My Malton - Whitby New Service Proposal

[Old Yard Dog]

Its been a few years since I visited Whitby but I seem to remember it being standing room only on the hourly bus from Scarborough, which subsequently made me fell uneasy about relying on it.

 

[deltic08]

Ignoring the obvious point that road funding and rail funding come from different pots and are allocated in different ways lets consider the practicalities.

We want to build Malton to Pickering. Which of the declared CP6 projects should we bin? Consider that they all have a higher potential return, a more pressing need and/or a political dimension.

As an aside: as a long suffering driver between Northallerton and Bedale/Leyburn ANYTHING that takes away the bottleneck at the cross roads in the middle of Beadle is a good thing! The traffic often backs up beyond the A1 and you can get a 4 way Mexican stand off at a junction unsuitable for modern traffic, especially lorries.

The new road also feeds into the new junction with the motorway taking that awful junction by the Leeming Bar Hotel out of regular use. The slip there is too short and the sight lines poor.

In 50 years of living in the area, I have never seen traffic backed up beyond the A1.

Money is always found for overspend on projects. The A1 upgrade north of Leeming Bar is already £135m over budget but that project continues. That would have been plenty to reinstate Malton-Pickering. GWML electrification is £1.5billion over budget but money is found for that.

Buses are no substitute for trains even when a tortuous rail route might be slower in journey time. It is the travelling experience passengers look at. I doubt a York-Pickering bus is any faster than rail would be. Look at the West Highland line.

The only obstacles in Pickering to reinstatement is a public convenience and a car park. Hardly showstoppers.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Part of the A1 overspend is probably as a result of the stop-start off/on nature of the upgrade where the project was cancelled at thr 11th hour only to be reinstated just a few months later!

 

[markindurham]

The only obstacles in Pickering to reinstatement is a public convenience and a car park. Hardly showstoppers.

Reinstating 3 level crossings across busy roads would be a major issue, though, given the drive to eliminate them from Britain's railways. It all adds up.

It really is time for the silver spike, the cross and the garlic, as alluded to earlier

 

[daodao]

In 50 years of living in the area, I have never seen traffic backed up beyond the A1.

Money is always found for overspend on projects. The A1 upgrade north of Leeming Bar is already £135m over budget but that project continues. That would have been plenty to reinstate Malton-Pickering. GWML electrification is £1.5billion over budget but money is found for that.

Buses are no substitute for trains even when a tortuous rail route might be slower in journey time. It is the travelling experience passengers look at. I doubt a York-Pickering bus is any faster than rail would be. Look at the West Highland line.

The only obstacles in Pickering to reinstatement is a public convenience and a car park. Hardly showstoppers.

Rail is far too expensive and inefficient for the light traffic in remoter rural areas. It does have a role, as Beeching recommended, for high density intercity routes, suburban routes into major cities with major congestion problems (albeit with a need for subsidies) and bulk trainload freight. Anything else is pouring money into a bottomless pit.

Hence reopening suggestions in rural areas are daft. Such examples in Yorkshire include Northallerton-Ripon, Beverley-York and Malton-Pickering. A much more useful reopening in Yorkshire would be Guisborough to Nunthorpe, to provide a link to the major town of Middlesbrough.

 

[deltic08]

Rail is far too expensive and inefficient for the light traffic in remoter rural areas. It does have a role, as Beeching recommended, for high density intercity routes, suburban routes into major cities with major congestion problems (albeit with a need for subsidies) and bulk trainload freight. Anything else is pouring money into a bottomless pit.

Hence reopening suggestions in rural areas are daft. Such examples in Yorkshire include Northallerton-Ripon, Beverley-York and Malton-Pickering. A much more useful reopening in Yorkshire would be Guisborough to Nunthorpe, to provide a link to the major town of Middlesbrough.

I agree with your Nunthorpe-Guisborough suggestion as it would increase the frequency from Middlesbrough to the hospital station, but can't agree with you about Northallerton-Ripon-Harrogate.

