My Malton - Whitby New Service Proposal

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matacaster

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Apologies if this should be in the Heritage lines forum but its across both this and NR so wasn't sure.

Would there be any mileage in reopening the relatively short stretch of line between Pickering and the York - Scarborough route just prior to Knapton?

This would enable the NYMR (or even northern) to operate from Malton through to Whitby assuming running powers overrelatively lightly used NR stretch from Malton to the junction. Whitby has a rail service, but its very roundabout if you are travelling from the south west direction (ie Lancashire and West Yorkshire).
 
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markindurham

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Apologies if this should be in the Heritage lines forum but its across both this and NR so wasn't sure.

Would there be any mileage in reopening the relatively short stretch of line between Pickering and the York - Scarborough route just prior to Knapton?

This would enable the NYMR (or even northern) to operate from Malton through to Whitby assuming running powers overrelatively lightly used NR stretch from Malton to the junction. Whitby has a rail service, but its very roundabout if you are travelling from the south west direction (ie Lancashire and West Yorkshire).

Err, no. Covered only today, on
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2584894#post2584894

Another big improvement would be reopening the line from Malton to Pickering - creating a direct link between Whitby and York.

Originally Posted by scarby View Post
I can't see this happening. It's built over for quite a way out of Pickering and would need some serious demolition to restore it. Also, I think there is a fair bit of resistance on the NYMR to having its line used for service trains, which would require major changes.

My comment:-
This old chestnut keeps coming up. Even if the NYMR was to allow operation of other operators' trains, which is somewhere between 'slim' and 'none', with 'slim' reported to have left the building , the line speed is such that it still wouldn't compete with the York-Whitby buses. (That's presuming that you could find an acceptable way through Pickering, of course). I have even seen some clown proposing tilting trains to overcome the curves on the route!!!

It amazes me that there haven't been major improvements made to the Whitby-Scarborough road, of course. At least the 93 bus stops right next to the stations at both Whitby and Scarborough. Oh, and before reinstatement of the Scarborough & Whitby line is suggested, let's head that one off too - again, the curvature of the route made it slow, there would be a reversal needed at the Whitby end at Prospect Hill Junction, the route is built on at Scalby & you have a supermarket built across the old route at Gallows Close, Scarborough. Also, Gallows Close tunnel is filled in, then you would have another reversal at Falsgrave, before entering Scarborough station.
 

Welshman

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I think it would be good to restore York-Malton-Whitby as a through link, as its quite a long way round via Middlesbrough, but I'm not sure how practical it would be, as, apart from any other necessary earthworks, re-connecting in Pickering would now be a major problem.

I am fortunate enough to have travelled on the line from York before it was truncated in the 1960s. There used to be a dmu which left York about 1015am, getting into Whitby in time for a fish and chip lunch. The scenic trip then continued with a run down the coast to Scarborough, and the return to York.

A very enjoyable day-out.
 

NorthernSpirit

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A through service would never materialise, as you'd have to obliterate sections of Pickering to do it. A York to Pickering service could be acheived but it would mean rebuilding the line from Rillington to somewhere south of Pickering and plonking a station there.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I think it would be good to restore York-Malton-Whitby as a through link, as its quite a long way round via Middlesbrough, but I'm not sure how practical it would be, as, apart from any other necessary earthworks, re-connecting in Pickering would now be a major problem.

Let us not forget that the Yorkshire Coastliner bus service 840 is still running and its route of Leeds-York-Malton-Pickering-Goathland-Whitby meets all the connectional requirements to these settlements with no costs for any railway-based infrastructural upgrading or any property demolition en route in town areas, especially noting the previously stated matter of Pickering in that respect.
 

E&W Lucas

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Apologies if this should be in the Heritage lines forum but its across both this and NR so wasn't sure.

Would there be any mileage in reopening the relatively short stretch of line between Pickering and the York - Scarborough route just prior to Knapton?

This would enable the NYMR (or even northern) to operate from Malton through to Whitby assuming running powers overrelatively lightly used NR stretch from Malton to the junction. Whitby has a rail service, but its very roundabout if you are travelling from the south west direction (ie Lancashire and West Yorkshire).

