My idea for Tunnels Belfast - Liverpool and Hull-> Rotterdam

[matacaster]

According to Daily Mail today, Chinese are proposing to build

• 84-mile Taiwan Strait Tunnel would link Pingtan, Fuzhou and Hsinchu, Taiwan
• Trains could go through the undersea tunnel in 32 minutes, according to plan

So how about UK and partners building a northern channel tunnel (Hull to Rotterdam or Zeebrugge?)and Irish Sea tunnel would transform the economics of the north, Ireland and Scotland. Yes, they would cost a lot of money, but would likely be more beneficial that wasting a wodge on HS2 which is unlikely to be anything other than a commuter route to London. The whole country's economy is based around London at the moment and needs to change. One reason that Londoners and South east voted to remain EU is that its as easy to get to Paris than Leeds. Try going from Leeds or Manchester to Paris by train! It would also mean that people and lorries for the north and midlands didn't need to go via the bottlenecks of Dover and Folkstone.

Discuss!

 

[The Planner]

What problem is it trying to solve? All you would do is fill it with container trains that already go by sea to Felixstowe. Why would it be more beneficial than HS2? People wanting to go from Holland and Belgium to the midlands and north would just fly.

 

[Ploughman]

Seabed depth may be an issue.
160m Scotland - N Ireland
Holyhead - 120m
Cork - 120m

 

[Ianno87]

According to Daily Mail today, Chinese are proposing to build

• 84-mile Taiwan Strait Tunnel would link Pingtan, Fuzhou and Hsinchu, Taiwan
• Trains could go through the undersea tunnel in 32 minutes, according to plan

So how about UK and partners building a northern channel tunnel (Hull to Rotterdam or Zeebrugge?)and Irish Sea tunnel would transform the economics of the north, Ireland and Scotland. Yes, they would cost a lot of money, but would likely be more beneficial that wasting a wodge on HS2 which is unlikely to be anything other than a commuter route to London. The whole country's economy is based around London at the moment and needs to change. One reason that Londoners and South east voted to remain EU is that its as easy to get to Paris than Leeds. Try going from Leeds or Manchester to Paris by train! It would also mean that people and lorries for the north and midlands didn't need to go via the bottlenecks of Dover and Folkstone.

Discuss!

Fact check: Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool all voted Remain.

 

[Flying Snail]

Seabed depth may be an issue.
160m Scotland - N Ireland

It's more than that, Beaufort's Dyke is up to 300m deep and has been used as a dumping ground for munitions and nuclear waste.

 

[HSTEd]

It's more than that, Beaufort's Dyke is up to 300m deep and has been used as a dumping ground for munitions and nuclear waste.

That depends on the route you select.

 

[AndrewE]

If we can't afford electrification (let alone a new tunnel) between Manchester and Leeds then this is pointless froth. Anyway, if we're not in Europe why should "our partners" help fund infrastructure that might benefit the UK? Eire to France is an already-expanding sea link, if not yet a corridor!

 

[Flying Snail]

That depends on the route you select.

It's all pie in the sky (or should that be under the sea) nonsense anyway, you could route it via Brisbane for all the difference it would make to the viability of the scheme.

 

[HSTEd]

It's all pie in the sky (or should that be under the sea) nonsense anyway, you could route it via Brisbane for all the difference it would make to the viability of the scheme.

An Irish Sea fixed crossing is pretty far from non-viable, and indeed is probably essential to the continued economic development of Northern Ireland and South Western Scotland, and indeed North Western England.

But in the current culture of placing extremely short accounting lives on essentially eternal infrastructure, it will never pass the simplistic BCR calculations that we now use.
Which is one of the reasons why economic conditions in the UK continue to deteriorate compared to historical norms.

 

[Steamysandy]

With reference to the Far North Line,why not go the whole hog and build tunnels from Thurso to Bergen via Kirkwall and Orkney.
That would boost its usage no end!
But it's equally practical !

 

[quantinghome]

Can't help but notice that the Chinese are proposing this in addition to, not instead of, a land-based high speed rail network. When we have the same length of high speed rail per head of population, perhaps we could start thinking about something similar. Anyway, the Taiwan crossing looks to be a non-starter according to the Wikipedia entry:

Currently, the project is not considered viable due lack of interest from the Taiwanese, staggering costs and unsolved technical problems. At nearly 150 km, the proposed tunnel would be nearly three times longer than the Channel Tunnel. In addition, Taiwan is concerned about the tunnel's potential use by China in aggressive military actions. Nonetheless, in July 2013, the Chinese State Council approved plans for the project, although this "approval" is practically meaningless. Construction would still require approval by the Taiwanese government, which is highly unlikely.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Norn Iron- Stranraer
Dublin-Holyhead
East Anglia-Belgium/Holland

Would all require far less tunnel. However, if we're in fansasy land, how about Thurso-Okneys-Shetlands-Faeroes-Iceland?

 

[eastdyke]

LOL
One full super container ship, say 19,000 teu, is around 135 optimally/fully loaded 1km trains.
Felixstowe (port) has a future!