 

[DarloRich]

In 50 years of living in the area, I have never seen traffic backed up beyond the A1.

Money is always found for overspend on projects. The A1 upgrade north of Leeming Bar is already £135m over budget but that project continues. That would have been plenty to reinstate Malton-Pickering. GWML electrification is £1.5billion over budget but money is found for that.

Buses are no substitute for trains even when a tortuous rail route might be slower in journey time. It is the travelling experience passengers look at. I doubt a York-Pickering bus is any faster than rail would be. Look at the West Highland line.

The only obstacles in Pickering to reinstatement is a public convenience and a car park. Hardly showstoppers.

both projects mentioned above create a much bigger return to the UK economy than reopening Malton to Pickering ever could. Just to be clear: Is your plan is to cancel one or both of the A1 northern extension and/or GW electrification and build some little used lines in North Yorkshire? Having lived in the area for a long time that would be great, but hardly a sensible use of the available resources! The bigger picture and all that.

I might also suggest there is slightly more than a toilet and a supermarket blocking reinstatement. I suppose NYMR could go for some street running like the Welsh Highland Railway.

I must have imagined being sat in long queues through Beadle then. I only lived in the area for 30 odd years so can't call on your breadth of knowledge. My apologies.

 

[daodao]

I agree with your Nunthorpe-Guisborough suggestion as it would increase the frequency from Middlesbrough to the hospital station, but can't agree with you about Northallerton-Ripon-Harrogate.

I didn't state that Ripon-Harrogate was of no value, just Northallerton-Ripon. The frequency of the 36 bus service between Ripon and Harrogate indicates that there might be potential for re-opening this section as a commuter route to Leeds, with trains from Leeds to Harrogate every 15 minutes and then alternately running on to Ripon and York.

 

[markindurham]

Rail is far too expensive and inefficient for the light traffic in remoter rural areas. It does have a role, as Beeching recommended, for high density intercity routes, suburban routes into major cities with major congestion problems (albeit with a need for subsidies) and bulk trainload freight. Anything else is pouring money into a bottomless pit.

Hence reopening suggestions in rural areas are daft. Such examples in Yorkshire include Northallerton-Ripon, Beverley-York and Malton-Pickering. A much more useful reopening in Yorkshire would be Guisborough to Nunthorpe, to provide a link to the major town of Middlesbrough.

I agree with Guisborough-Nunthorpe too - most of the old trackbed is clear, I think?

Beverley-York is probably too far gone anyway, despite the efforts of the Minsters Rail Campaign, particularly east of Stamford Bridge station, because of several encroachments onto the trackbed. Pocklington would be a nightmare too, even though the station building is extant; just look at the roads around it!

However, there could possibly be a case for restoring Stamford Bridge-York, where most, if not all of the trackbed is also clear, particularly if a Park and Ride was part of the package. The A166 bridge west of Stamford Bridge would have to be replaced, of course, but that area is a potential one for a P & R facility. The A166 is rammed with commuters' cars at peak times; SB being very much a dormitory town for York these days. That would free up some space on the A1079 between the A64/A166/A1079 junction and York City Centre too.

 

[sprinterguy]

Buses are no substitute for trains even when a tortuous rail route might be slower in journey time. It is the travelling experience passengers look at...Look at the West Highland line.

The West Highland line is indeed a popular route, despite the bus offering a superior, and itself well patronised, service: An hour faster than the train between Fort William and Glasgow, more frequent and using modern (virtually brand new, in most cases) vehicles with much more comfortable seating than the trains: A much better travelling experience all round, and one that should be improved further once the Tarbet to Inverarnan upgrade of the fiddly bit of the A82 around the upper reaches of Loch Lomond has been completed.