Oh not again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The bulk of the route has been operated as a commercial undertaking for over 40 years. If there was any benefit from reinstatement to the South, don't you think that those who were proactive enough to establish the NYMR, and subsequently develop it into a mainline TOC, would have thought of it already?
That there hasn't even been an attempt to protect the route through Pickering, should tell you all you need to know.
The NYMR is worth more to the local economy, than any reopening of what would be a totally obsolete transport link would be.
 
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markindurham

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Oh not again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The bulk of the route has been operated as a commercial undertaking for over 40 years. If there was any benefit from reinstatement to the South, don't you think that those who were proactive enough to establish the NYMR, and subsequently develop it into a mainline TOC, would have thought of it already?
That there hasn't even been an attempt to protect the route through Pickering, should tell you all you need to know.
The NYMR is worth more to the local economy, than any reopening of what would be a totally obsolete transport link would be.

Well said.
 

Bantamzen

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Let us not forget that the Yorkshire Coastliner bus service 840 is still running and its route of Leeds-York-Malton-Pickering-Goathland-Whitby meets all the connectional requirements to these settlements with no costs for any railway-based infrastructural upgrading or any property demolition en route in town areas, especially noting the previously stated matter of Pickering in that respect.

Speaking as someone who travels to Whitby for the Goth weekends from West Yorkshire, whilst the 840 does provide direct connectivity from Leeds to Whitby, the 3 and a half hours this service takes to reach the town leaves myself and many others very cold. A more direct route into Whitby by rail would be greatly welcomed, because as it stands the only options are to travel via Middlesbrough or head for Scarborough then jump on an X93 or take a taxi. It's often forgotten that many of Whitby's visitors, especially those who stay in one of it's many holiday cottages travel from quite some distance. And with parking being nothing short of a nightmare having better rail connectivity would be a massive boost to the town.

Now I know the chances of a York-Pickering-Whitby connection are ridiculously slim, and I know I risk incurring the wrath of steam enthusiasts, but if a business case could ever be made, the NYMR should expect to at the very least share an upgraded route. For some it is little more than a giant trainset, and the needs of Whitby and it's economy really ought to come first. Perhaps if the old West Cliff to Scarborough line could be re-opened and operations moved there, and allow Pickering-Whitby to become a NR line? The coastal route would surely serve the NYMR as well, if not better?

Sadly neither will happen, and twice a year my wife & I will heading on a TPE to Scarborough then into a taxi to make the trip (it's far quicker than going via Middlesbrough!).
 

markindurham

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Speaking as someone who travels to Whitby for the Goth weekends from West Yorkshire, whilst the 840 does provide direct connectivity from Leeds to Whitby, the 3 and a half hours this service takes to reach the town leaves myself and many others very cold. A more direct route into Whitby by rail would be greatly welcomed, because as it stands the only options are to travel via Middlesbrough or head for Scarborough then jump on an X93 or take a taxi. It's often forgotten that many of Whitby's visitors, especially those who stay in one of it's many holiday cottages travel from quite some distance. And with parking being nothing short of a nightmare having better rail connectivity would be a massive boost to the town.

Now I know the chances of a York-Pickering-Whitby connection are ridiculously slim, and I know I risk incurring the wrath of steam enthusiasts, but if a business case could ever be made, the NYMR should expect to at the very least share an upgraded route. For some it is little more than a giant trainset, and the needs of Whitby and it's economy really ought to come first. Perhaps if the old West Cliff to Scarborough line could be re-opened and operations moved there, and allow Pickering-Whitby to become a NR line? The coastal route would surely serve the NYMR as well, if not better?

Sadly neither will happen, and twice a year my wife & I will heading on a TPE to Scarborough then into a taxi to make the trip (it's far quicker than going via Middlesbrough!).

Perhaps through ticketing would be better then - train to York or Malton from Leeds, then bus from there. Much quicker.

You're right about the business case for reopening - it isn't there and is unlikely to be there. If there was a demand for the direct link, surely the buses would be regularly rammed, certainly between Whitby and Malton/York? They're not. QED.

