places no value on it's employees.

Vandalism, robbery, antisocial behaviour etc is nothing new on the railway and does not just happen on late night Thameslink services.

I admit, South and South East London probably see the most on-train/station crime but CCTV is fitted on most trains so that all the driver has to do at the end of his journey is to hand over the CCTV to the police to investigate.

I don't know if crime is any worse now than in the days of slam door compartment stock where one or two horrific murders come to mind (and which occurred in broad daylight...)
 
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ChiefPlanner

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There are a good number of awkward trains - the last off Reading towards Wokingham used to be particularly troublesome , and in my day - the last up train on the DC lines from Watford on a Friday was a real train to avoid if you could. I wont go into detail - but was taken off in the end for good reason) - the Abbey branch had a fearsome reputation also. We used to put management / BTP and security on some of these trains - in the end it proved to be an almost impossible job.
 

amateur

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l was probably being a bit of a pedant (if so, sorry) and agree completely with your substantive point, particularly when the staff member is working for a vile company like GTR which clearly places no value on it's employees.

Sound like a disgruntled employee. I'm sure there are plenty of people who work for gtr and are grateful to have a job with them! Y
 

Wolfie

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Sound like a disgruntled employee. I'm sure there are plenty of people who work for gtr and are grateful to have a job with them! Y
For what it is worth I have repeatedly made it clear on this site that I have never had the (mis?)fortune to work on the railways. I am actually a career "Whitehall warrior"..
Working in the public sector has not been a barrel of laughs over the last few years but even "call me Dave" and his chums haven't pulled the stunts that GTR have....

My only involvement with GoVia-run franchises (Southeastern, GTR and LM) have been as a passnger. They have all had certain common characteristics relating to constant penny-pinching, regardless of the impact on passengers, and indeed a complete lack of any apparent customer care whatsoever from the management.

As for all of those happy GTR staff, pse tell me more...at least in the Southern area the platform staff have voted fo industrial action, the guards have voted for industrial action and the drivers are, according to another stream on this very site, balloting for industrial action.... yup, obviously a very happy bunch<D

Sound like a disgruntled employee. I'm sure there are plenty of people who work for gtr and are grateful to have a job with them! Y
Yes, a Mr C Horton.
When you look at that individual's career record - the Connex fiasco, Southeastern which was consistently voted as the worst franchise by the travelling population, one wonders, with the possible exception of a large tongue (most likely often brown), what useful attributes the "gentleman" brings to the table....
 
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Abpj17

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If it helps with context, if the OP hates GTR Thameslink for this now then they would've hated Thameslink under BR for it in the late eighties and early nineties, including the UK's first reported steaming robbery on a Luton service in 1988 or 1989 as I recall.

I used late night Thameslink services regularly in the mid to late nineties and witnessed quite a bit of action myself, although thankfully never experienced anything directly.

I was still at school in the 80s and 90s. Didn't start commuting regularly on Thameslink until I bought my house in '03. (Though my dad commuted on trains and coach in the 80s and 90s, switching between the two every couple of years depending on which was in the worst phase - tho the coach was never bad per se and financially v. good, just inflexible, longer journey and prone to getting caught in traffic; I did coaches for a year when living in Dunstable early on in my career when 9-5 was feasible but now living walking distance from Leagrave)

I regularly get late night trains although the worst I've seen was a group taking coke. Most is low-level abuse - shouting, drunk and disorderly etc. The after-effects are often visible - cancellations the day after due to vandalism, the number of loos not working on trains etc.
 

Antman

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Vandalism, robbery, antisocial behaviour etc is nothing new on the railway and does not just happen on late night Thameslink services.

I admit, South and South East London probably see the most on-train/station crime but CCTV is fitted on most trains so that all the driver has to do at the end of his journey is to hand over the CCTV to the police to investigate.

I don't know if crime is any worse now than in the days of slam door compartment stock where one or two horrific murders come to mind (and which occurred in broad daylight...)

I assume you're refering the the murder on the Orpington to Victoria train in March 1988? This case has been in the news recently with police making a fresh appeal for information, they have a DNA profile of the suspect but they're not on the DNA database.

The onset of CCTV has undoubtedly reduced crime in general on the rail network.
 
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