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My proposal for the UK bus network to be nationalised

greenline712

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Perhaps a pertinent question is to ask if nationalisation is the panacea, then why did bus patronage collapse through the 1950s up to 1986, and despite large amounts of overt and hidden subsidy?
Because of the ascendancy of the private car. As John Hibbs noted, once one person has a car, lifts can be offered to erstwhile bus passengers, who see the convenience, and crave their own car.
It was nothing to do with the structure of the bus industry but simply the rise of the car, and the assistance of Government in making car usage easier through ever more road building.
Nationalisation, per se, will make no difference now. So called "franchisation" will simply transfer risk from private operators to councils who crave control .... it will not by itself increase passenger numbers.
The bus has to be made "sexier" than the car .... and that'll never happen now. There is no longer a "rural bus question" to be answered, and time shouldn't be wasted on trying.
A large stick, in the form of higher fuel tax, coupled with more Park and Ride sites, may help .... but somehow I doubt it. The war is over ......
 
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BazingaTribe

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A lot of people seem to think that bus companies operate to large margins

It's not just bus companies that people think that about. Just about every interest I have that I go on forums about, people seem to think the companies that produce the product or buy their work (on writing forums) are hoarding the money, when in reality costs far outstrip what we think they do (in fact as workers ourselves we want labour costs to go up!) and profits get earmarked to tide them through more volatile periods.

The pandemic shows how major issues can spring up overnight and bite everyone on the behind, and thus sensible companies do put aside money from good years to help with the bad. The railways were taken back into public hands and I assume the £2-£3 fare cap is indicative of government subsidy (because too strict price controls without commensurate replacement funding just lead to people refusing to or being unable to provide the service or goods), but for less essential businesses, failure to plan and keep money aside would simply be fatal.
 

Citistar

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It's not just bus companies that people think that about. Just about every interest I have that I go on forums about, people seem to think the companies that produce the product or buy their work (on writing forums) are hoarding the money, when in reality costs far outstrip what we think they do (in fact as workers ourselves we want labour costs to go up!) and profits get earmarked to tide them through more volatile periods.

The pandemic shows how major issues can spring up overnight and bite everyone on the behind, and thus sensible companies do put aside money from good years to help with the bad. The railways were taken back into public hands and I assume the £2-£3 fare cap is indicative of government subsidy (because too strict price controls without commensurate replacement funding just lead to people refusing to or being unable to provide the service or goods), but for less essential businesses, failure to plan and keep money aside would simply be fatal.

There are a lot of things going on which are creating something of a storm. I think the pandemic also got rid of an lot of people who were running businesses and never making much of a profit. There is now much less willingness to provide a service or perform a task for a poor return simply out of routine because that routine got broken for a period and made a lot of people reconsider their goals in life. The lack of supply in terms of labour and materials is causing costs to rise. Recent changes to public sector procurement procedures have also raised new barriers to market entry for transport providers - look at how few SMEs are still allowed to participate in Manchester's new urban paradise.

I don't see how wholesale nationalising the industry would solve any of these real world problems. It's simple political dog whistling. In the same way as the right point at immigrants, the left point at big companies (whilst also enacting policies which give them total market control).
 

BazingaTribe

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No, I don't see how nationalisation would be a benefit either. It's essentially a blanket idea which assumes government control is an absolute good, while ignoring some of the benefits and market responsiveness privatisation has brought to other fields. I went to several really interesting lectures at university twenty-five (!) years ago when things like PFIs were still a relatively new initiative. A guy from Shelter gave an eye-opening explanation about how government funding for charities and other non-profit/NGO bodies was better because the non-profit sector was often closer to and more enthusiastic about the issues at hand and knew how to direct the money more efficiently than someone in a government office, be it in Whitehall or a local authority, did. It changed my mind.

In the NHS we contract with private providers a lot, because they can run those services more efficiently than we can. I'm still in favour of an overarching, free at the point of delivery health service, but being on the inside for 10+ years has taught me a lot about being freer to make deals where the patient would benefit more than they would if it were solely government-controlled out of raw principle.