The NYMR did look at reopening the 'missing link' to Rillington/Malton before the route through Pickering was decimated. No business case then; even less of one now.

The NYMR might be 'a giant trainset' to some - and we know of one person in particular who appears to have made it his life's work to destroy it - but the reality is that it generates a huge amount of annual income for the area; a 7 to 8 figure number, in fact, and local politicians are well aware of that. There's no way that that figure could be maintained, were the NYMR forced to change their operation to accept a TOC's trains, and the character of the line would be effectively destroyed in order to make it suitable for a regular service. (The WSR, for example, operates very occasional through excursions, not regular timetabled traffic, so hasn't had to change, before that idea takes root in this thread). In addition, as previously said, line speed was only 30-40mph on the Pickering-Whitby line, even in BR days, so again you're not looking at rapid services.

As for rebuilding the coast line - another pipe dream, I believe. Remember that the NYMR looked at that one first, but went for the Pickering route instead, as previously discussed on several occasions. Far better and more cost-effective to improve the road between Whitby and Scarborough - it's an awful drive at times, especially if you're stuck behind caravans/HGVs/Sunday pootlers (other days are available ;) )
 

Bantamzen

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Perhaps through ticketing would be better then - train to York or Malton from Leeds, then bus from there. Much quicker.

You are still looking at over 2 hours, and that's without the traffic that blights the roads around York and out on the A64.

You're right about the business case for reopening - it isn't there and is unlikely to be there. If there was a demand for the direct link, surely the buses would be regularly rammed, certainly between Whitby and Malton/York? They're not. QED.

The lack of demand is probably down to the length on the journey. Whitby can get incredibly busy, especially during the WGW weekends I attend. The swing bridge has been shut to traffic twice in recent years due to the number of people in the town. So there can be demand.

The NYMR did look at reopening the 'missing link' to Rillington/Malton before the route through Pickering was decimated. No business case then; even less of one now.

For NYMR maybe, they have a limited budget. But as part of a wider NR improvement scheme maybe. Try asking the people of Whitby what they think.

The NYMR might be 'a giant trainset' to some - and we know of one person in particular who appears to have made it his life's work to destroy it - but the reality is that it generates a huge amount of annual income for the area; a 7 to 8 figure number, in fact, and local politicians are well aware of that. There's no way that that figure could be maintained, were the NYMR forced to change their operation to accept a TOC's trains, and the character of the line would be effectively destroyed in order to make it suitable for a regular service. (The WSR, for example, operates very occasional through excursions, not regular timetabled traffic, so hasn't had to change, before that idea takes root in this thread). In addition, as previously said, line speed was only 30-40mph on the Pickering-Whitby line, even in BR days, so again you're not looking at rapid services.

The NYMR probably generates more income for the surrounding towns and villages than it does for Whitby. Given the rather isolated position of it, to the rail network at least, most people tend to drive to connect to it, and as mentioned Whitby has chronic parking issues which does put people off. A better rail connection to the town and Grosmont would benefit both. So if not the Pickering route, could the existing NR route be sufficiently upgraded to allow more regular services, with perhaps a quicker link the rest of the network without going via Middlesbrough?

As for rebuilding the coast line - another pipe dream, I believe. Remember that the NYMR looked at that one first, but went for the Pickering route instead, as previously discussed on several occasions. Far better and more cost-effective to improve the road between Whitby and Scarborough - it's an awful drive at times, especially if you're stuck behind caravans/HGVs/Sunday pootlers (other days are available ;) )

I always thought that route was the more scenic, it's a shame that it couldn't have been used.

I don't disagree that it's all a bit pie in the sky. But you can't help wondering what things might have been like in the area had it not been for the closures.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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Personally I think a Scarborough to Whitby service would be best (it doesn't need to use Whitby's current station). It could use the tunnel in Scarborough, I know the route in the tunnel is still usable, it's only blocked up at the ends and a single line with a passing loop at Ravenscar would be sufficient. The bus is often so full no one can get on it! A train would solve this problem and could run from either Hull or York too.

