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My idea for a Liverpool - Edinburgh direct service. Will it happen?

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sonic2009

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* Note to Mods : Should this be moved to NR General?

Skinny Dave personally I think that when the next TPE franchise is due, a service for Liverpool may be added, but in my own eyes, people from Edinburgh have a good connecting service from Wigan or Preston for Liverpool Lime Street.
 

SkinnyDave

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* Note to Mods : Should this be moved to NR General?

Skinny Dave personally I think that when the next TPE franchise is due, a service for Liverpool may be added, but in my own eyes, people from Edinburgh have a good connecting service from Wigan or Preston for Liverpool Lime Street.

Thanks for reply I was swithering to put it here or in NR but put it here under routing :|
I was reading the RUS for the WCML and they think demand will grow for this route but where do they get forecasts for that
 

ATW Alex 101

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Will this route happen and if so who would be given the service?

This route if anything would be given by TransPennine Express. I doubt XC would operate this route because they pulled out of Liverpool years ago and I doubt that many would fill a voyager from end to end.

The service itself could follow the route: Liverpool>StHelens>Wigan>Preston>Haymarket>Edinburgh.
You could also have daily services to Glasgow

A good calling pattern could be:

Liverpool Lime street
Edge hill
Prescot
St Helens central
Wigan North Western
Preston
Lancaster
Oxenholme
Penrith
Carlisle
Lockerbie
Haymarket
Edinburgh Waverly

The service could also run as a coupled unit then split at Preston and the other half go to:

Kirkham
Poulton-le-Fylde
Blackpool North

As a competition with Northern Rail

Or even the Windemere branch if the demand is high enough.

The route would be popular from places like:
Liverpool>St Helens, Wigan, Preston.
Preston>Stations to Edinburgh/Glasgow

With the Class 350/4 Desiro units expected, this would leave some 185's used on the existing Manchester-Scotland diagrams. Thus these 185's would be ideal for such a service.
 

MidnightFlyer

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So it'd be popular with routes already provided for with 3 or so trains per hour - what's the point of a through service then if it chiefly serves two separate flows already covered? Hell of a business case there! ;) 350 / 3s are expected, not 4s AFAIK, and the 185 released are already planned to go on strengthening the Manchester-York core.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hang on - diesel 185 units 'ideal' for a service entirely under (new) electrification?!
 

ATW Alex 101

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Hang on - diesel 185 units 'ideal' for a service entirely under (new) electrification?!

You have got a point and did take this into mind, but if TPE have existing units the 185's are fine. Also, they use Voyager on routes which are fully electrified (Birmingham-Scotland)
 

ainsworth74

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They doesn't really mean we should be looking to expand the number of routes where we have units running entirely under the wires (and besides there is some vague hope that come 2016 this might be remedied)!

Further all the 185s are accounted for once the wires go up either strengthening existing services or running a new Liverpool - Newcastle service so you're waiting out until the TPE wires go up for any more to become available.
 

yorkie

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* Note to Mods : Should this be moved to NR General?
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cle

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There was talk of this once wiring and 350s are in hand.

It was to be a Liverpool 4 car joining a Manchester 4 car at Wigan or Preston and preceding north.

If these split at Carlisle or Carstairs, then it could solve the issue of neither Scottish city being served hourly. 4 cars could go to Glasgow, 4 to Edinburgh. Some people might need to shuffle to the front or back set at Wigan/Preston.

So both Liverpool and Manchester would have hourly trains to both Glasgow and Edinburgh, with 8 car trains through the core Preston - at least Carlisle core.

A join and then a split would mean reliability would need to be s...-hot though.
 

rail-britain

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personally I think that when the next TPE franchise is due
There is nothing in the next franchise for such a service, as there are other changes taking place between Scotland and Preston / Manchester (revised hourly) which don't really make this possible

InterCity Cross Country used to run a Glasgow / Edinburgh - Manchester / Liverpool evening service, but it was simply a positioning move
An alternative would be :
Northbound AM Liverpool - Glasgow (instead of 07:00 from Manchester Airport)
Southbound PM Glasgow - Liverpool (instead of 20:47 into Manchester Airport)
The opposite doesn't look to be possible
 
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tbtc

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I expect it'll happen one day (after electrification of the line from Liverpool to Wigan and potential franchise remapping) - Liverpool to Glasgow is probably more of a market than Liverpool to Edinburgh though.

