Multiple Advances via tube

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by Shotton, 10 Jun 2019.

  1. Shotton

    Shotton New Member

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    Hi.

    I'm intending to travel to/from Chester and Newbury; I am using a 16-25 railcard.

    My intended itinerary is as follows.

    Sunday 21st July:

    17:35-17:53 (Chester-Crewe, offpeak return (£11.50))
    18:16-20:32 (Crewe- London Euston, advance (£5.95!))
    And, the part I am worried about, tube to Paddington, and:
    21:03-21:28(Paddington-Reading), 21:44-22:05(Reading-Newbury)- advance(£4.95)


    Friday 26th July:
    17:55-18:53(Newbury-Paddington, advance (£7.25)
    19:46-22:00(London Euston-Crewe, advance (£11.55))
    22:23-22:48(Crewe-Chester, offpeak return([£0.00]))

    This journey gives a total cost of £41.20, which is a significant saving on the ~£58 I was quoted by trainsplit, even when including the tube cost.


    However, I am worried that should I be delayed transiting in London (or indeed, before the transit), my onward travel tickets will not be valid (as the tube is not part of the national rail network, and thus my tickets are not a complete journey)- could someone clarify this?

    Thanks in advance :)
     
    Last edited: 10 Jun 2019
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  3. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    I believe that the 2103 from London Paddington is not in time. You can use the 2115 from London Paddington or later, according to National Rail Enquiries: upload_2019-6-10_22-31-45.png
     
  4. Shotton

    Shotton New Member

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    Thanks for the response- does this mean that, in general, a journey which includes the tube still represents a full journey; as, I believe my return journey meets the valid connection time.

    If this is the case I'll probably go ahead with the itinerary, and run the risk of being charged the full single from Paddington to Newbury.
     
  5. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I strongly advise against this; I recommend booking using an accredited ticket splitting site. This will give you a valid through itinerary.

    If you don't meet the minimum connection time you are not only saying goodbye to Delay Repay compensation for your entire journey but you may be also charged the appropriate (not full) fare from Paddington to Newbury ie. £17.25 on top of what you already paid.
     
  6. Shotton

    Shotton New Member

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    Thanks both for the advice- I will suck it up, and just book the trainsplit fare.
     
  7. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    You should be able to get the trainsplit fare significantly down to something similar to what you had above, plus the London to Newbury price for the 2115? I recommend ticking the box that says 'allow extra search time' and then selecting 'value' mode on the left and 'fixed time' on the right. If that doesn't help, try adding a via point of Atherstone (Warks) and change that to 'call at'. Another thing to try would be exclude operators and select CrossCountry and another via point of London Paddington.

    If that still doesn't work let us know how you get on.
     
    Last edited: 11 Jun 2019
  8. Belperpete

    Belperpete Member

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    Are you aware that the Circle, H&C and Metropolitan lines are all closed on Sunday 21st July?
    https://tfl.gov.uk/tube-dlr-overground/status/?Input=&lineIds=&dateTypeSelect=Future date&direction=&startDate=2019-07-21T00:00:00&endDate=2019-07-21T23:59:59#line-lul-metropolitan

    You will either need to go via Victoria and Bakerloo lines, or bus, between Euston and Paddington. Either way, I would allow plenty of time, particularly late-on. Half an hour might be a bit tight in my experience.

    If using split tickets either side of the tube, I would certainly carry an itinerary for the full journey in case you fail to make the connection.

    If none of your tickets include the tube portion (e.g. if you use an Oystercard) then there is a risk that you could be considered to be making separate journeys, which could cause problems with using your advance tickets if you miss your booked train at Paddington. In your shoes, I would book the whole journey from start to end with an accredited ticket splitting site as recommended by Yorkie, which should help avoid such problems, or at least provide additional support if there is a problem.
     
  9. extendedpaul

    extendedpaul Member

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    The itinerary posted by Starmill seems to suggest a 9 minute journey time from Euston to Paddington, including an 8 minute walk to Euston Square underground station. Surely not ?
     
  10. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Ignore the London Underground timings; trains run every few minutes and the only important thing is to allow the overall minimum interchange time between the two National Rail stations.
     
  11. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    Did you manage to get anything booked?
     
  12. Shotton

    Shotton New Member

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    After playing about with trainsplit and the like, I couldn't manage to get it to offer me the WMT fare from Crewe to Euston;

    So, seeing as the next service out from Paddington was also a cheap advance, I booked both tickets at an extra cost of £7.95, and will create a full journey itinerary using this ticket.

    Thanks all for the advice; the LU status was particularly useful as I wasn't aware you could look that far in advance at tube status. I will travel via Oxford Circus on the Victoria and Bakerloo line, and will update this thread on the day of the trip :)
     
  13. Belperpete

    Belperpete Member

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    Did you run this enquiry for 21st July? When I try, NRE gives the first train from Paddington as the 2133, not the 2115. Forty minutes to get from Euston to Paddington via Oxford Circus on a Sunday evening seems a bit tight to me, an hour a bit more realistic.
     
  14. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    The minimum connection time between Euston and Paddington is a contentious issue; it's always traditionally been a total of 43 minutes (calculated as 15+15+13 minutes) however in recent years journey planners have been 'encouraged' to allow an additional 5 minutes at certain times, when LU services operate less frequently.

    The contractual position is rather unclear; it used to be possible to refer to the Crossing London table in the National Rail Timetable to back up your case for the 43 minute connection being valid, but this table is no longer published.