It's a small town but it's very busy among tourists.
 

DarloRich

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Personally I think a Scarborough to Whitby service would be best (it doesn't need to use Whitby's current station). It could use the tunnel in Scarborough, I know the route in the tunnel is still usable, it's only blocked up at the ends and a single line with a passing loop at Ravenscar would be sufficient. The bus is often so full no one can get on it! A train would solve this problem and could run from either Hull or York too.

It's a small town but it's very busy among tourists.

and from where shall the money come? It is one thing to draw nice lines on a map, another to build up a business case and find funding.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Might be worth mentioning that Arriva & TPE already offer through ticketing at the Scarborough end

I didn't know about this, and I'm sure many others didn't - so (whilst I am going off-topic a little) clearly there needs to be more effort by TOCs to promote bus links with through ticketing.
 

markindurham

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Personally I think a Scarborough to Whitby service would be best (it doesn't need to use Whitby's current station). It could use the tunnel in Scarborough, I know the route in the tunnel is still usable, it's only blocked up at the ends and a single line with a passing loop at Ravenscar would be sufficient. The bus is often so full no one can get on it! A train would solve this problem and could run from either Hull or York too.

It's a small town but it's very busy among tourists.

*cough* Scalby *cough*
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/scalby/index.shtml

You also have the 'minor' problem of the supermarket and car park at Scarborough blocking both the route and access to the Gallows Close tunnel, which I thought had actually been filled in?

Then there's Larpool Viaduct, which would, I think, require extensive and expensive work before being passed fit for railway use again - unless, of course, you plan on stopping short at the south end, leaving prospective pax with a haul up/down a steep hill to Whitby town centre from the railway alignment.

There is no way that you could compete with bus times town centre-town centre, even on today's road between the towns and with the ends opened up for a rebuilt railway. It's much longer, very curved and with fearsome gradients either side of Ravenscar. Even modern DMUs would struggle with the 1 in 39 & 1 in 43 gradients...
 

scarby

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*cough* Scalby *cough*
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/scalby/index.shtml

You also have the 'minor' problem of the supermarket and car park at Scarborough blocking both the route and access to the Gallows Close tunnel, which I thought had actually been filled in?

Then there's Larpool Viaduct, which would, I think, require extensive and expensive work before being passed fit for railway use again - unless, of course, you plan on stopping short at the south end, leaving prospective pax with a haul up/down a steep hill to Whitby town centre from the railway alignment.

There is no way that you could compete with bus times town centre-town centre, even on today's road between the towns and with the ends opened up for a rebuilt railway. It's much longer, very curved and with fearsome gradients either side of Ravenscar. Even modern DMUs would struggle with the 1 in 39 & 1 in 43 gradients...

Nothing would make me happier to see this line reopened but as you summarise, there are so many serious difficulties after over 50 years of closure. Robin Hood's Bay would also be difficult to re-drive the railway through and the overall cost would be staggering.

The Battersby-Picton link, with a new East-South chord, would be the best option.

As mentioned elsewhere, I do think this is the one possible key to better rail access to Whitby that actually stands somewhere within the realms of realism.
 

AndyHudds

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Crikey, neither Coastliners to Scarborough or Whitby offer a good journey time. I've used the Scarborough Coastliner but no way would I ever on this God's earth ever catch the Coastliner to Whitby and I'm not sure what does actually possess people to use it. That's why it's not full, it's just a total pain, literally, sat on them for 2 hours plus. Surely, a town such as Whitby, who relies on tourism being its primary source of income for the town would be pushing harder for a decent connection into the West Yorkshire heartlands. I lime Whitby but very rarely go, other than in a car, just simply because catching public transport there is an utter pain, I can't be the only one either.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I didn't know about this, and I'm sure many others didn't - so (whilst I am going off-topic a little) clearly there needs to be more effort by TOCs to promote bus links with through ticketing.

If you go on National Rail Enquiries and put, say, Huddersfield to Whitby Bus Station, it gives you no fares and its change at York, even if you enter via Scarborough, it sends you to Scarborough and back to York by train for the bus!!!
 