Where the train triumphs over the bus service is in the number of passengers it can shift in one go (admittedly only a handful of times per day) on what is a popular tourist route during the summer season and the "hop on, hop off" opportunity offered for intermediate journeys on a route where the buses can sometimes run as advance reservation only due to heavy loadings, as well as connectivity with the national network.

In a similar vein to what daodao has said, I don't think that you can write off bus services as a means to effectively serve rural areas, although I also recognise the benefit of the comparative permanence and all weather durability of a rail link compared to road, as well as the distinctly hit and miss nature of bus services in rural areas nationwide due to the unwillingness of the operators to themselves operate loss making services in lightly populated areas. IMO rail does also stand a better chance in rural areas where it serves a popular tourist destination such as Whitby and I would like to see faster journey times by rail to Whitby from the south, but I don't think that a reopened Malton - Pickering link is a particularly effective means of doing so.

 

[backontrack]

Didn't Dracula land at Whitby, try to get the train to Middlesbrough, found he couldn't, turned around and went back to Transylvania?

 

[SCH117X]

Buses are no substitute for trains even when a tortuous rail route might be slower in journey time

Thats a bit sweeping but does reflect the general view the travelling public has of bus v train, although their are clear challenges to that like Harrogate to Leeds where the tatty clapped out service is the train and the luxury one is the 36 bus. Reopening Harrogate- Ripon has been a continual topic for three decades at least without any progress being made; indeed issues now exist close to where to would join the existing railway due to a popular Sustrans cycle track and the land adjacent that cycle track now being considered as being a site of wildlife interest.

 

[backontrack]

I support York-Beverley in its entirety - it would take tons of cars off the road and serve the towns of Stamford Bridge, Pocklington and Market Weighton. Then there's also the Uni...

 

[johnnychips]

I support York-Beverley in its entirety - it would take tons of cars off the road and serve the towns of Stamford Bridge, Pocklington and Market Weighton. Then there's also the Uni...

Have you any evidence for this at all? It'd probably be cheaper to put a bus on every 15 minutes, and I doubt it'd be much slower.

 

[AndyHudds]

Have you any evidence for this at all? It'd probably be cheaper to put a bus on every 15 minutes, and I doubt it'd be much slower.

It might well be.....but people don'the want to travel by bus.

 

[backontrack]

Have you any evidence for this at all? It'd probably be cheaper to put a bus on every 15 minutes, and I doubt it'd be much slower.

Plus it would also take buses off the road.

 

[2392]

One thing about the buses 'tween Malton and Pickering that surprised me is that East Yorkshire Transit [not sure of the exact name] that operate the maroon/cream double deckers from Scarborough via Pickering to Helmsley. Don't actually operate a more regular say hourly direct Pickering - Malton service from the Ropey [the goods yard site between Pickering Station and Lidl] in Pickering to the Bus station beside Malton Railway Station. OK Coastliner operate a what 2 hourly service from Leeds via York [calling at the Railway station], Malton station, Pickering Eastgate and onwards to Whitby [calling a Goathland/Aidensfield/Hogsmead]. The Coastliner service is fine as it is, as on and off over the years I've travelled to the Moors that way as a working member. Mainly out of season, though once or twice during the season when Whitby line has been closed fo major repairs i.e. bridge replacement and the likes. I can actually leave home here on Tyneside at 10-11+/- and still be at Pickering at 1:30 +/- rather than 9:10 at latest going via Middlesbrough.

 

[fireftrm]

the 840 Coastliner runs basically hourly Malton to Thornton-le- Dale, through Pickering. Some go through to Whitby.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
the 840 Coastliner runs basically hourly Malton to Thornton-le- Dale, through Pickering. Only some go through to Whitby.

 

[2392]

That's where I've got it slighlty wrong with the Coastliners. It's alternate buses that tend to go all the way to Whitby giving the 2 hour gap so to speak.