So I totally understand why nationalisation wouldn't solve many of the problems with bus services. I do think subsidising routes is a good thing, but from experience with the local authority run buses in Reading, they are totally not exempt from market forces and needing to run services that people actually use. Even if they're not making a profit, they still need to ensure that they're not just pouring taxpayer money down a black hole. The issue is to find ways all round of getting people to use what service exists, not to assume that government ownership would mean routes that are not worth providing would remain in service.

As someone who is dependent on public transport for getting anywhere at all, I really don't want anyone to just do something that essentially just rearranges the deckchairs on the Titanic out of a misguided political principle.
 
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Dai Corner

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It's not just bus companies that people think that about. Just about every interest I have that I go on forums about, people seem to think the companies that produce the product or buy their work (on writing forums) are hoarding the money, when in reality costs far outstrip what we think they do (in fact as workers ourselves we want labour costs to go up!) and profits get earmarked to tide them through more volatile periods.

The pandemic shows how major issues can spring up overnight and bite everyone on the behind, and thus sensible companies do put aside money from good years to help with the bad. The railways were taken back into public hands and I assume the £2-£3 fare cap is indicative of government subsidy (because too strict price controls without commensurate replacement funding just lead to people refusing to or being unable to provide the service or goods), but for less essential businesses, failure to plan and keep money aside would simply be fatal.
In the case of Public Limited Companies the profits which are paid out end up in the pockets of, er, the public who own the shares either directly or through shared investments like pension funds. I always tell people who think making profits is bad to buy some shares; "if you can't beat 'em join 'em".
 

TUC

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is there any plans to re-nationislise the uk bus services ? . personally i would hope so at the momnet except for london our local livererys have all gone .
In what way would nationalisation protect local liveries? Last time around it resulted in them being lost.

Moreover, in what way is something like the loss of liveries a business or policy justification for nationalisation?
 

RT4038

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I'm glossing over the issue of fleets being leased as opposed to being owned outright, but I disagree about the depot expenses. Councils have depots for their bin lorries, gritters and other vehicles - there's nothing to stop them being used for buses, too.
Existing Council depots may be able to be used in some circumstances, but I suspect not in very many.

To take the example of the County of my residence (a mixture of urban [ country towns], peri-urban area adjacent to a Metropolitan County and a considerable rural area):
The bus requirement to operate the current public bus services is about 220, about 205 full size (single and double deck) and 15 mini/midibuses of 25 seats or less. I am ignoring the fleet of commercially operated School Bus services for 'non-entitled' scholars provided by the Independent bus sector, but this may be controversial should nationalisation occur. The bulk of this is operated from 4 bus depots of one operator (roughly 70/60/30/20) and the rest split between bases in adjacent counties and two small operators with small premises within the County.
It is a 'two tier' Authority area, so some of the activities you describe are within the ambit of the County, and some within the District. Some of those activities are contracted out rather than operated from premises of an Authority.
The Authority has 4 transport Depots, which are all fairly cramped and could possibly take 10 buses between them. None of them have any substantial electric charging capability suitable for full size buses. (You can tell that this has already been studied, but not in respect of any possible franchising!). I think it unlikely that managing such small operating centres will be economic and end well.
Two of the bus depots are leased, one partly electrified and one not. The other two are owned by the bus company (both partly electrified to differing degrees). The four bus depots could not accommodate many of the other 40 vehicles operated from out county centres or from the premises of small bus operators).
It may well be possible to take over the leases of the leased depots - however, a change of lessee may well give the lessor an opportunity to get out of the lease [both depots are in prime areas] or increase the lease cost. The two owned depots could no doubt be purchased for a sum, plus another depot somewhere to accommodate the other 30 or so vehicles. These three depots, plus complete electrification costs, would be a sizeable capital sum, and represent a sizeable depot expense.

I know some municipal bus operators in the past (Leicester, Luton certainly) also maintained the Authority's other vehicles, but plenty did not. I know some Authorities now house/maintain some minibuses and school bus fleets. However, operating a large fleet of full size buses in constant use using existing spare capacity is stretching it a bit!

