MU car codes, and HST/loco coach types

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corfield

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Hi,

Just a quick question, I was looking at the formation of modern Multiple Units and can't work out what the "L" is for in the following

Class 168: DMSL,MSL,DMSL
Class 220: DMSL,RMS,MSL,DMFL [but no L on Class 221 !]

From here:
http://www.therailwaycentre.com/New DMU Tech Data /DMU_220_221.html [can find others by changing the number in the address]

Also, without opening Pandoras box, what actually is the "correct" designation for HST standard, first and current restaurant coaches ? Is this different from say the Class 67 or 90 hauled ones ? (e.g. Chiltern Mainline, Anglia/North Wales etc.).

TFO/FO ?, TSO/SO ?, RFM (newer ?), TRFB/TRUB and so on.

Is the T for trailer? or Tourist ?, and why if something is labelled a Standard Open, do you need another designator, as the FOs generally seem to be without. I know there is/was a difference between HST and loco hauled but I'm basically completely confused, and trying to read up and find out has worsened that (by adding real danger to my little knowledge...) hence resorting to a question !

Indeed, my confusion goes into Mk1/2 stock, as here http://www.railtourinfo.co.uk/coach.html refers to Mk3 FO and TSO, plus Mk1 SO and TSO [NYMR set] and Mk2 SO & TSO [Green Train]

cheers.
 
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ainsworth74

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The wiki page on coach designations is pretty good on explaining it all you can find it here.

Currently HST vehicles are TF, TS, TGS, TRFB, TRSB, TRSMB (I think anyway). O is mostly optional these days as pretty much all rolling stock bar that used on heritage or rail tours is open. T these days stands for trailer rather than tourist. L is normally used to denote a lavatory but is often omitted I find from formation codes (though normally it is included on DMUs).
 

hello

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interesting, i was always under the impression that it was the following

220 : dmsl, ms(a), ms(b), dmf
221 : dmsl, ms(a), ms(b), ms(b), dmf

and since virgin have changed their arrangement, it would be

221 : dmsl, ms(b), ms(b), ms(a), dmf
 

Schnellzug

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potentially confusingly, "T" in loco hauled stock (e.g. TSO) I think originally, at any rate, meant "Tourist".

from the Wiki list, I like Trailer First Open Lavatory Handbrake.
Is it the Lavatory that has the Handbrake, or is it the lavatory that's Open?
 

jopsuk

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When the codes were first introduced, "normal" Second Class could be 2+1, whilst 2+2 was considered "Tourist" but was still a step up from Third Class- is how I understand it. So a hauled SO should be a bit more luxurious than a TSO

The Trailer designation for HST carriages though does come from their original designation by BR as class 253/254 Multiple Units.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Letters mean different things for different types of stock, for multiple units and coaching stock the following usually applies:

A - Auxiliary (for multiple units)
B - Brake
C - Composite
D - Driving vehicle (prefix) or Disabled accommodation (suffix)
E - End (Mk4) or Either class of accommodation (Sleepers)
F - First class
K - Corridor
L - Lavatory or Lounge
M - Motor coach
O - Open (not often used for multiple units these days)
R - Restaurant
RB - Restaurant Buffet
RK - Kitchen
P - Pantry or Pullman
S - Standard class
SL - Sleeper
T - Trailer or Tourist (both prefix) or Trolley Buffet (suffix)
U - Unclassified

There may be others, but these should not be confused with the letters of NPCCS or wagons
 

jopsuk

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L does though stand for "Luggage" on the soon-to-be-gone Class 460 Driving Motor Luggage First Open
 

sprinterguy

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L does though stand for "Luggage" on the soon-to-be-gone Class 460 Driving Motor Luggage First Open
It also stood for "luggage" in the Southern Regions' Motor Luggage Vans (MLVs) and the GLVs used on Gatwick Express services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the 180 K denoted Kitchen - the designation being MKS.
I thought those vehicles were always MSLRB? The catering provision on a 180 certainly doesn't seem sufficient to constitute a kitchen to me at any rate...
 

Schnellzug

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They seemed to get thoroughly confused with the motor brake buffet cars on the class 442s before they were messed about with by Southern.
When they were introduced I think they were MBLS; Motor Buffet Luggage Standard? Or Wiki Pedia suggests Motor Brake Lounge Standard.
According to the Platform 5 book for the last year when they were with SWT, they were by then (or perhaps Platform 5 just decided to call them) MBRMB, which I presume is Motor Brake Restaurant (?) Miniature Buffet? That's a bit of a mouthful.
 

hairyhandedfool

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L does though stand for "Luggage" on the soon-to-be-gone Class 460 Driving Motor Luggage First Open

Ah yes, that's a good call, hadn't thought of that one.

It also stood for "luggage" in the Southern Regions' Motor Luggage Vans (MLVs) and the GLVs used on Gatwick Express services....

Well, I would have seen them as NPCCS or similar, but I can see your thinking.
 

jopsuk

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On EMUs, P stands for "Pantograph". So a PTS is a Pantograph Trailer Standard, such as in a Cl315 with is formed DMS(1)-PTS-TS-DMS(2).

O L Leigh

What's the full designation for the 379 pantograph car? I've seen the label but forgotten the full order of everything on it.
 

John55

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potentially confusingly, "T" in loco hauled stock (e.g. TSO) I think originally, at any rate, meant "Tourist".

from the Wiki list, I like Trailer First Open Lavatory Handbrake.
Is it the Lavatory that has the Handbrake, or is it the lavatory that's Open?

It is easy to get carried away and believe there is a consistent meaning to these codes but as with most things the meaning tends to change over time. The system of coding vehicles by type FO, TSO etc was I believe an LNER system which British Railways adopted after 1948. This is quite separate from the Southern Railway (Region) codes for EMUs i.e. MLV, 2-BIL.

Originally of course T stood for Third so TK, TO, TTO, RT vehicles would be common on the railway, note T had two meanings which had to be deduced from the context.

For Kitchen cars K was the code. RK is for Restaurant Kitchen i.e. car with kitchen and seats to eat at. Up to the early 1960s such was the demand for dining on trains there had to be kitchens big enough to serve over 200 evening meals in 3 sittings on busy evening trains out of Euston, for example. Hence entire vehicles given over to food preparation. Therefore also the need for 3 coaches on a train entirely devoted to eating and not actually counting as part of the seating capacity of the train. No wonder the busy WCML trains were so long, especially with the LMS building TKs in the 1930s with only 39 seats!
 
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