JohnB57

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I think Whitby is one of those places that benefits from not having better transport links. I've been going there since I was very young - well over half a century - and in season at least it doesn't seem to me that there's any shortage of tourists. Out of season it's just a small, idyllic working port.

Whitby has always been a bit out on a limb, a bit of an effort to get to and with no real potential for commuting. There is no possibility of reinstating the Pickering to Malton line, but even if there were, in my humble opinion it would be the wrong thing for Whitby. Some places are just best left as they are.
 

deltic08

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and from where shall the money come? It is one thing to draw nice lines on a map, another to build up a business case and find funding.

Where would the money come from to improve the roads as someone suggested? We can always find money for road improvements but railways have to have a business case.

Bedale bypass only had a BCR of 1.7 originally until the figures were massaged to over 3. £43m for less than two miles of single carriageway road is hardly value for money.
 

fireftrm

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Bus will always beat rail between Malton and Whitby - probably by an hour. The rail line speed could get to 40mph, but that would make Pickering to Whitby still nearly 2 hours alone.

Whitby people don't associate themselves with York, its too far away - Teesside is much, much nearer and they tend to look to the north as the direction for 'town and city'. The Moors villages (no towns here....) like what they have they are now, thanks. Having said that we had to fight to keep the bus service, as there is too little demand for that from Nov to April, so no hope for a train service at all (even if you could demolish parts of Pickering and its infrastructure)

Picton to Battersby could provide a much faster link, but the demand - its just not there

Try rail to Scarborough and bus from there to Whitby - links at the railway stations at both ends.

Through ticketing on the 840 is already available.

Please let's leave this stupididty to die, once and for all. I can hear the mad baker form Scarborough rising from his dark dingy cellar......don't let him out!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Crikey, neither Coastliners to Scarborough or Whitby offer a good journey time. I've used the Scarborough Coastliner but no way would I ever on this God's earth ever catch the Coastliner to Whitby and I'm not sure what does actually possess people to use it. That's why it's not full, it's just a total pain, literally, sat on them for 2 hours plus. Surely, a town such as Whitby, who relies on tourism being its primary source of income for the town would be pushing harder for a decent connection into the West Yorkshire heartlands. I lime Whitby but very rarely go, other than in a car, just simply because catching public transport there is an utter pain, I can't be the only one either.
The 840 is a perfectly fine service, 2 hours from Whitby to York (or vice versa) is much quicker than any rail journey could be. The scenery is fantastic too. Try driving it by car and you will find it is 1.5 hours anyway. Whitby has plenty of income from the areas it really has in its catchment - which is NOT West Yorkshire - it is Teesside and the North East!
 
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markindurham

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Bus will always beat rail between Malton and Whitby - probably by an hour. The rail line speed could get to 40mph, but that would make Pickering to Whitby still nearly 2 hours alone.

Whitby people don't associate themselves with York, its too far away - Teesside is much, much nearer and they tend to look to the north as the direction for 'town and city'. The Moors villages (no towns here....) like what they have they are now, thanks. Having said that we had to fight to keep the bus service, as there is too little demand for that from Nov to April, so no hope for a train service at all (even if you could demolish parts of Pickering and its infrastructure)

Picton to Battersby could provide a much faster link, but the demand - its just not there

Try rail to Scarborough and bus from there to Whitby - links at the railway stations at both ends.

Through ticketing on the 840 is already available.

Please let's leave this stupididty to die, once and for all. I can hear the mad baker form Scarborough rising from his dark dingy cellar......don't let him out!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 840 is a perfectly fine service, 2 hours from Whitby to York (or vice versa) is much quicker than any rail journey could be. The scenery is fantastic too. Try driving it by car and you will find it is 1.5 hours anyway. Whitby has plenty of income from the areas it really has in its catchment - which is NOT West Yorkshire - it is Teesside and the North East!

Well said - and particularly the bit I've highlighted...
 

E&W Lucas

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Bus will always beat rail between Malton and Whitby - probably by an hour. The rail line speed could get to 40mph, but that would make Pickering to Whitby still nearly 2 hours alone.

