My arguments against Delay Repay

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by anme, 28 Aug 2019.

  1. anme

    anme Established Member

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  3. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    The only problem with that statement is that it's not true.

    Rail subsidies have been going down, rather than up since privatisation.
     
  4. anme

    anme Established Member

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    What on earth are you talking about? Delay repay compensation comes from higher fares (than they would be without delay repay) and/or higher subsidies (than without delay repay). It does not come from a magic money tree. It comes out of my pocket.
     
  5. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    The fact that subsidies have been decreasing steadily (though non-monotonically) since privatisation.
    The contribution of delay repay to fare increases is almost non-quantifiable.
     
  6. anme

    anme Established Member

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    I have no idea why you are raising this point on this thread. I also don't believe it is true but please do not debate it here.

    The money for delay repay has to come from somewhere. That somewhere is my pocket. Please can you at least thank me.
     
  7. causton

    causton Established Member

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    You are grossly overestimating the amount of money that is paid out through delay repay in the grand scheme of things. Nobody is thanking you.
     
  8. anme

    anme Established Member

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    But you're still happy to take my money, right?

    I'm not sure what people are arguing against here. The thread title asks where the money for delay repay comes from. I answered. Nobody has disputed that I am right. Maybe they just don't like the truth.
     
  9. causton

    causton Established Member

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    I am not personally taking your money.

    I am not sure what your argument is to be honest.

    Can you tell me how much money you are paying personally towards delay repay?
     
  10. anme

    anme Established Member

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    Do you not claim delay repay? If you don't, good on you.

    I don't have an argument. I stated a few facts. The delay repay compensation that some people claim comes from higher fares and/or higher subsidies. I pay some tax and I buy some tickets. Therefore I am paying some other people's delay repay compensation. You probably are too.

    Do you, or anyone else, disagree with any of those statements? If so, please explain why.

    Yes I can.
     
  11. Dr Hoo

    Dr Hoo Established Member

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    I am no not normally one given to speculation but having retired after 40 years in the rail industry over five years ago now (before Delay Repay really took off) I have not had access to current industry business models.

    My own assumption is that quite a few passengers who have claimed Delay Repay when they have been entitled to it have remained loyal customers whereas previously some would have given up on rail. Thus people are to some extent at least paying for their own refunds (rather than relying on others).

    My comparison would be with a supermarket cafe. If you have a complaint at Tesco, such as meal order wrongly fulfilled, you get an immediate no quibble refund. I am happy to go back to Tesco as and when it is convenient. On the other hand some cafes can provide a poor service and minimal apology or redress. I make a point of never going back.
     
  12. 35B

    35B Member

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    If a business pays compensation for poor service, that is a cost to the business which can readily be measured. If a customer stops purchasing from that business, or is deterred from buying in the first place, that is also a cost, but one that is much harder to measure.

    You appear to be assuming that the only impact of Delay Repay is in the cost of what train operators pay. You therefore ignore the other side of the ledger, and the gains that companies make from retaining customers who’d otherwise leave, or not even travel.

    I always claim Delay Repay if eligible, because it is my entitlement under the contract I’ve entered into. There’s no question of fault, and I don’t care as a customer whether it is due to the operator, another operator, Network Rail, or a rogue pheasant. But it does make me more likely to make discretionary journeys, and does give irregular travellers greater confidence that they will be treated fairly.

    So I’d ask a different question - what would it cost the railway in lost revenue not to pay Delay Repay?
     
  13. farleigh

    farleigh Member

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    Very thoughtful post that 35B

    I had not considered that angle
     
  14. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    That's a very good point! If I am making a decision between LNER and HT/GC then this is one aspect (out of many others; I've posted in another thread about this recently) which I will consider...
    By choosing not to provide Delay Repay, and even quibble with me over a one hour delay under their own much poorer scheme, Grand Central have lost my custom.

    While in my case GC aren't bothered about losing my custom (their trains are busy anyway, without adding any more customers) but other operators might value my custom. Multiply this experience by a lot of other people and there could be a lot of lost custom. It is impossible to quantify this.
     