 

[talltim]

A more general point rather than specifically regarding Whitby, rail enthusiasts seem to have a thing about reopening closed lines rather than building new ones. In many cases the original alignments are partly gone, not that suitable for speed (built for flatness with low powered locos) and have degraded infrastructure that would need major rebuilding anyway.

 

[deltic08]

I must have imagined being sat in long queues through Beadle then. I only lived in the area for 30 odd years so can't call on your breadth of knowledge. My apologies.

Ah, that is where the confusion occurs. I was talking about Bedale, you lived in Beadle.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ANYTHING that takes away the bottleneck at the cross roads in the middle of Beadle is a good thing!

Yup. We are talking about different towns
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

both projects mentioned above create a much bigger return to the UK economy than reopening Malton to Pickering ever could. Just to be clear: Is your plan is to cancel one or both of the A1 northern extension and/or GW electrification and build some little used lines in North Yorkshire?

At this much overspend, especially GWML electrification, perhaps they should be cancelled. I doubt they would have been authorised in the first place at this price with benefit /cost analysis. HS2 north of Brum is now very insecure due to predicted overrun on costs.

The BCR for Malton-Pickering in 1988 was higher than HS2 is now. (Done by BRHQ York) BCR for Ripon-Harrogate in 2006 was higher than HS2 is now.

What is BCR for GWML electrification at £2.3billion? Spending that amount on electrification still only gives you a railway. Spending £2.3billion on reinstatement provides a facility that wasn't available to many previously.

 

[paul1609]

I didn't know about this, and I'm sure many others didn't - so (whilst I am going off-topic a little) clearly there needs to be more effort by TOCs to promote bus links with through ticketing.

Unless its been withdrawn over the last couple of years there used to be through ticketing from rail to the Yorkshire Coastliner services to Whitby. Last time I did a day trip to the NYMR 40s event it was on a Littlehampton to Pickering BUS Off Peak Return. The Bus used to be shown as a departure from York station as well.
The ticket was just nodded past by the bus driver so Id suggest it wasn't that unusual.

 

[markindurham]

Whitby & Pickering bus arrivals & departures are shown on RTT (detailed) as well as on the boards at York station.

 

[billio]

I didn't know about this, and I'm sure many others didn't - so (whilst I am going off-topic a little) clearly there needs to be more effort by TOCs to promote bus links with through ticketing.

I have seen the times for Coastliner buses for Pickering and Whitby shown on the departures board at York station. (The buses leave from the station entrance)

The East Coast timetable also showed connections to the Peterborough to Great Yarmouth bus route. A relic of the Midland and Great Northern perhaps .

Isn't through ticketing supported to some extent by the plusBus scheme ?.

 

[DarloRich]

Ah, that is where the confusion occurs. I was talking about Bedale, you lived in Beadle.

Yup. We are talking about different towns

Flaming auto correct! Although when i lived outside Northallerton the yokel farmerish locals did call it Beadle!

At this much overspend, especially GWML electrification, perhaps they should be cancelled. I doubt they would have been authorised in the first place at this price with benefit /cost analysis. HS2 north of Brum is now very insecure due to predicted overrun on costs.

Predicted overrun on costs?

The BCR for Malton-Pickering in 1988 was higher than HS2 is now. (Done by BRHQ York) BCR for Ripon-Harrogate in 2006 was higher than HS2 is now.

Like i keep saying. Get the NR LNE route and the TOCS to make a show of interest in these routes ( a proper statement of intent not some glad handing throw away comment) and you will be getting somewhere. Until then...........

What is BCR for GWML electrification at £2.3billion? Spending that amount on electrification still only gives you a railway. Spending £2.3billion on reinstatement provides a facility that wasn't available to many previously.

So you are saying cancel GW electrification and build local routes in North Yorkshire! That and cancel HS2 and build local routes in North Yorkshire.

Again i don't think you are comparing like for like. GW electrification will deliver much more to the national economy and serve more people in a single month than Malton - Pickering and/or Harorgate/Ripon/Northallerton ever could