    NRE allows both the traditional minimum connection time to be adhered to, but you need to tick a box in the advanced options to enable this.
     
  15. Belperpete

    Belperpete Member

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    Is this 15 minutes interchange at Euston, 15 minutes travelling time, and 13 minutes connection time at Paddington? If so, this would seem about right to me if taking a H&C/Circle line train, particularly at an off-peak time (such as Sunday evening). But it would seem impossibly tight to me if taking the Victoria line south to Oxford Circus, and then interchanging to the northbound Bakerloo.

    Do journey planners take into account engineering works on the "tube" that require passengers to take a longer route than usual, or even the bus instead of the tube? Taking another example, Victoria to Euston will take significantly longer than usual if the Victoria line is not running. Vauxhall to Euston isn't possible at all by tube if the Victoria line isn't running.
     
  16. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    The connection time at most of the larger London Terminals is 15 minutes, and this is the case for both Euston and Paddington. It's the Tube interchange time that is 13 minutes from 07:00 till 19:00 according to the journey planner data.

    No - there is a fixed amount of time allowed on all days, which simply varies by the time of departure to somewhat replicate the start and finish of service. The values in the journey planner data is shown at www.brtimes.com. If engineering works or other closures are occurring on the Tube then you are correct that some people may miss relatively tight connections such as the one from Euston to Paddington.
     
  17. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    43 minutes is loads of time for most people; it generally takes me half that time.

    It's actually a lot more robust than many of the 5 minute connections that are commonplace at single station interchanges across the network.
     
  18. Belperpete

    Belperpete Member

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    Loads of time for what? If you are talking about Euston to Paddington via the Circle, then I agree - I normally allow half-an-hour for St.P to Paddington. On the couple of occasions that I have had to go via Oxford Circus, however, it has taken me considerably longer. I quite frequently travel across London on Sunday evenings - when I travelled on the Vic last Sunday evening, for example, the interval between trains seemed to be about 6 minutes. Assuming the same kind of service interval on the Bakerloo, if you are unlucky you could spend 12 minutes just waiting on the platforms at Euston and Oxford Circus. Add on the actual travelling times, and interchange times at both ends, and 43 minutes looks tight.
     
  19. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    Euston - Paddington Via Oxford Circus on a Sunday evening takes 16 minutes according to TfL’s journey planner. In reality you’d probably do it faster than this most of the time.

    It’s 13 minutes via Euston Square, most of that being the walk from Euston to Euston Square.
     
  20. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Established Member

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    Would it be any quicker on the Central Line to Lancaster Gate then walk to Paddington?
     
  21. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    Not from Euston. You could probably walk it in the 43 minutes though.
     
  22. Surreytraveller

    Surreytraveller Established Member

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    Changing at Oxford Circus I meant! Although your suggestion of walking between terminals is probably quicker than a lot of people realise - you just have to know where you're going!
     
  23. Belperpete

    Belperpete Member

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    I am afraid TfL journey planner needs taking with a large pinch of salt. Euston to Oxford Circus is likewise 6 minutes on a Sunday evening according to TfL journey planner. I checked it last Sunday night, and it is correct - from the time the train was in the tube platform at Euston to the time the doors opened at Oxford Circus was indeed near spot-on 6 minutes. But anyone thinking they could get from the foyer at Euston to the pavement at Oxford Circus in 6 minutes would be seriously deluded. It doesn't seem to make any allowance for getting to and from the platforms, or for how long you might need to wait for a train if you just missed one.

    So, 16 minutes for Euston to Paddington via Oxford Circus does seem about right, provided that you are lucky enough to have a train arrive just as you get to the platforms. In reality, if you have to wait for trains at Euston and Oxford Circus, if you are unlucky on a Sunday evening you may spend almost as long waiting as you do travelling, and of course you also need to add-on time to get to and from the platforms.

    For anyone with an advance ticket needing to catch a particular train, while they may be lucky and make Euston to Paddington via Oxford Circus in 16 minutes (plus 10 minutes transfer time at each end, 36 minutes total), I certainly wouldn't bet my advance fare on it.
     
  24. Belperpete

    Belperpete Member

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    I have walked it in about this time (I may have called in briefly at Saintsbury or Tesco on the way), but it is not a pleasant walk, either in the wet or when hot, with all the traffic dust. It is one of those annoying walks when you think you are almost there, but the last bit takes longer than you expect.
     
  25. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    43 minutes from Euston to Paddington via the Underground should be achievable, even on a Sunday evening.
     
  26. VT 390

    VT 390 Member

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    When I travelled from Euston to Paddington a couple of months ago on a Wednesday evening it did not take as long as I thought it would on the Underground as I stepped on to the main line platforms at Euston at about 19:25 (after being delayed travelling from Glasgow) and was in the main waiting area at Paddington at about 19:55 so about 30 minutes from Euston main line platforms to the main line platforms at Paddington and the route I took was Victoria line to Kings Cross St Pancras and then Circle/Hammersmith & City to Paddington.
     
  27. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    Would probably have been quicker to walk to Euston Square rather than doubling back vis Kings Cross St Pancras.
     
  28. VT 390

    VT 390 Member

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    Yes it would of and I did consider that option but as I had plenty of time for my connection at Paddington and was not 100% sure which way to walk to Euston Square (I know Euston and Kings Cross tube stations really well) I decided to go the way I did.
     

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