I'd rather see my bus services being localised rather than nationalised. That doesn't mean that I'd like to see my local council take over every service; rather, I'd prefer that there was some "guiding mind" in place. That guiding mind should consist of the people who actually use the services, those who would like to use the services but don't for various reasons, and the people who provide the services.
I agree, but the devil is in the detail of how this can be achieved, and the funding/ control necessary to achieve it.
 

Teapot42

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It's not just bus companies that people think that about. Just about every interest I have that I go on forums about, people seem to think the companies that produce the product or buy their work (on writing forums) are hoarding the money, when in reality costs far outstrip what we think they do
I think it may be more subtle than this, at least in some cases. I sell on eBay and the majority of the negative comments I see are from people who are under the impression they are dealing with a large multinational so they can afford it. I often wonder how many would be happy to claim an item didn't arrive for example if they knew they were buying from an individual who has invested time and energy at very little profit in to producing something they value? (Not saying all INRs are fraudulent, but enough are to say it's commonplace)

To get this back OT, I wonder if the loss of small local companies has contributed to the lack of respect amongst the public? It's too easy to see a large faceless corp and think they are just out to rip you off, or it doesn't matter if you damage their bus, they can afford it.

I actually wonder if it would be better for the likes of Stagecoach to run their many subsidiaries with local branding, make them seem relevant to where they operate and part of the community. At worst it'll improve the sense of attachment of current customers and at best will make improve their image beyond those who don't have the option but to travel by bus.
 

BazingaTribe

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I'm not sure how eBay fits in here. In the UK -- outside London -- there's not much scope to evade fares on the bus.

WRT Fleabay, I've certainly had items not received in the past and in some cases when I contacted the seller it arrived soon afterwards with a postmark just after I queried it...so things happen on both sides. I even bought a packet of fortified sports drinks that came in a packet from Amazon clearly labeled zero sugar and 750ml bottles but the wrapping contained sugary drink in 550ml bottles, so -- SNAFUs happen. As long as I chase stuff up and make sure I'm doing my bit to send things as securely as possible (and I had a book I sent out arrive damaged and I guessed it might because I know I didn't package it brilliantly) the power in the online transaction dynamic is generally with the seller, so I'm in full favour of buyer protection.

Honestly in many respects, it's hard to practically avoid/evade bus fare in quite the same way as it is on the trains (London and other contactless payment places notwithstanding). I got caught once in Poland with no ticket and paid the fine (which I'm positive was a bribe, particularly when they found out I was a foreigner, but never mind). The inspector ranted at me and asked (rhetorically) whether people in England had to buy tickets to use the bus. I almost said 'in England we can't get on a bus without paying' but bit my lip because being sarky about it would probably not have done me any favours, and in any event it would have been hypocritical as I knew I was in the wrong. It was enough of a fine that I learnt a lesson about it.

I honestly think many people think a bus is a bus is a bus. There is more sentiment around 'use it or lose it' when our local route has been in jeopardy a few times, but we didn't much care who provided it so long as they had the service running.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Because of the ascendancy of the private car. As John Hibbs noted, once one person has a car, lifts can be offered to erstwhile bus passengers, who see the convenience, and crave their own car.
It was nothing to do with the structure of the bus industry but simply the rise of the car, and the assistance of Government in making car usage easier through ever more road building.
Nationalisation, per se, will make no difference now. So called "franchisation" will simply transfer risk from private operators to councils who crave control .... it will not by itself increase passenger numbers.
The bus has to be made "sexier" than the car .... and that'll never happen now. There is no longer a "rural bus question" to be answered, and time shouldn't be wasted on trying.
A large stick, in the form of higher fuel tax, coupled with more Park and Ride sites, may help .... but somehow I doubt it. The war is over ......
My point was rhetorical (in part) and I was alluding to the fact that bus services don't exist in a vacuum but are intimately impacted by wider social trends. In those highly rural areas that were never viable (or at the very edges at best), you had generations where car ownership was limited and you had a coterie of women who had never learnt to drive and had little to no access to a car in any case. That has now gone, and we can say the same of the decline of the evening drinker in the 2000s, as we could in the 1950s when the refrigerator meant the end of the near-daily shopping trip or television spelt the end of the evening cinema trip.

