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My Yorkshire Crossrail Proposal

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alexl92

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I'm not sure if the gound beneath Leeds is suitable for proper tunnelling to this degree anyway, is it?

Rail links from the northern side of Leeds (Alwoodley/Adel/Roundhay etc) would be fantastic but simply impossible above ground for space reasons and unlikely to be justified as a tunnel because of the cost.
 
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HSTEd

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Perhaps should consider a more ambitious underground scheme along the lines of Stuttgart 21......

Obliterate the aboveground station.
 

Blamethrower

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Perhaps should consider a more ambitious underground scheme along the lines of Stuttgart 21......

Obliterate the above ground station.

Now you're talking, imagine the wealth of re-claimed bricks from the arches!

I've been drawing crayons over Leeds for years having lived there for 7 of them and I like this OP. The only issue I have with it is that if you're going with the "build it and they will come" methodology, you would need to address the north-south axis as well as the east-west (as someone else has suggested).

There is a huge part of the city not near a railway - Headingley all the way round to Cross Gates. Places like Alwoodley, Moortown, Oakwood etc etc are traffic filled suburban gridlock and it was awful living there and working in the centre.

I would add to Klamberts proposal by changing Harrogate and Airedale lines to tram-train, merging the lines just outside of Armley (by farnells where they currently merge) but then take that line over the central viaduct, then through the city centre as per the old supertram proposals.

After that, take them out of the city centre, Harrogate line goes up the Easterley Road A58 to Seacroft and the Airedale line up the A61 Scott Hall road to Alwoodley.

Current OP proposals for a crossrail wouldn't change, you could just send the traffic from Cross gates way down to Hudders or Wakey.

But this is Leeds, nothing WILL EVER HAPPEN, EVER. It's my fave UK city, but the worst to get around
 

glbotu

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So, just to give an idea of what could be feasible for probably less money. Currently, I think the maximum number of trains running along the two track viaduct east of Leeds station is 12tph (or there abouts, it might be 13tph in one hour). That includes stock moves to Neville Hill. Currently, on conventional signalling, SWT runs 20 tph in the morning peak on the Up Main Slow to Waterloo. So, with a moderate signalling improvement East of Leeds, we can squeeze out an extra 8tph.

Now, I hear you exclaim, we have variable stopping patterns at Garforth, Micklefield etc, which is why we can't just chuck 20tph down there. We have to keep the XCs and TPEs fast. Well, again, for still a lot less than tunnelling, you could make notably better use of what is a 4 track alignment all the way to cross gates from Saxton Gardens, moving the slow trains out of the way of the fast trains there. The Neville Hill trains make some use of one of the extra tracks from Neville Hill - Saxton gardens, but I think that's it.

But where to send them? Well, for still a lot less than tunnels under Leeds, you could probably re-open to Wetherby, which has, for quite some time, wanted its railway service back. While 8tph to Wetherby seems possibly excessive, you could probably add a few more trains out towards Selby and York too with some re-jigging of the signalling, only putting the stopperiest of trains out towards Wetherby, let's give it a modest 4tph. That now gains us half of the "Airedale and Wharfedale" services off-peak. The other half could get sent to Selby or York once TPE Electrification comes about (which is probably the timescales we're talking about anyway). I'm sure higher acceleration EMUs would do better at getting out of the way of Voyagers than the current Pacer/Sprinter combos that do it now. I hear there's a lot of 360s looking for work these days........

From an "East/West" perspective, that's probably a way more likely scenario than expensive tunnelling or tram-trains (the more expensive form of trams and trains).

Now an ambitious North/South solution would be looking at something. Although it is really difficult to find any above-ground space for anything when looking at Roundhay/Oakwood etc. You might be able to build some brand new cuttings towards Harrogate, Wetherby or something I guess, but it would be a big land take and wouldn't take you through anywhere useful.
 

superkev

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I read somewhere the new alps tunnel cost less per km that predicted for hs2 so in the uk world of red tape a tunnel may be an option.
K
 

Bald Rick

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I read somewhere the new alps tunnel cost less per km that predicted for hs2 so in the uk world of red tape a tunnel may be an option.
K

You don't have neighbours under a mountain, and rock is easy to tunnel through.
 

billio

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I would suggest the following :

In Bradford re-open Laisterdyke station and the curve from there towards Halifax to take faster services from the Calder Valley towards Leeds. Direct trains from Calder Valley to Bradford would terminate at Bradford.