 

[berneyarms]

No one has mentioned it, but aside from the already mentioned valid reasons why this won’t happen, gauge would surely be another nail in the coffin given that the railways on the island of Ireland are a completely different gauge to that of Great Britain.

 

[Ianno87]

No one has mentioned it, but aside from the already mentioned valid reasons why this won’t happen, gauge would surely be another nail in the coffin given that the railways on the island of Ireland are a completely different gauge to that of Great Britain.

Could just be a standalone terminal in Dublin.

Not that that would make the whole idea even the slightest bit remotely more feasible.

 

[70014IronDuke]

No one has mentioned it, but aside from the already mentioned valid reasons why this won’t happen, gauge would surely be another nail in the coffin given that the railways on the island of Ireland are a completely different gauge to that of Great Britain.

I have a way to solve the gauge issue. I can't reveal everything here, because I have to refine my idea of the century and patent it, but I can give a clue.

First, apologies BerneyArms, but you sir, are not truly correct.
The gauges are not “completely” different. They are only a 'bit' different. It's only 6.5 inches difference we have to deal with.

And here is the ingenious, scientific-based solution I have for this seemingly INTRACTABLE problem.

I'm calling it The IronDuke ThermoElastic Dynamic Regauging System – patent applied for.

What you do is, you build special new bogies for the stock designed to run between Scotland/England and Ireland.
These bogies are designed with wheelsets having a gauge of 4'-11 1/4”.
Yes. It sounds crazy – but wait! Now for the real genius to emerge!!

Let's say these units are built at on the UK mainland. Obviously, they will need to run on 4'-81/2'' track out of the works.

The secret is - I shouldn't tell, but shhh - just don't tell the Chinese - these wheelsets will have a special hyper-cooling system designed to REDUCE the gauge through thermal contraction of the axle to – you've guessed it! Yes, 4'-81/2'' !!

What's more, the wheelsets will also have – yes, you might have already seen the light at the end of the tunnel (as it were) – HEATERS, so that, when they run on the Irish gauge, the axle expands, and the wheels are 5'-3'' apart.

See! It's so simple, but you need to be an off-the-wall, innovative boffin to come to this.

But wait! I hear you say. Surely there is still a difficulty I have not thought about with all this? After all, you will still have to change gauges at some point! And even if you have some snazzy dual-gauge track system in Ireland, that will take time and infrastructure investment which will render all this innovative genius to naught.

WELL... I shouldn't tell, but, ok, I will – because my designs are so far ahead of the pack that nobody will be able to catch up. Not even the wily Chinese, even if they do monitor this forum for its ideas.

The secret is that the Anglo-Irish Tunnel will have a continuously expanding gauge! Yes, unbelievable as it sounds! But wait! It will be designed that so that the gauge expands at a tiny, tiny rate, ie on the UK side the gauge starts at 4-81/2'' and ever so slowly you reduce the hyper-cooling off the axels so that mid-way under the Irish Sea the gauge is 4'-11 ¼, then you ever so slowly apply the heaters so the gauge creeps up so that, upon entry to Ireland, it's Irish standard 5'-3'' !

There – you have it! No need to stop and change wheelsets or any of that nonsense – it's all totally dynamic and continuous!

Obviously, this would all be computer controlled, so if the train is slowed, or held by signals in the tunnel, the dynamic thermal system responds accordingly, and keeps the wheelset gauges appropriate to the track gauge at that point. Yes, I'd thought of that - I'm not stupid, you know!

 

[Steamysandy]

Norn Iron- Stranraer
Dublin-Holyhead
East Anglia-Belgium/Holland

Would all require far less tunnel. However, if we're in fansasy land, how about Thurso-Okneys-Shetlands-Faeroes-Iceland?

Add on s branch to Bergen and Lerwick becomes a railway junction!!!

 

[eastdyke]

I'm calling it The IronDuke ThermoElastic Dynamic Regauging System – patent applied for.

It's a long time since I've seen anything THAT ingenious on the forum.
Persons in white coats have been despatched looking for someone pretending to be a Britannia.

 

[HSTEd]

No one has mentioned it, but aside from the already mentioned valid reasons why this won’t happen, gauge would surely be another nail in the coffin given that the railways on the island of Ireland are a completely different gauge to that of Great Britain.

Talgo has kind of blown that problem to pieces, now we have gauge changers that dont even require the train to stop.

LOL
One full super container ship, say 19,000 teu, is around 135 optimally/fully loaded 1km trains.
Felixstowe (port) has a future!

Why are your trains so short?
1km trains are nothing in the parts of the world where railferight is close to competitive.

A ~12,000ft freight train that is typical in the US will load something like 1100 TEU these days.

 

[eastdyke]

Why are your trains so short?
1km trains are nothing in the parts of the world where railferight is close to competitive.
A ~12,000ft freight train that is typical in the US will load something like 1100 TEU these days.

Sadly we don't have a route across a Great Yorkshire desert, or a route anywhere that would take '2 up' wagons.
Everything would be 'all change' at the border. Now where have I heard that before?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

If you were going to bother with something like this, you'd arguably be best starting between Antwerp and Rotterdam on the east side of the water and come into somewhere like Harwich so that freight traffic could go all ways including via Ipswich / Bury / Peterborough or towards London. That said, sticking more trains onto the GEML is a remarkably unlikely and poor-quality choice. It wouldn't work unless we built an entirely new railway.