So in the case of intensely rural services, the gig is up and it's about getting the most appropriate coverage for the lowest amount of financial support (i.e. not DRT). In the shires, there is probably the opportunity (in some circumstances) where there can be growth. Even in places like Wiltshire, there have been examples in the 2000s where partnerships between the LA and Stagecoach managed to generate patronage on certain corridors.

However, it is really in those urban environments where buses can still play a major part in moving large numbers of people. What it isn't is to be sexy - it needs to be a viable alternative for major traffic flows. I had hoped that we might see the Labour government with a clear plan to wean the country off the 5p fuel duty holiday and perhaps tilt the balance to buses just a little. It really does need local politicians to be brave enough to make and keep with plans to improve bus priority to make buses more reliable and more competitive (as we've seen in Brighton and Reading amongst others). The "bring back control" mantra and caricatures of bus barons is just catnip fed by politicians; what I want to know is why there would be more people travelling from Farnworth to Bolton under Bee Network? What is BN doing to make buses fundamentally more attractive to passengers?
 

43106

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I'd like the bus companies to be nationalised. Stagecoach, First Group, Arriva and the rest are in it just for the money and I'd like to see them wiped off the face of the earth. I'd replace them with Regional companies, based purely on their locales with their own distinctive liveries and centred on cities and large towns. I wouldn't go the route of the National Bus Company - that was a massive mistake. Similarly, the creation of the Passenger Transport Executives destroyed the local municipalities and took the industry into corporatism, which I utterly detest. Buses and coaches are for the travelling public, not the Stock Exchange nor for filling the pockets of the rich at our expense,
 

Richard Scott

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I'd like the bus companies to be nationalised. Stagecoach, First Group, Arriva and the rest are in it just for the money and I'd like to see them wiped off the face of the earth. I'd replace them with Regional companies, based purely on their locales with their own distinctive liveries and centred on cities and large towns. I wouldn't go the route of the National Bus Company - that was a massive mistake. Similarly, the creation of the Passenger Transport Executives destroyed the local municipalities and took the industry into corporatism, which I utterly detest. Buses and coaches are for the travelling public, not the Stock Exchange nor for filling the pockets of the rich at our expense,
Seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding of profits of companies. There is this idea that profits are for the rich, which is plainly untrue. A lot of shares are held by pension companies, for example, you happy to forgo your pension? Companies need to make profit to reinvest.
There is no incentive to be resourceful when you have the government behind you so I'm willing to bet the serviceswould be no better or cheaper. Lots of posts have alluded to the fact that bus company profits are small and there aren't hundreds or thousands of millionaires swanning around on the back of such profits.
I remember nationalised buses and, where I lived, the service was poor and expensive. It was a large town where the service in infinitely better now with a higher proportion of car ownership than 40/50 years ago.
 

JonathanH

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Seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding of profits of companies. There is this idea that profits are for the rich, which is plainly untrue. A lot of shares are held by pension companies, for example, you happy to forgo your pension? Companies need to make profit to reinvest.
It sounds like pension companies would be better off not investing in transport companies though, if they are not going to generate profits. The money can be invested elsewhere in companies where the general public is prepared to see reasonable margins and profit.

The message from this thread appears to be that public transport operations should be entirely self funding, subject to revenue support where necessary, with fares otherwise exactly meeting costs, including purchasing new vehicles on a periodic basis. Obviously demand fluctuates so some method of balancing costs and receipts over time needs to be allowed for.

The NBC operation wasn't great, because it didn't really do marketing well, but maybe that was the problem in the 1970s and early 1980s.

'Nationalised' is a strange term because few would want the government directly running the company. What seems to be desired, and this goes for the railway too, is an arms-length company wholly 'owned' by the nation where the treasury provides the guarantee that it won't go bust, but which provides no return above that needed to reinvest.
 

