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My idea: MerciaRail - a new Inter-City service via the OWW?

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JackJones125

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Mercia Railreigniting the OWW railway with a greater Midlands focus.

Route: London Marylebone – Oxford Parkway – Worcester Shrub Hill – Stourbridge Junction – Dudley (if route reopened) – Wolverhampton – Shrewsbury – Wrexham General – Bidston (for Birkenhead/Liverpool).

Using redundant HST stock, the idea would be to create a new long distance Inter-City service whilst not intervening with current TOC boundaries. A similar role to how Grand Central and other open-access operators work, by not calling at drastically important stations such as Birmingham New Street alongside limited stops that wouldn’t affect the current flow of passengers on the mainline. (Marylebone-Oxford, Oxford-Worcester, Wolverhampton-Wrexham would be additional paths put in the current system and Stourbridge-Wolverhampton via Dudley would be alongside the Midland Metro planned tram/train trackbed). The aim would be to create an alternative link between major cities, whilst enabling connectivity that comes at a price of a slightly longer journey but easier access for those that live in the key areas called at. Mercia Rail would create a Midlands boost to London, Wolverhampton (Birmingham) and Liverpool, whilst also allowing key areas like Oxford, Worcester, Stourbridge, Wolverhampton, Shrewsbury and Wrexham to have greater connections to those.

Understandably the questions of ‘where will the stock come from’, prices/cost, journey times etc would arise. But this is more of an idea of the practicality of reintroducing a service like this, even if it was taken on by Cross-Country or Chiltern Railways (I guess) or even a new operator/Grand Central venture and whether a movement to pursue this idea can arise. I assume as a starting point the use of redundant HSTs would be a good start, before acquiring IETs or a similar 5-8car new multiple unit of some sort.

The operation of WSMR was an ambitious plan, times have changed and lessons have been learnt. :D
 
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Dr Hoo

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Welcome to the forum.

Interesting idea. Could you flesh out a bit more which lessons have been learnt from WSMR, e.g. that slow, indirect, infrequent services (even with comfy trains, low fares and super-friendly staff) are unfortunately doomed to lose money hand over fist?
 

swt_passenger

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Are you going to reverse in Oxford without calling, or build new infrastructure to avoid the reversal?

What about platform capacity at Marylebone? Also, if you run Marylebone to Oxford Parkway won’t that seriously affect Chiltern’s revenue?
 

47802

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Well if can get someone with enough money to start it up, get it past the Rail Regulator and make some money out of it then sure why not but I suspect it wont be happening.
 

twpsaesneg

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Stourbridge - Dudley - Wolverhampton? Would this mean reinstating the Dudley to Walsall line and reversing there?

I think choosing rolling stock is the least of your worries!
 

6Gman

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Mercia Railreigniting the OWW railway with a greater Midlands focus.
The aim would be to create an alternative link between major cities, whilst enabling connectivity that comes at a price of a slightly longer journey but easier access for those that live in the key areas called at. Mercia Rail would create a Midlands boost to London, Wolverhampton (Birmingham) and Liverpool, whilst also allowing key areas like Oxford, Worcester, Stourbridge, Wolverhampton, Shrewsbury and Wrexham to have greater connections to those.

London to Liverpool via Stourbridge Junction [and a change of train at ... Bidston :rolleyes: ] "a slightly longer journey"?
 

jimm

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Stourbridge - Dudley - Wolverhampton? Would this mean reinstating the Dudley to Walsall line and reversing there?

I think choosing rolling stock is the least of your worries!

You need to get to the West Midlands in the first place - and there are a few problems in that regard.

Marylebone is near enough at full capacity now - in order to accommodate recent GWR weekend diversions, the Chiltern service had to be thinned out.

On the Cotswold Line there are single-line sections still in place at either end and the route is already effectively at capacity for parts of the day now - no one in their right mind would be offering paths to anyone other than GWR or a future franchisee. There is also the likelihood of extra traffic to and from Long Marston if Hitachi's proposal to create a train testing facility there goes ahead.

The last thing that is needed is trying to squeeze more trains through the single-line sections without more partial or complete redoubling - and if that does ever happen, there are plenty of ideas for enhanced services to benefit the local area that would take priority over the original poster's fantasy.
 

ChiefPlanner

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A "crayonista" suggestion.......

First find an unserved market , find some spare route capacity and suitable rolling stock etc - then optimise. The rest will follow.