Don't know where you've got that from. It was only ever 35 in places, otherwise pretty much as it is now. Some very knowledgeable people have suggested that little or nothing can be done to increase it. Remember, it's a "horse and cart" railway!

Even when Whitby was at its peak as a resort, no attempt was made to enhance or replace the rail link from the south. The line was always severly constrained in terms of locos that could operate over it, and was singled S of Levisham during WW1. If no one bothered when rail was the main means for people to go on holiday, that would suggest that it was either impossible or not worth it commercially. If it was true then, it's even more likely to be true in the age of the family car.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Please let's leave this stupididty to die, once and for all. I can hear the mad baker form Scarborough rising from his dark dingy cellar......don't let him out!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quick, nail the coffin lid down, reach for the garlic!
 

Bantamzen

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Bus will always beat rail between Malton and Whitby - probably by an hour. The rail line speed could get to 40mph, but that would make Pickering to Whitby still nearly 2 hours alone.

Whitby people don't associate themselves with York, its too far away - Teesside is much, much nearer and they tend to look to the north as the direction for 'town and city'. The Moors villages (no towns here....) like what they have they are now, thanks. Having said that we had to fight to keep the bus service, as there is too little demand for that from Nov to April, so no hope for a train service at all (even if you could demolish parts of Pickering and its infrastructure)

Picton to Battersby could provide a much faster link, but the demand - its just not there

Yet the number of events in Whitby seem to increase, as do the numbers going there. For example the Tour de Yorkshire seems like it could be a regular visitor to the town, and as I said earlier the WGW is attracting more and more people and in the last few years there have been so many people in attendance (many of them people just going to "Goth-gawp") that the swing bridge has been shut to traffic for fear of an accident. And Whitby is also becoming increasingly popular for weekend breaks & longer (many cottage leasing companies are becoming more flexible with the booking slots), and many of these visitors do not hail from the Teeside area and can just jump on an X93.

Maybe having a better rail connection such as the Picton link could also help promote the town for a least a couple months during the off-season too. I know some of the people in the area would prefer it not to happen, but economic reality is what it is. Whitby needs the tourist industry, otherwise an awful lot of jobs in the town would go.

Try rail to Scarborough and bus from there to Whitby - links at the railway stations at both ends.

Through ticketing on the 840 is already available.

Tried that, not a lot of fun if you are staying the week with suitcases to match and you are joining a number of others doing the same & other people visiting Whitby or simply commuting.

The 840 is a perfectly fine service, 2 hours from Whitby to York (or vice versa) is much quicker than any rail journey could be. The scenery is fantastic too. Try driving it by car and you will find it is 1.5 hours anyway. Whitby has plenty of income from the areas it really has in its catchment - which is NOT West Yorkshire - it is Teesside and the North East!

Maybe, but for the reasons stated above, its not exactly tourist friendly. Whenever there are events on in Whitby, these buses can get packed and rocking up with a load of suitcases when there's not a lot of room, having already traveled from another part of the country doesn't exactly appeal. Maybe if there was a coach operated service where you had suitable storage areas, but even then at times space would be limited.

It's often all too easy to say that there is no business case and point to the current infrastructure not being constantly rammed. But when the infrastructure isn't all that great, and certainly not geared up for the major part of the town's economy you perhaps need to look at it again. If a link from Picton could be re-established, with a South facing option, would it encourage more of Whitby's visitors to leave the long drive (which in itself is never going to get quicker, especially with the growing traffic, ask any Whitby resident what they think of the traffic issues) in favour of the train. Perhaps with some small speed improvements, a couple more passing loops and semi-"fast" services you could bring the time from York down to around that of the drive? Where would the money come from, well in part from government and North Yorkshire but didn't I read somewhere that the new potash mine development would be offering some funds which could possibly be used on line improvements? (Sorry I've only briefly seen a mention of this, happy to be corrected here)
 

markindurham

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The new potash business is going to put up funds for extra services, morning and evening, I believe. Not sure what else though - an East-North chord at Battersby would help, but I don't think that was considered, tbh. In any case, with DMU operation it wouldn't save much time - there's that pesky BCR at work again ;)
 

fireftrm

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Lots of suitcases causing problems on the Coastliner? Why would they be less of an issue on a train?