By the end of the decade the northern half of the WCML may look a bit different in terms of service pattern - hopefully someone will have tapped into the market from Scotland to Blackpool too by that stage.
 

northwichcat

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Skinny Dave personally I think that when the next TPE franchise is due, a service for Liverpool may be added, but in my own eyes, people from Edinburgh have a good connecting service from Wigan or Preston for Liverpool Lime Street.

On Monday I saw full and standing Manchester Airport to Edinburgh off-peak services (and not just south of Bolton.) How in your own eyes is changing on to that service adequate when there is insufficient capacity? (Note a 4 car 350/4 won't provide that much more extra seats over a 3 car 185 due to the shorter carriage lengths on the 350s.)
 

rail-britain

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Liverpool to Glasgow is probably more of a market than Liverpool to Edinburgh though
I think it would be actually very close as Edinburgh serves as an interchange for Aberdeen and Inverness routes, hence why there is a higher flow on the Edinburgh service now compared to previously
However for end-to-end passenger numbers I think this would be very low and wouldn't make much difference ironically; Edinburgh passengers would therefore still have to make at least one change of train

Operationally this may have a future though
The EMU will be operating between Scotland and Manchester
Once EMU are operating between Newcastle and Liverpool (resinstated route as proposed), then swapping EMU between these for maintenance could then be achieved with greater ease by the common use of Liverpool as a destination, and it may be something they consider
This may even result in two trains per day, in each direction
However, 2018, that's even further away...
 

northwichcat

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I expect it'll happen one day (after electrification of the line from Liverpool to Wigan and potential franchise remapping) - Liverpool to Glasgow is probably more of a market than Liverpool to Edinburgh though.

Even if that is the case would it make sense to run Liverpool/Manchester Airport to Glasgow 8 car workings and leave 4 car workings for Manchester Airport to Edinburgh, considering the Glasgow-London route may finish up as mainly 11 car Pendolinos and in comparison Edinburgh will only be served by short trains from the WCML?
 

SkinnyDave

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Baby Pendos not be better used for these routes regardless of who gets these routes
 

tbtc

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I think it would be actually very close as Edinburgh serves as an interchange for Aberdeen and Inverness routes, hence why there is a higher flow on the Edinburgh service now compared to previously
However for end-to-end passenger numbers I think this would be very low and wouldn't make much difference ironically; Edinburgh passengers would therefore still have to make at least one change of train

Operationally this may have a future though
The EMU will be operating between Scotland and Manchester
Once EMU are operating between Newcastle and Liverpool (resinstated route as proposed), then swapping EMU between these for maintenance could then be achieved with greater ease by the common use of Liverpool as a destination, and it may be something they consider
This may even result in two trains per day, in each direction
However, 2018, that's even further away...

Unless you bring Carstairs back as a proper interchange there will always be the problem of not being able to serve Glasgow and Edinburgh on the same WCML service (and the time penalty is such that it's better to wait at Preston for the next northbound train than it is to board a Glasgow service and change there for Edinburgh).

Even if that is the case would it make sense to run Liverpool/Manchester Airport to Glasgow 8 car workings and leave 4 car workings for Manchester Airport to Edinburgh, considering the Glasgow-London route may finish up as mainly 11 car Pendolinos and in comparison Edinburgh will only be served by short trains from the WCML?

Edinburgh does have an hourly XC service to Birmingham though, as well as plenty of London trains of their own
 

northwichcat

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Edinburgh does have an hourly XC service to Birmingham though, as well as plenty of London trains of their own

Which wouldn't be of interest to someone boarding a packed Edinburgh train at Preston/Lancaster/Carlisle.
 

tbtc

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Which wouldn't be of interest to someone boarding a packed Edinburgh train at Preston/Lancaster/Carlisle.