Run tram-trains from Bradford Interchange to Leeds where as you suggest they would enter the city on the old Central viaduct and then drop to street level, Aire Street, passing outside Leeds station and along Boar Lane.

The tram-trains provide a connection back from Laisterdyke back into Bradford where we need to look at a sensible way to route them through the city centre to somewhere useful. As this is a discussion about Leeds we should leave that to another thread, but the point now being that a connection from Laisterdyke to numerous places in the city might prove more useful than just a reversal at Bradford Interchange. Speeding up Calder Valley services to Leeds would also be useful, it may make this a viable alternative to the route via Huddersfield.

However, back to Leeds ... continuing the tram service from Boar Lane , up Vicar Lane, towards Roundhey and then along the A58 with it's broad central reservation to the ring road providing park and ride. This should help provide north-east Leeds with a fairly fast connection into national rail services at Leeds station. This cross city line could form the basis of further extensions.
 

Kettledrum

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Whilst I admire the ambition and vision of the original poster here, we do not have a track record of implementing these sorts of schemes in this country.

Contrast that to Germany, where almost every big city has a tram network AND a metro system.

Many of our cities have struggled to construct even one metro or tram line.
Leeds certainly hasn't got a track record of doing anything like this.
It has taken Birmingham and the West Midlands 20 years to build a one mile extension to the Midlands Metro, which just goes to show how difficult it is to get these schemes off the ground.
 

NoMorePacers

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Whilst I admire the ambition and vision of the original poster here, we do not have a track record of implementing these sorts of schemes in this country.

Contrast that to Germany, where almost every big city has a tram network AND a metro system.

Many of our cities have struggled to construct even one metro or tram line.
Leeds certainly hasn't got a track record of doing anything like this.
It has taken Birmingham and the West Midlands 20 years to build a one mile extension to the Midlands Metro, which just goes to show how difficult it is to get these schemes off the ground.

I think it's down to general attitude in this country, we want to be 'different' in this country from the rest of Europe, and indeed, the World. We think we're better than everybody else, and I'm sure many of our leaders and politicians would rejoice at the thought of bringing the British Empire back 'to it's former glory'. Actually this has inspired me to create a new thread.
 

najaB

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Contrast that to Germany, where almost every big city has a tram network AND a metro system.
Almost every big UK city *had* a tram network. The difference is that Germany didn't go crazy ripping their networks out in the 1950's.
 

urbophile

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Leeds had an excellent tramway system until the 1950s. Much of it on segregated tracks in the middle of dual carriageways. Surely most of those still exist and could be restored at a fraction of the cost of tunnelling.
 

Senex

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I think it's down to general attitude in this country, we want to be 'different' in this country from the rest of Europe, and indeed, the World. We think we're better than everybody else, and I'm sure many of our leaders and politicians would rejoice at the thought of bringing the British Empire back 'to it's former glory'. Actually this has inspired me to create a new thread.
Got it in one! But it's not just that we want to be "different", it's also a reluctance to recognise that we can learn from other countries, and that is something that seems to have applied very strongly on our railways during the twentieth century. As "the country that gave railways to the world" we had to be the country that always knew best.
 

quantinghome

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It's true that we could learn from other countries, but the main reason that we don't have good local transport infrastructure is rather more mundane: it's simply that most local authorities don't have the legal or the financial power to build and run their own transport services. Even relatively minor things like local stations and new roundabouts in Leeds need central government funding these days. The sooner these powers are handed back to local government the better. Where this has happened - London, Scotland, Manchester - we've seen significant increases in transport spending.
 

HSTEd

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I must admit I am a major fan of the idea of burying railway lines in city centres - it does free up significant amounts of land and prevents lots of the tresspass and cable theft incidents that cause such problems.
Also the relatively heavily used tunnels tend to prevent temperatures dropping low enough that massive icing becomes an issue as they gradually heat up thanks to traction energy dispersal.

But it is very capital intensive in the short run. But with interest rates so low I am not entirely inconvinced it is necessarily a bad idea. Index linked gilts are running -1.4% in real terms over 50+ years after all.
 

quantinghome

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I believe there is a station(s) under the alps but they have decided to not open it.16080396
K

They're emergency stop platforms. Let's hope they don't have to open them!

My point was that you need to strip out the costs of rebuilding Euston, new sub-surface and surface stations at OOC etc. before comparing HS2 with AlpTransit. In fact, the best Swiss comparison would be the Mattstetten–Rothrist new line, but to be valid this would only compare the costs of the HS2 'country' section.
 