(or not)
 

Tobbes

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Yes, not going to happen for all of the reasons here - though the (un)real question is why you would start from Marylebone and not Paddington to do this - going to Oxford Parkway and then Oxford station and reverse (presumably - I don't see a direct East to North avoiding line at the moment in Oxford) via the Chiltern line does seem like the long way round.

WSMR is the real lesson, though, for the reasons outlined above.
 

bussnapperwm

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Stourbridge - Dudley - Wolverhampton? Would this mean reinstating the Dudley to Walsall line and reversing there?

I think choosing rolling stock is the least of your worries!

Build a chord to link Dudley to the Stour Valley Line to solve that problem
 

43096

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Another of those schemes you could make a small fortune out of. But only if you start with a very large fortune.
 

michael74

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Have you ever been to Bidston? Inter-city it is not!

If he wasn't dead Telly Savalas could do a promotional video for Bidston just like his one for Birmingham "Telly Savalas Looks At Birmingham"

Bidston, it's my kinda place.....
 

JackJones125

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- Taking into account what was originally stated for this proposal was that this aims to promote the prospect of this service being reintroduced, not as a 'MerciaRail aims to operate by 2030 with ORR consent' etc. -

Welcome to the forum.

Interesting idea. Could you flesh out a bit more which lessons have been learnt from WSMR, e.g. that slow, indirect, infrequent services (even with comfy trains, low fares and super-friendly staff) are unfortunately doomed to lose money hand over fist?

^WSMR was a fantastic service, beaten down by the 'big operators' and hindered by financial problems. This is why the initial thoughts of not necessarily being operated by a new open-access TOC spring to mind, especially if it was starting at Marylebone then Chiltern Railways could be a valuable asset to this prospect. My initial thoughts regarding the lessons learnt from WSMR, would be about journey times. Granted the Marylebone-Bidston route is a very long journey, but this is more so do to with the connectivity it enables as a through route rather than being pushed down random lines to avoid the competition like WSMR had to deal with - eg: Tame Bridge Parkway, via Coventry but not allowed to called there etc. Granted contradictions with operating Marylebone-Oxford (Chiltern), Oxford-Worcester (GWR), Worcester-Wolverhampton (WMR), Wolverhampton-Bidston (ATW) is considered, but this is why we initially suggested the prospect of an operator like Chiltern Railways taking this move on instead of a new open-access operator - all you have to do is look at ATW's proposals for Aberystwyth to Marylebone and consider similarly why? But this is the point of promoting considerations and ideas whether it could work.

Are you going to reverse in Oxford without calling, or build new infrastructure to avoid the reversal?

This isn't something we're promoting as to be performed in the next 5 years. Chords can be built, extensions can be made, lines can be doubled in the future. It's about fitting into these plans.

What about platform capacity at Marylebone? Also, if you run Marylebone to Oxford Parkway won’t that seriously affect Chiltern’s revenue?

Refer back to idea for Chiltern Railways to take this on as a new route, but yes this is true also true. You could counter this by saying how have First group managed to get paths for 'East Coast Trains' with the current situation on the ECML, prospective plans can be made with the right organisation and cooperation.

Stourbridge - Dudley - Wolverhampton? Would this mean reinstating the Dudley to Walsall line and reversing there?

I think choosing rolling stock is the least of your worries!

The reintroduction of the route via the Midland Metro could spring up anything in the pipeline, if the right consideration was made a call at Dudley/Dudley Port via a simple chord could be achieved. This is only a proposal for a prospective route, not a dream to happen in the next year remember.

London to Liverpool via Stourbridge Junction [and a change of train at ... Bidston :rolleyes: ] "a slightly longer journey"?

Journey times aren't the core issue here, it's about creating a new Midlands corridor. You could argue the same for the GCML, but look how that gets promoted on this forum. More so what about the connectivity this brings to those areas? We're not aiming to compete with Virgin Trains or London Northwestern Railway by getting to Liverpool-ish quickest. It's about promoting travel to areas and allowing certain areas to have more direct routes. Oxford-Wolverhampton is doable via CrossCountry, but people who live in Worcester don't have great access to Wolverhampton. Oxford-Worcester provides greater capacity if the Cotswold Line was to be redoubled. Using Bidston as an interchange for Birkenhead/Liverpool or the creation of a new terminus has the prospect of creating another Liverpool terminus (just after Bidston/or revamp Bidston with bay platforms) that could eventually alleviate stress from Lime Street.

You need to get to the West Midlands in the first place - and there are a few problems in that regard.