 

[Jonny]

For the Irish Sea, I would look to tunnel between Larne and Stranraer and then build over-land out to Belfast and straight to Carlisle, with the option of routing to London of either along the WCML/HS2 corridor or through the Tyne Valley and along the ECML corridor with another route (it is also the least topographically and geographically complicated route to Scotland)

 

[4-SUB 4732]

For the Irish Sea, I would look to tunnel between Larne and Stranraer and then build over-land out to Belfast and straight to Carlisle, with the option of routing to London of either along the WCML/HS2 corridor or through the Tyne Valley and along the ECML corridor with another route (it is also the least topographically and geographically complicated route to Scotland)

Bangor to Dumfries could have benefits such as being able to bypass Belfast towards Dublin (freight) and also then use an upgraded GSW towards Glasgow or indeed go south to Carlisle and thence Newcastle (Tyne Valley), Leeds (S&C) or the Midlands and London (WCML).

 

[HSTEd]

Obvious way to have an Irish Sea crossing would be to extend the M6 to Stranraer, along with a newbuild high speed line section between Stranraer and Carlisle, the existing line could be upgraded for Belfast-Glasgow commuter trains.

A combined bridge tunnel is probably the best option for that crossing - although if someone was to build an archimedes tunnel that would obviously be ideal.

 

[DanTrain]

One reason that Londoners and South east voted to remain EU is that its as easy to get to Paris than Leeds. Try going from Leeds or Manchester to Paris by train!

Leeds to Paris is one change, taking around 4.5-5 hours travelling time, which with 1.5h change in London is 6-6.5 hours. Now it's 4h20 from Leeds to Cardiff with one change, and 5h30 to Southampton. In other words, getting to the capital of France takes at most 2 hours longer than getting to the capital of Wales from Leeds, so I don't really get this point.

As for the tunnels, in cloud cuckoo land, they'd be excellent, where everyone got on really well and had infinite money. However, in post-Brexit UK, having a tunnel to Rotterdam strikes me as a huge waste of money. Ferries seem to be doing quite well enough, how about spending the money on upgrading the Felixtowe line and the A14 instead?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Leeds to Paris is one change, taking around 4.5-5 hours travelling time, which with 1.5h change in London is 6-6.5 hours. Now it's 4h20 from Leeds to Cardiff with one change, and 5h30 to Southampton. In other words, getting to the capital of France takes at most 2 hours longer than getting to the capital of Wales from Leeds, so I don't really get this point.

As for the tunnels, in cloud cuckoo land, they'd be excellent, where everyone got on really well and had infinite money. However, in post-Brexit UK, having a tunnel to Rotterdam strikes me as a huge waste of money. Ferries seem to be doing quite well enough, how about spending the money on upgrading the Felixtowe line and the A14 instead?

Just bloody fly. I live about 10 minutes from Ebbsfleet and even I fly to the likes of Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Cologne, Dresden and such. Far nicer flying than sitting on a peasant wagon.

 

[AndrewE]

Do I spot a wind-up?
Dresden maybe, but Amsterdam and Cologne? And you don't even have to travel south to London first!

 

[GrimShady]

The cost of such tunnels would be insane. As it stands the channel tunnel hasn't been the great success everyone thought it would, remember the financial state Eurotunnel was in?

Besides the North/Irish Sea is littered with Ro-Pax/Ro-Ro Merchant vessels which already do everything a tunnel would and in greater volume. I don't think people realise the shear amount of cargo that comes by sea on a daily basis.

 

[43096]

According to Daily Mail today, Chinese are proposing to build

• 84-mile Taiwan Strait Tunnel would link Pingtan, Fuzhou and Hsinchu, Taiwan
• Trains could go through the undersea tunnel in 32 minutes, according to plan

So how about UK and partners building a northern channel tunnel (Hull to Rotterdam or Zeebrugge?)and Irish Sea tunnel would transform the economics of the north, Ireland and Scotland. Yes, they would cost a lot of money, but would likely be more beneficial that wasting a wodge on HS2 which is unlikely to be anything other than a commuter route to London. The whole country's economy is based around London at the moment and needs to change. One reason that Londoners and South east voted to remain EU is that its as easy to get to Paris than Leeds. Try going from Leeds or Manchester to Paris by train! It would also mean that people and lorries for the north and midlands didn't need to go via the bottlenecks of Dover and Folkstone.

Discuss!

What’s the market for Leeds/Manchester to Paris by rail? Anyone doing that route will fly.

Given that the current Channel Tunnel is barely used by rail freight, why would this be any different?

Another fantasy plan that fails even the most basic reality check.

 

[Clip]

One reason that Londoners and South east voted to remain EU is that its as easy to get to Paris than Leeds.

Thats a pretty bonkers claim as im sure that Eurostar will still run even when we leave the EU.

And large swathes of the South East voted to Leave anyway - whether they wanted to go to Paris one time or not.