43021HST

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Some very attractive suggestions by tbtc and glbotu, especially the re-introduction of rail services to Wetherby, and opening a station at the back of the White Rose centre.

I think I must address the biggest question posed by the posters of this thread.

Why tunnel, when there maybe cheaper options available?

Ok well for a start after looking at Leeds station itself, there doesn't seem much room for expansion, without needing to demolish a load of brand new and expensive Office blocks to the south of the station, which could for start tarnish Leeds City centres reputation as being attractive redevelopment land for property developers. I'd argue one of the main reasons why a railway is built or improved, is firstly to relieve congestion, secondly to help raise property prices, thus stimulating the areas local economy. Would it not be counteractive then to go and demolish what is some prime office land for rail expansion? So how do you go about and expand rail services in the area without demolishing some prime property? Well you do what was learnt in London and go underground.

Leeds rail services, at the moment suffers from some chronic peak time congestion. I think mostly due to the fact that Passengers interchanging between trains and those who want to embark and disembark at Leeds city centre are all concentrated on one point aka Leeds City station. So to relieve this you need to create more places in Leeds city centre for passengers to be able to interchange, embark and disembark, in effect dissipating the flow of passengers over a wider area, true you could open additional overground stations on existing rail lines, but these stations can only be opened in areas that are too far away from Leeds City station to be truly effective. This also has another positive of allowing passengers to potentially embark and disembark, closer to their places of work, helping to relieve the pavements and buses of pedestrians and traffic.

But of course how do create these additional stations, with which to disperse passengers over a greater area, but still close enough to main station to be truly effective, within such a densely urban area, without requiring extensive demolition? Well of course you go underground.

Another positive about underground tunnels is that it's easier to segregate local services away from lumbering freight trains, or express trains, within highly dense urban areas without requiring large scale demolition. The issue is even if we manage to expand Leeds station, you'd still have freight trains or express trains, slowing down local trains, making achieving a close operational consistency, of say a local service every 3 - 6 mins almost impossible.

Ah you may say, but overground railways such as Waterloo station to Clapham junction, and the Charing Cross to London Bridge lines manage to achieve such frequencies without running trains through tunnels and even with having both local and express trains to deal with. Both the express trains and local trains especially at speeds below 40mph on these lines, achieve relatively similar acceleration rates and use relatively similar train lengths. Meanwhile in Leeds the difference in the acceleration rate between say a Class 333 and a Class 91 or even an IEP is far more marked, than say a Class 375 and a Class 465. So I would propose additional lines that segregate the local services away from the throat of Leeds station, meaning local services aren't restricted by the slower acceleration rate of the express train in front and can be taken to their local lines without impeding said express train. But how would you go about building these lines without needing to demolish some prime office land? That's where the answer lies within tunnelling.

I hope this answers some peoples questions.
 
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bluenoxid

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My concern is that you are not creating any new transport corridors. Your proposals in Leeds city centre bring 100mph units to a halt three times in 1.5 miles.

For Leeds station itself there are limitations, although impacting a small number of low 8 figure buildings does not justify spending on a ten figure tunnel. There are a small number of options. Firstly it depends on what is decided to do with HS2 and cross pennine routes. It will release 2 platforms dominated by London trains for most of the day. HS3 could also take further trains out of the station.

These options could extend Leeds station over the river towards the south bank. This could include creating a second eastern entrance to Leeds railway station.

Another option is that the decision is made to go upwards rather than downwards, which would be easier to achieve rather than dropping under ths river
 

Clip

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If Crossrail is a necessary investment (of huge amounts of cash) for London, then something like this (which would be much cheaper) is just as essential for the 'Northern Powerhouse'. Leeds has a fairly minimal rail infrastructure compared to other similar sized cities and it is not overambitious to think in this scale. Though an austerity-obsessed post-Brexit government might think so.

But london has 5 times the population of the whole of west yorkshire and has more tube journeys per day than the population of west yorkshire. Im not saying something shouldnt be done its a bit of a poor comparison to be honest.
 

Bald Rick

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My concern is that the plan does not take into account the large areas of demolition required to provide the underground station entrances and exits. Two required for each station, each about 3000sq
 

HSTEd

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3000 square meters is a box 54 metres to a side.
That is enormous.
Two of them would be 6000 square meters.
Which is a box of 78m to a side.