BazingaTribe

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I think the objection is to the general assumption that profit is a dirty word. All it means is that someone considers it worthwhile to provide a good or service and generates a bit more on top of the actual costs in order to set money aside either for situations where returns might be down, costs go up, or there is a wish to expand or upgrade a service. Fundamentally, it's how humanity has done business from the year dot and most other experiments with alternative systems have failed, largely because they didn't give people the incentive to produce what we needed or because they stifled innovation because there was no point to developing new ideas.

In my experience, Stagecoach is pretty good for what I need it for. I don't really care what colour the buses are so long as they get me to and from the town centre.
 

Eyersey468

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It's not just bus companies that people think that about. Just about every interest I have that I go on forums about, people seem to think the companies that produce the product or buy their work (on writing forums) are hoarding the money, when in reality costs far outstrip what we think they do (in fact as workers ourselves we want labour costs to go up!) and profits get earmarked to tide them through more volatile periods.

The pandemic shows how major issues can spring up overnight and bite everyone on the behind, and thus sensible companies do put aside money from good years to help with the bad. The railways were taken back into public hands and I assume the £2-£3 fare cap is indicative of government subsidy (because too strict price controls without commensurate replacement funding just lead to people refusing to or being unable to provide the service or goods), but for less essential businesses, failure to plan and keep money aside would simply be fatal.
That's true, another one is car dealers, a lot of people think they make a large profit on a car when the reality is they don't
 

TheGrandWazoo

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It sounds like pension companies would be better off not investing in transport companies though, if they are not going to generate profits. The money can be invested elsewhere in companies where the general public is prepared to see reasonable margins and profit.
Perhaps it’s because they are (or were) consistent if lower margin performers?
The NBC operation wasn't great, because it didn't really do marketing well, but maybe that was the problem in the 1970s and early 1980s
Marketing poor, cost control poor, lack of commercial agility and massively constrained by political considerations.
 

GusB

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As for @philg999's recollections of 1986, that was a moment in time. I was brought up in a rural shire county and there was a greater service provision in 1986 than now.
Moreover, it didn't change appreciably in 1986 as many services moved to tenders (having already had council support) AND arguably provision was better by 2000 because of various funding schemes; instead, it was post 2010 when the coalition government slashed the grant to local authorities so that services got chopped. I'd also point out that in 1986, my county had worse bus services than in 1981 (when various council cuts and MAP schemes were enacted), and they were worse than 1971 when government funding was cut back.
In 1986 that was certainly the case for me. The bus service was more or less hourly from Monday to Saturday between the hours of 7am and 11pm (with roughly a 90 minute gap between 8 and 10pm) and there were three return trips from town on a Sunday. That service pattern was the same as it had been for years before de-regulation and it remained so for a good while afterwards. The actual departure times were tweaked every now and again but, overall, the service pattern remained the same.

After 1985/6, the first run in the morning and the post 6pm services were put out to tender by the regional council. It didn't make any difference to begin with because the incumbent operator won that tender, but a few years later those services were re-tendered and were won by a neighbouring (nationalised) operator.

That was a pain for me because, while I had a season ticket to get me to and from school, it meant that my season ticket no longer covered my evening journeys to band practice/model railway club etc. I could mitigate against this by taking an earlier bus into town in the evening, but I would still have to buy a separate single to get me home on one of the last buses. The same would have applied for someone who had to be in town for an 8am start and finished work at 5pm - two different operators were involved despite them both being government owned!

After privatisation there was a brief improvement when the day services went half-hourly and two additional journeys were added to the Sunday timetable. This made a huge difference for getting to and from work - I had far less hanging around time between starting/finishing and leaving/getting home. The later Sunday services allowed me to go away for weekends more often because I knew I'd be able to get home without relying on unaffordable taxis.