Marylebone is near enough at full capacity now - in order to accommodate recent GWR weekend diversions, the Chiltern service had to be thinned out.

On the Cotswold Line there are single-line sections still in place at either end and the route is already effectively at capacity for parts of the day now - no one in their right mind would be offering paths to anyone other than GWR or a future franchisee. There is also the likelihood of extra traffic to and from Long Marston if Hitachi's proposal to create a train testing facility there goes ahead.

The last thing that is needed is trying to squeeze more trains through the single-line sections without more partial or complete redoubling - and if that does ever happen, there are plenty of ideas for enhanced services to benefit the local area that would take priority over the original poster's fantasy.

I strongly doubt, if it was to happen, this would happen in the next 5-10 years. It's not that difficult to assume this, plans are plans not 'I want this to happen now, make it happen'. Everything has a design and planning stage remember.

Have you ever been to Bidston? Inter-city it is not!

Bidston (for Birkenhead/Liverpool remember...) new design, new terminus, where's Woodside when you need it???

Another of those schemes you could make a small fortune out of. But only if you start with a very large fortune.

That's the plan. Anyone got Grand Central or Chiltern Railways' phone number please? :smile:

^Taking into account what was stated about this being an idea to promote the possibility of a service like this being reintroduced, doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be advocated to happen in the next 3 years. Similarly to how members on this forum murder any prospect of the GCML or whatever being reopened, this isn't about a random person's idea occuring not taking into account money etc, this is to publicise the prospect.

Just to re-assure, this isn't one of those ideas that MerciaRail is to be a new operator (it would be great if it could...) and to make this happen in the next 5 years. I feel sometimes these ideas get the same abuse any GCML reopening forum page gets, but remember this is about publicising the prospect of this route being reintroduced at a minimal scale to provide another Inter-City route that isn't of the norm. Granted yes, capacity at Marylebone, chords at Oxford, single line on the Cotswold Lines at the moment, Midland Metro/Dudley chords, reopening a new terminus at Bidston for Birkenhead/Liverpool or refurbishing the station to make it more 'Inter-City' are problems...but ideas need to begin somewhere.
 

twpsaesneg

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this isn't about a random person's idea occuring not taking into account money etc, this is to publicise the prospect..

I'm intrigued enough to ask then - who is this "we" at MerciaRail - since a brief search online finds Mercia Rail Projects as a micro-company in Derby with negligible assets and not much else?

When you start with
Using redundant HST stock
it does suggest timescales within the next 10 years, since the HST will be 50 years old by then and REALLY ready for the scrapyard.

The reintroduction of the route via the Midland Metro could spring up
Is completely and utterly barking as far as I can see, the civil engineering to do this would be £millions and I'd imagine Midland Metro may object slightly. And that's just one of the engineering and operational challenges which many posters have mentioned.

WSMR was an open access service which made use of available paths on existing infrastructure - whilst learning the lessons from their operations may well be something "merciarail" have done, you're also opening a massive pandora's box of engineering conundrums, planning and consents issues and probably Transport and Work Act Orders with this!

I'd suggest that this is less "My idea" and more "Fantasy" to be honest...
 

swt_passenger

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I'm intrigued enough to ask then - who is this "we" at MerciaRail - since a brief search online finds Mercia Rail Projects as a micro-company in Derby with negligible assets and not much else...
I was wondering that too, cos I’m pretty sure that when I was alerted to the contents of the original post #15, it contained the same info as post #16. Could they be in any way related?
 

The Planner

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Just to re-assure, this isn't one of those ideas that MerciaRail is to be a new operator (it would be great if it could...) and to make this happen in the next 5 years. I feel sometimes these ideas get the same abuse any GCML reopening forum page gets, but remember this is about publicising the prospect of this route being reintroduced at a minimal scale to provide another Inter-City route that isn't of the norm. Granted yes, capacity at Marylebone, chords at Oxford, single line on the Cotswold Lines at the moment, Midland Metro/Dudley chords, reopening a new terminus at Bidston for Birkenhead/Liverpool or refurbishing the station to make it more 'Inter-City' are problems...but ideas need to begin somewhere.

Im not sure what this is trying to achieve, it isn't a route, it is a collection of interventions that don't necessarily unlock anything.
 

43096

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Interesting way of launching a new service - post it on a railway forum with a history of wibble ideas as a "my idea for". It's better presented than most - just some more expensive crayons!

