My issue with G4S

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6Gman

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The mods having closed the original thread, can I develop my views on G4S as ticket checkers on Northern Rail?

It is clearly within their power to ask to see tickets - but surely only if they can demonstrate that they have that status.

My views are coloured by experience at two stations:

WILMSLOW. I come bowling down the ramp on my way to a meeting. At the station entrance stands a large bloke in a bomber jacket (from memory no G4S logo, and certainly no railway identity). As I'm passing he suddenly asks for my ticket. I ask him for his authority to ask for it. He shows me his identity card. I show him my ticket. Fair enough.

M/CR PICC. The ATW train from Cardiff and points west pulls in, tickets having been checked several times en route. Passengers get off, a typical mix of family parties with children, grannies with suitcases etc etc. Having shown their tickets already most are unprepared for the gaggle of staff waiting at the platform end, so delay as they hunt through their bags for said documents.
Meanwhile, the scrotes who have got on at Stockport hoping for a free journey double-back up the platform, over the footbridge, and exit via an unguarded platform. I can see it happening, but the G4S staff are too busy bothering ordinary passengers to notice.

It just doesn't seem sensible!
 
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ralphchadkirk

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If asked they must present ID that is enough to identify themselves to their employer and state the company they are working for.
 

wintonian

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If asked they must present ID that is enough to identify themselves to their employer and state the company they are working for.

Don't SIA rules state that they must display and show on request their ID - however you try asking someone registered with the SIA to show you their ID cause they won't.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Don't SIA rules state that they must display and show on request their ID - however you try asking someone registered with the SIA to show you their ID cause they won't.

I can't think why barrier staff should be registered with the SIA?

I suppose it depends whether they are contracted to work as barrier staff, or contracted to work as security. The SIA would be relevant in the latter but not the former.

In any case, I know nothing of the SIA's rules so can't comment on that.
 

wintonian

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I can't think why barrier staff should be registered with the SIA?

I suppose it depends whether they are contracted to work as barrier staff, or contracted to work as security. The SIA would be relevant in the latter but not the former.

In any case, I know nothing of the SIA's rules so can't comment on that.

A, this is G4S were talking about, a company that is centred arround the security industry.

B, G4S barrier staff apparently act like security on occasion

C, this is G4S were talking about

So just an assumption really. ;)
 

ralphchadkirk

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Yes, but if the staff are being employed as barrier staff only then I can't see why they would have to have an SIA registration but TOC staff don't.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Because G4S like their staff to think they are important.

They may like to think they are, but I still can't see how an SIA registration is really relevant.

In any case, as I said, I know nothing about the SIA so this is guesswork for me!
 

Bellwater

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G4S are there to check/issue tickets off the Northern local services.

However when a TPE/ATW/XC service rolls up onto the mainline platforms they run round there and demand tickets off passengers..been happening for years.
 

Failed Unit

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G4S are there to check/issue tickets off the Northern local services.

However when a TPE/ATW/XC service rolls up onto the mainline platforms they run round there and demand tickets off passengers..been happening for years.

Can you complain to EMT/TPE/ATW or XC about harrasment?

Although part of me can see Northerns point, if you have travelled from Liverpool - Manchester on a none northern train for free, they still have lost thier share of the revenue.
 

SussexMan

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If asked they must present ID that is enough to identify themselves to their employer and state the company they are working for.

Surely they also need something to show they are acting as agent to the TOC?

22. Inspection of tickets
You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand over for inspection a valid ticket ....


I only have to show my ticket to a staff member of the TOC or its agent so I need to be able to know that they are an agent, do I not?
 

Prodigy

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Some G4S guards are dopey, some use common sense. I remember when around 4 or 5 of them were checking tickets on a Barrier, realistically only 2 of them could actually check tickets and the others were just standing next to them. One was told to keep an eye out on two suspicious looking lads, and instead of using his common sense and going over to them he continued to just stand there and the lads got away.

I just hope this doesn't end up being one of my duties if I get a job with them.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Surely they also need something to show they are acting as agent to the TOC?

22. Inspection of tickets
You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand over for inspection a valid ticket ....


I only have to show my ticket to a staff member of the TOC or its agent so I need to be able to know that they are an agent, do I not?

An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person.
You must show your ticket when requested to an 'authorised person'.
person acting in the course of his duties who:
(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
(b) any other person authorised by an Operator, or
(ii) any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in connection with the railway;
 

6Gman

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Surely they also need something to show they are acting as agent to the TOC?

22. Inspection of tickets
You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand over for inspection a valid ticket ....


I only have to show my ticket to a staff member of the TOC or its agent so I need to be able to know that they are an agent, do I not?

Precisely ![/I]
 

GadgetMan

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An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain a means of identifying the authorised person.

That's very interesting. Our SCWID cards are only suppose to be on show when in non-public areas. The only bit of ID that has to be in public view is company issued uniform and name badge.

Reading the above, the only thing that contains a means of identifying me is photo ID. However the SCWID card holds other personal information which I would not want a passenger to know like surname and depot I am based at.
 

benk1342

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That's very interesting. Our SCWID cards are only suppose to be on show when in non-public areas. The only bit of ID that has to be in public view is company issued uniform and name badge.

Reading the above, the only thing that contains a means of identifying me is photo ID. However the SCWID card holds other personal information which I would not want a passenger to know like surname and depot I am based at.

Why don't they just give you nametags like the FCC guys have?
 