More to the point it is a box 200m long and 30m wide, which is larger than the entire station. Certainly far larger than any existing standalone tube station with a comparable number of passengers passing through. If you were going to that size you could sink a box and have the escalators emptying directly onto the street.

2 single platform faces at 2.5m each, with a couple of extra metres for escalators and standing space, leaves you at something like 10+m, two tracks at three meters each is 16m total.
Even if you add even more margin and up to 20m you are still going to be far under your insane area limit for the entire station, and you could stack the waiting area and ticket hall on the floor above the tracks.
 
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urbophile

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But london has 5 times the population of the whole of west yorkshire and has more tube journeys per day than the population of west yorkshire. Im not saying something shouldnt be done its a bit of a poor comparison to be honest.

I agree everything in London is on a bigger scale. And patterns of commuting/ the way the city works are quite different from West Yorkshire. But spending on transport infrastructure per capita in London vastly exceeds that for anywhere else in the country. I can't recall the figures but I know that the North East (Tyneside etc) gets the least, with Yorkshire not far behind.

The 'Northern Powerhouse' (conveniently sidelined post-Brexit by this government) envisaged the whole of the transpennine belt from Liverpool to Hull (and hopefully stretching north to Newcastle) as a sort of mega-city. Not far off London in population terms and needing swift long-distance transport connections balanced with local transport networks in each of the city hubs.

Leeds's problem is that it doesn't have much of a local rail network besides the commuter lines to destinations well beyond the city limits, and proposals for a (revived) tram network have been knocked back. Roads and hence buses are congested. At least Manchester has Metrolink and Liverpool Merseyrail.
 

quantinghome

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Ok well for a start after looking at Leeds station itself, there doesn't seem much room for expansion

The recently published Yorkshire Hub proposals recommend expanding the existing station footprint to the North into what is currently the car park.https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/480396/Higgins_-_The_Yorkshire_Hub.pdf
This provides up to 22 platforms in the existing station footprint. The existing station arrangement has six through platforms. This can be expanded by joining platforms 13 and 14 and if necessary a more extensive redevelopment could include joining platforms 6 and 7. Surely 7 or 8 through platforms is more than sufficient to handle a comprehensive cross-Leeds network?

without needing to demolish a load of brand new and expensive Office blocks to the south of the station, which could for start tarnish Leeds City centres reputation as being attractive redevelopment land for property developers.

The Yorkshire Hub proposal is to have the HS2 platforms approach from the South, abutting the existing station and creating a common concourse. Some demolition is already planned.

So how do you go about and expand rail services in the area without demolishing some prime property? Well you do what was learnt in London and go underground.

London has gone underground (Crossrail), but it's also widened existing rail corridors on the surface where that's possible (Thameslink). Why not follow the latter option? The properties located immediately to the south of the viaduct to the east of Leeds station, which would need to be demolished to four-track the line, are clearly worth something. But describing them as 'prime' is a bit of a stretch. We're not talking about demolishing the Town Hall and the Corn Exchange.

Leeds rail services, at the moment suffers from some chronic peak time congestion. I think mostly due to the fact that Passengers interchanging between trains and those who want to embark and disembark at Leeds city centre are all concentrated on one point aka Leeds City station. So to relieve this you need to create more places in Leeds city centre for passengers to be able to interchange, embark and disembark, in effect dissipating the flow of passengers over a wider area, true you could open additional overground stations on existing rail lines, but these stations can only be opened in areas that are too far away from Leeds City station to be truly effective.

I'm afraid I don't follow your reasoning. Surely the ideal arrangement for interchange is for it all to be located in a single station? Multiple city centre stations makes it more difficult to interchange and discourages integrated transport. I agree that some other city centre stations may be helpful e.g. at the bus station, but these would complement, not replace the central hub.

But of course how do create these additional stations, with which to disperse passengers over a greater area, but still close enough to main station to be truly effective, within such a densely urban area, without requiring extensive demolition? Well of course you go underground.

Underground construction also requires extensive demolition, particularly if you're building stations for mainline trains.

Another positive about underground tunnels is that it's easier to segregate local services away from lumbering freight trains, or express trains, within highly dense urban areas without requiring large scale demolition. The issue is even if we manage to expand Leeds station, you'd still have freight trains or express trains, slowing down local trains, making achieving a close operational consistency, of say a local service every 3 - 6 mins almost impossible.