I'll make a prediction: it'll never happen. That an open access operation would justify the infrastructure work for this on a handful of trains a day is just laughable for a start.
 

AlterEgo

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Interesting way of launching a new service - post it on a railway forum with a history of wibble ideas as a "my idea for". It's better presented than most - just some more expensive crayons!

I'll make a prediction: it'll never happen. That an open access operation would justify the infrastructure work for this on a handful of trains a day is just laughable for a start.

Well, quite - this is peak Crayonista.
 

Tobbes

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Well, quite - this is peak Crayonista.

Don't kid yourself, I'm sure that a Ventor Town - Yarmouth (IoW) - tunnel - Sailsbury - Clevedon - tunnel - Marshfield (for Cardiff) - Camarthen - Aberystwyth - Caernarvon - Bangor HSR (HSWhy?) on an all-new alignement with 16tph is the key to future UK prosperity
 

ChiefPlanner

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Don't kid yourself, I'm sure that a Ventor Town - Yarmouth (IoW) - tunnel - Sailsbury - Clevedon - tunnel - Marshfield (for Cardiff) - Camarthen - Aberystwyth - Caernarvon - Bangor HSR (HSWhy?) on an all-new alignement with 16tph is the key to future UK prosperity

You need to add a Far North sleeper connection somewhere , perhaps with a short cut from the Mallaig line via the Great Glen to get the absolute top benefits.

All these services need accommodation for packages of local shellfish / salmon etc - with no contracts , just when the vendor feels he might like to use the train when the Transit / Mercedes van is unavailable.
 

Tobbes

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You need to add a Far North sleeper connection somewhere , perhaps with a short cut from the Mallaig line via the Great Glen to get the absolute top benefits.

All these services need accommodation for packages of local shellfish / salmon etc - with no contracts , just when the vendor feels he might like to use the train when the Transit / Mercedes van is unavailable.

Well spotted, my bad. Proposing this without the Bangor - Amlwych tunnel - Port Erin - Douglas - Jurby - tunnel- Newton Stewart - Paisley - Fort William - Ullapool phase was a drastic oversight.

No problem getting 1000 passengers an hour on the drastically underserved Ventor East - Ullapool flow. At say 750 miles, target end to end time of four hours will be very competitive with air...
 

Harbornite

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Stourbridge - Dudley - Wolverhampton? Would this mean reinstating the Dudley to Walsall line and reversing there?

I think choosing rolling stock is the least of your worries!

Not necessarily, you could instead reopen the OWWR Dudley to Wolverhampton via Bilston route. As much as I like the idea, it's not going to ever happen!
 

sw1ller

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Well spotted, my bad. Proposing this without the Bangor - Amlwych tunnel - Port Erin - Douglas - Jurby - tunnel- Newton Stewart - Paisley - Fort William - Ullapool phase was a drastic oversight.

No problem getting 1000 passengers an hour on the drastically underserved Ventor East - Ullapool flow. At say 750 miles, target end to end time of four hours will be very competitive with air...

Ullapool, genuinely the best fish and chips I’ve ever had! Worth it just for that!
 

twpsaesneg

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Not necessarily, you could instead reopen the OWWR Dudley to Wolverhampton via Bilston route. As much as I like the idea, it's not going to ever happen!
I looked at that but dismissed it before the scale of the crayons became apparent!

Now of course I realise that rebuilding a completely disused alignment and Wolverhampton Low Level station would be entirely within the realms of the MerciaRail fantasy.
Ullapool, genuinely the best fish and chips I’ve ever had! Worth it just for that!
I reckon the Ullapool line for Fish & Chips is the better option.
 

47802

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Interesting way of launching a new service - post it on a railway forum with a history of wibble ideas as a "my idea for". It's better presented than most - just some more expensive crayons!

I'll make a prediction: it'll never happen. That an open access operation would justify the infrastructure work for this on a handful of trains a day is just laughable for a start.

Really that's a bit of an understatement, more chance of me winning a million on lotto, just the usual fantasy nonsense.
 

B&I

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I think a much underserved traffic flow is from certain members of this forum up their own back passages. The practical drawbacks of this idea can be illustrated in 1 or 2 posts. Why are several days of vilification necessary ?
 

47802

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I think a much underserved traffic flow is from certain members of this forum up their own back passages. The practical drawbacks of this idea can be illustrated in 1 or 2 posts. Why are several days of vilification necessary ?

If the poster can not see the nonsense of their post to start with perhaps they deserve several days of vilification:lol:
 
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