Bear in mind that any Voyager replacement would mean Edinburgh getting longer trains on it's WCML Birmingham via Preston/Lancaster/Carlisle services too (depending on the winner of the WCML franchise)
 

northwichcat

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Bear in mind that any Voyager replacement would mean Edinburgh getting longer trains on it's WCML Birmingham via Preston/Lancaster/Carlisle services too (depending on the winner of the WCML franchise)

I don't see how that would automatically be the case. I understand that the next West Coast operator can choose to replace Voyagers after a certain date but that doesn't automatically mean additional carriages. Also, given that Glasgow-London were all 9 car Pendolinos not that long ago and could be set to become all 11 car Pendolinos, even if new 7 car units were ordered for Birmingham-Edinburgh then it would still mean a lot more carriages head north from Preston for Glasgow compared to Edinburgh.
 

tbtc

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I don't see how that would automatically be the case. I understand that the next West Coast operator can choose to replace Voyagers after a certain date but that doesn't automatically mean additional carriages. Also, given that Glasgow-London were all 9 car Pendolinos not that long ago and could be set to become all 11 car Pendolinos, even if new 7 car units were ordered for Birmingham-Edinburgh then it would still mean a lot more carriages head north from Preston for Glasgow compared to Edinburgh.

WCML services (north of Preston) to Glasgow are always going to have more coaches/ more frequently than WCML services (north of Preston) to Edinburgh as the Glasgow trips essentially include all Birmingham - Glasgow passengers and all London - Glasgow passengers.

Birmingham to Edinburgh is more frequent up the ECML and London to Edinburgh passengers are going to use the ECML service via York. You can do London/Birmingham to Glasgow via York, but that's only going to be for a tiny number of passengers (as will the token number of London - Edinburgh passengers on cheap Virgin tickets via Birmingham).

So I don't think there's any problem in there being more coaches up the WCML to Glasgow than there are to Edinburgh (as a significant number of London/Birmingham to Edinburgh passengers will be using ECML services).
 

calc7

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Couldn't first scotrail take it on?

I'm sorry, but this is a terrible idea. They operate no regional services south of Carlisle at the moment, why would you want to create all that operational mess with running a service to Liverpool?
 

northwichcat

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So I don't think there's any problem in there being more coaches up the WCML to Glasgow than there are to Edinburgh (as a significant number of London/Birmingham to Edinburgh passengers will be using ECML services).

That's not what I'm getting at. I'm getting at your suggestion of Glasgow trains conveying Liverpool portions adding further capacity for Glasgow and leaving single trains for Edinburgh.
 

SkinnyDave

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Digressing slightly but isn't it quicker from Edinburgh to Birmingham via the WCML?
 

MidnightFlyer

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Digressing slightly but isn't it quicker from Edinburgh to Birmingham via the WCML?

By about an hour or so, yes. Take for example XC's 1605 to Bristol Temple Meads via Leeds. It takes 5 hours and 2 minutes to New, arriving at 2107. Virgin's 1652 service via Preston takes 4 hours and 3 minutes, arriving at New St at 2055.
 

calc7

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The Virgin one will also have a horrific amount of padding due to its journey ending at BHM so it is likely that it will come in under the 4hr mark.
 

Nym

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I think I went through my potential plan for this a while back, involving the use of a fleet of baby pendos...

Formed of:
Driving Trailer Kitchen First - Motor First Shop - Motor Second - Motor Second - Motor Second - Driving Trailer Second Bike Space
Perminantly extended couplers, capable of portion working and SDO throughout (rearmost carriage of rearmost train would not open on "11 car" platforms. It would be possible to have less 1st provision and work on 5 car units, but for fleet comminality I'd be using these on Chester runs from Euston, eliminating the use of Voyagers.