185

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Ha. I'm out in plain clothes tomorrow, and no I don't work for G4S!!

Always causes a giggle when youre sat dressed as a chav amongst the normal punters then just leap out from nowhere "Mornin. Tickets Please!" ;) Only ever once had someone demand a closer look at my ID badge, and even then the other passengers started taking the mick out of her.
 

Bellwater

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Can you complain to EMT/TPE/ATW or XC about harrasment?

Although part of me can see Northerns point, if you have travelled from Liverpool - Manchester on a none northern train for free, they still have lost thier share of the revenue.

Its Northern you'd need to speak to, its their contractors.

They've started wearing a Cheapo version of the Northern Uniform in the last year. They're easy to spot though, you don't see many Northern Staff wearing Rockports and K-Swizz.
 

yorkie

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M/CR PICC. The ATW train from Cardiff and points west pulls in, tickets having been checked several times en route. Passengers get off, a typical mix of family parties with children, grannies with suitcases etc etc. Having shown their tickets already most are unprepared for the gaggle of staff waiting at the platform end, so delay as they hunt through their bags for said documents.
Meanwhile, the scrotes who have got on at Stockport hoping for a free journey double-back up the platform, over the footbridge, and exit via an unguarded platform. I can see it happening, but the G4S staff are too busy bothering ordinary passengers to notice.

It just doesn't seem sensible!
You could write to ATW, asking them to confirm that G4S are authorised to check ATW customers, and if so, whether an announcement can be made on the approach to Manchester Piccadilly for customers to have their tickets ready for inspection?

Please do report back and let us know how you get on :)
 

Failed Unit

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In notice G4s seem to get the worse press, followed by FCC RPI

It is a case that you always remember the worse, I have probably gone past G4s dozens of times but only got harrassed once which was not pleasent. In my case the G4s person had 2 faults, they didnt know the routing guide, nor the fact my ticket could have a break of journey (Manchester Airport - Linlithgow route York @ Manchester Picaddilly SSR)

There threats were to charge me with fare evasion next time, but would let me off this time (after returning from my break and attempting to board a train that had just came from the airport and was heading to Glasgow direct - not via York which I used to get there). To someone not used to the railway they would have found that very intimidating.

Anyone know how much training they get? The inspector did ask the team leader, but he just wanted to reinforce the no break & route York arguement. I don't expect them to know everything, but what means do they have to find out. At least a gaurd can "phone a friend"
 

jopsuk

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There are issues with G4S in every single sector they work in...
 

Yew

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Do G4S do the security for EMT? some trains on the robin hood line in the evening have a 'bouncer' in each carriage?
 

PTF62

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Ha. I'm out in plain clothes tomorrow, and no I don't work for G4S!!

Always causes a giggle when youre sat dressed as a chav amongst the normal punters then just leap out from nowhere "Mornin. Tickets Please!"

Don't take this personally, but I have always wondered why plain clothes staff dress like 'chavs', rather than dress like the 'normal' people on the train.

The last one I met was on a commuter train at 7:30 in the morning who was dressed like they were on the way to a football match, whilst everyone else on the train was in a suit & tie.

Only ever once had someone demand a closer look at my ID badge

Usually I don't bother, but I did with the football hooligan lookalike.
 

Brucey

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Ha. I'm out in plain clothes tomorrow, and no I don't work for G4S!!

Always causes a giggle when youre sat dressed as a chav amongst the normal punters then just leap out from nowhere "Mornin. Tickets Please!" ;) Only ever once had someone demand a closer look at my ID badge, and even then the other passengers started taking the mick out of her.
As a passenger, it's great fun seeing this happen. Especially when the fare dodger realises they chose a seat next to "the ticket man".
 

Welshman

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You could write to ATW, asking them to confirm that G4S are authorised to check ATW customers, and if so, whether an announcement can be made on the approach to Manchester Piccadilly for customers to have their tickets ready for inspection?

They inspect the tickets of everyone exiting from platforms 13 and 14, on the bridge, where it is not possible to see whether they have alighted from Northern, TPE or ATW services.

ATW seems to be happy with this, for their conductors often come through the trains on leaving Newton-le-Willows asking if anyone needs tickets as there will be checks at Piccadilly.

It would be odd if ATW were happy with G4S inspecting their services from Chester and North Wales but not from Crewe and the Marches.
 

tannedfrog

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Always causes a giggle when youre sat dressed as a chav amongst the normal punters then just leap out from nowhere "Mornin. Tickets Please!" ;) Only ever once had someone demand a closer look at my ID badge, and even then the other passengers started taking the mick out of her.
I had my ticket checked onboard a tube recently by a chap in plain clothes. I had never experienced an onboard tube ticket check, and I did check his ID (which was unconvincing but probably genuine), much to his annoyance.
 

scrapy

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Northern have an agreement with ATW, TPE and EMT allowing them (or their representatives) to check tickets on their behalf. G4S (or Northern) cannot check tickets of VT or XC passengers unless part of an agreed revenue exercise.

Similarly ATW can check Northern passengers tickets at Chester.
 

Mike395

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I had my ticket checked onboard a tube recently by a chap in plain clothes. I had never experienced an onboard tube ticket check, and I did check his ID (which was unconvincing but probably genuine), much to his annoyance.

Have to admit, as a regular tube traveller I have never seen it happen either (I have at stations, however) - I know on-train inspections do take place though :)
 
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