  15. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    As a semi regular user of Southeastern I can categorically state that introducing delay repay had absolutely no effect on the fares that I pay to make journeys.
     
  16. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    Ultimately delay repay comes from the shareholders of the rail company as they make a lower profit as a result of paying out.

    Does anyone really think fares would be reduced if delay repay was scrapped?
     
  17. anme

    anme Established Member

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    I am really amazed that people don't understand where delay repay money comes from! There is no magic money tree. It comes from your fares and your taxes. And, specifically, mine.
     
  18. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Repeating the same thing doesn't make you right; @35B made some excellent points above. Do you have any comment on that?
     
  19. anme

    anme Established Member

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    I find it very hard to believe that delay repay makes a net positive contribution to railway company accounts. I have never heard of anyone specifically choosing the travel by train because there is a chance they can claim delay repay. Most people who travel will do so for other reasons! Consider for example commuters!

    If you have any evidence that delay repay is really a moneyspinner for the ToCs, please share it!
     
  20. anme

    anme Established Member

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    That seemed to be such a bizarre post that I didn't want to waste everyone's time by commenting on it, but I have now done so.
     
  21. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    It is a fact that many people will choose to use products or services of companies that provide appropriate compensation when things go wrong. I will use Premier Inn over Travelodge, LNER over GC, all for this reason. You may not choose to do this, but you cannot deny the fact that many other people do.
     
  22. anme

    anme Established Member

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    Do you have any evidence that a substantial number of people do?

    Delay repay and similar compensation costs a significant amount of money. I know season ticket holders who get back a substantial amount of money every year from rail operators. That money has to come from somewhere. There is no magic money tree - that money comes from you and me.

    You might argue that such compensation is right and just. Personally I would prefer that we got rid of it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 29 Aug 2019
  23. Llanigraham

    Llanigraham On Moderation

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    Do you have any evidence that Yorkie is incorrect?

    You say that it costs a significant amount of money, so please provide your evidence of that.

    Have you taken into account the payments back to the ToCs from Network Rail where they are at fault?
     
  24. maniacmartin

    maniacmartin Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Even if Delay Repay does cost the railway money overall, it doesn't mean it should be scrapped. If a company doesn't deliver the expected service that a customer has paid for, then there should be some level of refund/compensation etc as a matter of principle. Of course it's going to cost the company money - that's part of the point! It provides an incentive to deliver a good service.

    Also, like yorkie, and 35B, I also avoid using companies again if they have given me the runaround in the past, and I know of other people who do the same.
     
  25. 35B

    35B Member

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    I have anecdotal evidence of the value of delay repay, but not numbers. But I notice you seem unable to comprehend the concept of opportunity cost and the impact this has.
     
  26. Tetchytyke

    Tetchytyke Established Member

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    Delay Repay comes from the much more generous delay compensation Network Rail pay to the TOCs. Compensation that TOCs make a net profit from.

    Are you abolishing that too, or isit just the little people who have to go swivel?
     
  27. anme

    anme Established Member

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    This belongs in the other thread, where we are discussing exactly where delay repay comes from. Mods, please can you move it there?

    Where do you think "the much more generous delay compensation Network Rail pay to the TOCs" comes from?
     
  28. Djgr

    Djgr Member

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    I would defend to the death the rights of consumers to obtain compensation when they haven't received the service for which they have paid,

    whether this be for dodgy new homes, a box of cornflakes or a rail journey.

    It is a fundamental right of consumers that protects us from exploitation from business.
     
  29. robbeech

    robbeech Established Member

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    @anme
    I assume you don’t use the railway, or you don’t make many journeys, or at the very least you don’t make journeys where delay repay would make a significant impact to you. You’re aware that a small percentage of money paid in by the tax payer goes towards the railways and you are horrified by this, why should you pay a penny towards the railway? You pay for a ticket when you use it.
    I also assume you don’t use the fire service very often, do you ask for a reduction in your council tax bill to reflect this?

    I think people here do see the point you are trying to make but it comes across as if it’s only you that suffers and has ever suffered. As if you’re the only one that contributes, and delay repay specifically comes out of your pocket only.
     

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