Was something like.. (This is post HS2 to Birmingham, but nothing to say it couldn't be implemented now)

The Baby Pendo diagrams would look like this:

Euston - Chester 1tph (Current Slot)
Manchester Airport - Edinburgh 1tp2h
Euston - Edinburgh 1t2ph (Portion working with Chester Diagram to Crewe and Manchester diagram from Preston/Wigan)
Manchester Airport - Glasgow Central 1tp2h (Opposite hours to Edinburgh service)
Euston - Blackpool North 1tp2h (Portion working with Chester Diagram to Crewe and running opposite the Edinburgh Slot)
Liverpool Lime Street - Glasgow Central 1tp2h (Combines with GLC service off Manchester Airport at Preston)

Notes:
Edinbrugh and Blackpool North services off Euston will call Crewe, Warrington BQ and Wigan NW with the Euston - Glasgow Central services making their first call at Preston.
No additional paths are used from Euston or in the Trent Valley.
The 1tp2h is not needed to be religiously followed, simply that each hour will have the pattern of either:
Euston - Chester & Blackpool North (Split at Crewe)
Manchester Airport & Liverpool Lime Street - Glasgow Central (Combine at Preston)
or
Euston - Chester & Edinburgh (Split at Crewe)
Manchester Airport - Edinburgh (Combine with service off Euston at Preston)

Services from Birmingham are a bit of a wildcard as these can sometimes require longer units running to Scotland, hence why I'd be keeping these currently seperate, but they can be run by baby pendos or 390/0 units. If these services had demand for two destinations the only places I can think to run them to would be either an additional portion to Liverpool Lime Street from Edinburgh to give Liverpool Lime St 1tph to Scotland, or splitting off to cross the Pennines, although I do beleive that Glasgow has enough demand to fill 9 carriages to Birmingham.

Birmingham - Edinburgh / Glasgow 1tph (As currently)

The fleet requirements for this can be worked out by treating each diagram seperately, so...

Euston - Chester - ((Holyhead/Llandudno)) (1tph) 8 units.
Manchester Airport - Glasgow and Edinbrugh (1tp2hpr) 9 units.
Liverpool Lime Street - Glasgow (1tp2h) 5 units.
Euston - Edinburgh (1tp2h) 6 units.
Euston - Blackpool N (1tp2h) 4 units.
Birmingham NS - Scotland 10 units.

So 42 units there, but if we take into account HS2 and let the 390/0 units be used on Burm - Scotland runs, taking into account maintenance spares you're looking at needing 38 units for the NW, speeding up Glasgow services from the WCML and putting direct Edinburgh services back on from Euston (running in opposite hours to Glasgow off Brum, as they'd need to be flighted behind each other in the timetable so every hour off Preston would be 2tph to Glasgow C and 1tph to Edinbrugh (1 from Manchester / Liverpool / Euston, 1 from Birmingham and 1 from Euston) with 1 Edinbrugh and 1 Glasgow flighted together and calling at intermediate stations, with the Glasgow off Euston running insane fast calling only at Preston and Carlisle, all day.

That would move the WC timetable to looking something like...

Off Euston:
xx:00 Manchester Piccadilly (390/1)
xx:03 Birmingham New Street (390/1)
xx:07 Liverpool Lime Street (390/1)
xx:10 Chester and Edinburgh or Chester and Blackpool North (2x390/2) (Calling Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston)
xx:20 Manchester Piccadilly (390/1)
xx:23 Birmingham New Street (390/1)
xx:30 Glasgow Central (Calling Preston and Carlisle only) (390/1)
xx:33 Liverpool Lime Street (Peak Only) (390/1)
xx:40 Manchester Piccadilly (390/1)
xx:43 Birmingham New Street (390/1)
xx:57 Glasgow Central (Peak Only, more stations called at) (390/1)

Off Birmingham New Street
xx:20 Glasgow Central / Edinburgh (390/0 or 390/2)

Off Manchester Airport
xx:00 Glasgow Central / Edinbrugh
 
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