My point was rhetorical (in part) and I was alluding to the fact that bus services don't exist in a vacuum but are intimately impacted by wider social trends. In those highly rural areas that were never viable (or at the very edges at best), you had generations where car ownership was limited and you had a coterie of women who had never learnt to drive and had little to no access to a car in any case. That has now gone, and we can say the same of the decline of the evening drinker in the 2000s, as we could in the 1950s when the refrigerator meant the end of the near-daily shopping trip or television spelt the end of the evening cinema trip.
The point about women who were unable to drive is a good one. On my evening return journeys, the majority of passengers were women who were coming home from the bingo (there were a few blokes too), but none of them could drive and, in those days, pensioners were still paying half-fare. When the bus company introduced minibuses there were a few occasions where I'd have to stand on the way home and as a result I'd often wait for the very last bus in order to make sure that I was able to get a seat!

So in the case of intensely rural services, the gig is up and it's about getting the most appropriate coverage for the lowest amount of financial support (i.e. not DRT). In the shires, there is probably the opportunity (in some circumstances) where there can be growth. Even in places like Wiltshire, there have been examples in the 2000s where partnerships between the LA and Stagecoach managed to generate patronage on certain corridors.
I agree about the gig being up. In the case of my local route, the main customer base literally died off. The increase in car ownership ensured that there wasn't another generation following. I have to admit that I played my own individual part; as soon as I passed my driving test I would drive because I no longer had to rely on lifts to get me to my ultimate destination and, more importantly, no longer had to hassle people to make sure that those lifts got me back to the bus station in time to avoid being stranded.

Latterly, the uncertainty about funding for the evening services was probably the final nail. They were initially cut back due to a lack of funding, reinstated after the council had a rummage down the back of the sofa and then cut back permanently.

However, it is really in those urban environments where buses can still play a major part in moving large numbers of people. What it isn't is to be sexy - it needs to be a viable alternative for major traffic flows. I had hoped that we might see the Labour government with a clear plan to wean the country off the 5p fuel duty holiday and perhaps tilt the balance to buses just a little. It really does need local politicians to be brave enough to make and keep with plans to improve bus priority to make buses more reliable and more competitive (as we've seen in Brighton and Reading amongst others). The "bring back control" mantra and caricatures of bus barons is just catnip fed by politicians; what I want to know is why there would be more people travelling from Farnworth to Bolton under Bee Network? What is BN doing to make buses fundamentally more attractive to passengers?
I still think that there's hope for some, if not all, rural services. I don't really envisage that there will be a return of evening services in my area but I think there's scope for Sunday services, even if it's only on a seasonal basis. It does require a bit of joined up thinking and some decent marketing. If nothing else, in an area where there's no natural competition between operators and tendered services are the norm on certain routes, there should be some effort to provide a multi-operator ticket or a common contactless system.

It doesn't really matter if a company is owned by a national government, a council, a large private group or a small independent; we should have a transport system that allows people to make seamless journeys between point A and B without worrying about the cost of going via C, D, etc.
 

TUC

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I'd like the bus companies to be nationalised. Stagecoach, First Group, Arriva and the rest are in it just for the money and I'd like to see them wiped off the face of the earth. I'd replace them with Regional companies, based purely on their locales with their own distinctive liveries and centred on cities and large towns. I wouldn't go the route of the National Bus Company - that was a massive mistake. Similarly, the creation of the Passenger Transport Executives destroyed the local municipalities and took the industry into corporatism, which I utterly detest. Buses and coaches are for the travelling public, not the Stock Exchange nor for filling the pockets of the rich at our expense,
Food is even more vital than transport. Supermarkets do rather well at meeting that need, all of them privately owned. No one would want a monopoly state-run supermarket. Why should transport be any different?
 

Fawkes Cat

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No one would want a monopoly state-run supermarket. Why should transport be any different?
Ok. I'll say it before anyone else does: no one seems to have proposed nationalising all of transport. If nothing else, the mechanics of nationalising everyone's private car would be quite challenging.
 

TUC

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Ok. I'll say it before anyone else does: no one seems to have proposed nationalising all of transport. If nothing else, the mechanics of nationalising everyone's private car would be quite challenging.
I think you're just being pedantic. Everyone knows that the reference is to public transport.
 