E&W 40mph is possible, but 5mph either way would make no appreciable difference

Bantamzen - last WGW people arrived by the Esk Valley rail service, few by 840. For the TdY the increase in Esk Valley & NYMR passenger numbers was dramatic - if by drama having a desperately quiet day is the sign. Last year's event was the worst day in traffic terms for 30 years for the railways. There were quite a few people in Grosmont, but not many more than the previous year and certainly nowhere the number to warrant any increased public transport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I didn't know about this, and I'm sure many others didn't - so (whilst I am going off-topic a little) clearly there needs to be more effort by TOCs to promote bus links with through ticketing.
PlusBus? Hardly a secret! For Scarborough that includes buses as far as Ravenscar to the north
 

Bantamzen

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Lots of suitcases causing problems on the Coastliner? Why would they be less of an issue on a train?

E&W 40mph is possible, but 5mph either way would make no appreciable difference

Bantamzen - last WGW people arrived by the Esk Valley rail service, few by 840. For the TdY the increase in Esk Valley & NYMR passenger numbers was dramatic - if by drama having a desperately quiet day is the sign. Last year's event was the worst day in traffic terms for 30 years for the railways. There were quite a few people in Grosmont, but not many more than the previous year and certainly nowhere the number to warrant any increased public transport.

Yep, my wife and I were two of the people arriving via the Esk Valley. And a lovely run it was too, but given the long wait ar Middlesbrough off the connection from Leeds and the trundle down the Esk Valley, it made for a 3 hour 40 journey from Leeds. We could have done it in less time getting a later service from Leeds and having an additional call at Darlington, but we didn't fancy the risky 6 min connection time at Middlesbrough. And even though it was on the Wednesday before WGW, it was still well loaded with more than a dozen suitcases in the bike / luggage area.

However the 185 (1st Class) and 156 that operated our run had far more luggage space than the Wright Eclipse Gemini that would have trundled from Leeds to Whitby. And the 185 had the distinct advantage of operating from the same station as our connections from Baildon. Saying that we had booked the return journey via a taxi and Scorborough to shorten the travel home.

But plenty of people do prefer to use the train, especially when travelling long distances as many do, even though the 840 calls at York. As I said earlier, pointing to a woefully inadequate infrastructure that is often underused doesn't necessarily mean there is no demand, especially when the roads and car parks around the town are regularly jammed solid. Sometimes you have to think a little outside the box, there is (or at least should) more to a public transport network than just the operator profits or the units being rammed full.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Joined
17 Apr 2011
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27,308
Location
A semi-rural part of north-west England
Picton to Battersby could provide a much faster link, but the demand - its just not there

Those well versed in railway history would realise that there once was a use for Picton station in order to make a change of service in past days:-

Leeds Northern Railway from Northallerton to Picton
North Yorkshire and Cleveland Railway from Picton to Battersby
 

DarloRich

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Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
25,065
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
Where would the money come from to improve the roads as someone suggested? We can always find money for road improvements but railways have to have a business case.

Bedale bypass only had a BCR of 1.7 originally until the figures were massaged to over 3. £43m for less than two miles of single carriageway road is hardly value for money.

Ignoring the obvious point that road funding and rail funding come from different pots and are allocated in different ways lets consider the practicalities.

We want to build Malton to Pickering. Which of the declared CP6 projects should we bin? Consider that they all have a higher potential return, a more pressing need and/or a political dimension.

As an aside: as a long suffering driver between Northallerton and Bedale/Leyburn ANYTHING that takes away the bottleneck at the cross roads in the middle of Beadle is a good thing! The traffic often backs up beyond the A1 and you can get a 4 way Mexican stand off at a junction unsuitable for modern traffic, especially lorries.

The new road also feeds into the new junction with the motorway taking that awful junction by the Leeming Bar Hotel out of regular use. The slip there is too short and the sight lines poor.
 
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