JonathanH

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No one would want a monopoly state-run supermarket.
If it was run as well as the current supermarkets, and meant that suppliers were paid a fairer price, frontline staff were paid more and managers less, prices didn't increase and profits were reinvested, I think most people would welcome the concept. However, there is a practical limit to how much can be controlled by the state.
 

TUC

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If it was run as well as the current supermarkets, and meant that suppliers were paid a fairer price, frontline staff were paid more and managers less, prices didn't increase and profits were reinvested, I think most people would welcome it.
I get no further than the phrase 'if it was run as well as the current supermarkets'. Do you not think that competition, the need to attract customers and the drive for profit all contribute to supermarkets being run well? The notion that without those drivers the state would be as good, and offer as much value for money, is frankly laughable.
 

JonathanH

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I get no further than the phrase 'if it was run as well as the current supermarkets'. Do you not think that competition, the need to attract customers and the drive for profit all contribute to supermarkets being run well? The notion that without those drivers the state would be as good, and offer as much value for money, is frankly laughable.
So perhaps the contrast with public transport is that nationalisation is the only way forward for public transport because there is no effective competition or drive for profit, other than cars?
 

BazingaTribe

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I get no further than the phrase 'if it was run as well as the current supermarkets'. Do you not think that competition, the need to attract customers and the drive for profit all contribute to supermarkets being run well? The notion that without those drivers the state would be as good, and offer as much value for money, is frankly laughable.
Yeah, that was tried in the USSR and failed hard. Google 'soviet photos' and half of them are of queues.

Also I work as an administrator to a team of managers in NHS property management (so by no means the private sector) and they work incredibly hard. They're doing more than just earning a payslip; they're responsible for budgets of millions of pounds and work way more than the standard 37.5 hours a week. Running a business, even one in the public sector, is harder than you think. I can clock off at 5 and put my feet up; they are working far, far longer than that. My parents were the same. So there's a reason that, even in the public sector, management get paid more -- it's the responsibility for things going right on a bigger level than just the individual checkout.
 
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So perhaps the contrast with public transport is that nationalisation is the only way forward for public transport because there is no effective competition or drive for profit, other than cars?
There was effective competition in a number of parts of the country in the early post-deregulation period. For example in Teesside, alongside competition on individual routes, competition for tenders on subsided services results in the subsidy cost reducing from over £5m per year to £1.8m.

The argument is perhaps against the big groups and their dominance in the market rather than for nationalisation.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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So perhaps the contrast with public transport is that nationalisation is the only way forward for public transport because there is no effective competition or drive for profit, other than cars?
I'm assuming that you weren't around when the bus network was nationalised before?

It was grossly inefficient, and with one or two exceptions, there was no real focus on any form of real social benefit. Here's one example - South Yorkshire PTE's bus operations in its last year of operation had farebox revenue of £17m. The amount of direct subsidy was £60m o_O
 

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I do suspect that those supporting nationalisation do so with a sentimental snd/or political perspective rather than a business efficiency or even a customer perspective.
 

Dai Corner

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I'm assuming that you weren't around when the bus network was nationalised before?

It was grossly inefficient, and with one or two exceptions, there was no real focus on any form of real social benefit. Here's one example - South Yorkshire PTE's bus operations in its last year of operation had farebox revenue of £17m. The amount of direct subsidy was £60m o_O
I thought those in charge of 'The People's Republic of South Yorkshire' saw lots of social benefit in dirt cheap buses and secure, reasonably well paid jobs for the masses until they 'ran out of other people's money'? Perhaps I'm showing my age here!
 

BazingaTribe

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Dirt cheap is fine but if it isn't sustainable in the long run you get problems. The money has to come from somewhere as a unit of productivity.
 

Dai Corner

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Dirt cheap is fine but if it isn't sustainable in the long run you get problems. The money has to come from somewhere as a unit of productivity.
That's exactly what the Prime Minister who deregulated the buses and I quoted was referring to.
 

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