...So I would propose additional lines that segregate the local services away from the throat of Leeds station, meaning local services aren't restricted by the slower acceleration rate of the express train in front and can be taken to their local lines without impeding said express train. But how would you go about building these lines without needing to demolish some prime office land? That's where the answer lies within tunnelling.

Again, I don't follow your reasoning. The main conflict between local and express services is not really at the approaches to Leeds station; a train can depart every 3 minutes along each of the six western approach tracks (and there is space on the surface to expand the number of approach tracks if required). The main issue affecting the number of trains that can run is the different stopping patterns of express and local services on the twin-track routes around West Yorkshire. The expresses catch up local services which use the same lines. This is why you can only have an hourly local stopping service from Leeds to Huddersfield, for example. The solution to this is not a tunnel through central Leeds, but four-tracking existing routes or constructing new routes to separate the fast and slow trains. This is what is planned with HS2 and NPR/HS3.

As far as I can see, the HS2 Yorkshire Hub proposals combined with widening the viaduct East of Leeds and construction of additional stations on existing lines will achieve your aims without resorting to tunnelling.
 
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Bantamzen

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One possible problem with connecting platforms 6-7 is that the line would run under part of the footprint of City House. The re-developers won't thank me for saying this, but City House is effectively in the way of at least some additional through capacity, especially combined with additional capacity on the eastern viaduct. Without it in the way, platforms 5 & 6 could easily be run through to connect with what is currently 7 and a second platform face opposite. Of course this would run onto what is currently New Station Street, but with a bit of demolition and a new bridge over part of Bishopgate Street, New Station Street could be re-aligned to accommodate the new tracks and maybe new units built to replace the existing ones.

The loss of the bay platforms could then be resolved with additional tracks to the north of the site where the car park is (a new one could easily be built over it, or at least the existing multi-story expanded). It might require a bit more work at the throat of the western approaches to allow London classic terminators (assuming that there will be any by the end of such a project) to get to the Wakefield line from the lower numbered platforms (I'm thinking platform 1 and new ones built on the car park at around the same length), possibly via a fly-over from the Wakefield / Armley approaches. Of course once Leeds York / Selby is wired, the need for as many western bay capacity might reduce a bit as the current Wharfe / Aire could then be extended to the east of Leeds so this would reduce the stress on the lower numbered platforms.

Any expansion to the south of the site would require at least some demolition, but as already pointed out this would be needed anyway to bring HS2 terminators as close to Leeds City as possible, so if this route is taken it might open up the possibility of another set of through platforms, perhaps long enough to accommodate both classic and HS sets operating through Leeds. With these improvements you could easily increase the through capacity from 6 to 10, even more if 13 & 14 were joined. That should easily be able to cope with demand for at least a few more decades.

Of course all this would cost money, and its often tempting to err towards cheaper options such as tram-trains. However Leeds has struggled and subsequently failed to get even a trolleybus system business case through, so I honestly can’t see a tram-train option ever getting approved into the city centre, let alone on any part of the road network. And options to convert existing lines are quite limited, the Harrogate / Aire lines are soon to receive semi-regular VTEC services, not to mention that the Aire has stretches of 90mph running (which also rules out tram-train on the Wharfe). The Leeds-Bradford via Pudsey might be an option, but this could limit plans that Arriva have to run more fast / semi-fast services from Bradford Interchange beyond Yorkshire, so there would be a lot of resistance to converting that line. Beyond these options, there is little scope for tram-train into Leeds along existing paths, and judging by how the Sheffield / Rotherham project is stalling badly, little desire for these options to be widely used politically or in the rail industry as a whole.
 

Clip

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I agree everything in London is on a bigger scale. And patterns of commuting/ the way the city works are quite different from West Yorkshire. But spending on transport infrastructure per capita in London vastly exceeds that for anywhere else in the country. I can't recall the figures but I know that the North East (Tyneside etc) gets the least, with Yorkshire not far behind.

The 'Northern Powerhouse' (conveniently sidelined post-Brexit by this government) envisaged the whole of the transpennine belt from Liverpool to Hull (and hopefully stretching north to Newcastle) as a sort of mega-city. Not far off London in population terms and needing swift long-distance transport connections balanced with local transport networks in each of the city hubs.

Leeds's problem is that it doesn't have much of a local rail network besides the commuter lines to destinations well beyond the city limits, and proposals for a (revived) tram network have been knocked back. Roads and hence buses are congested. At least Manchester has Metrolink and Liverpool Merseyrail.


Oh I certainly agree with you but hoying a tunnel; through Leeds just isnt worth the money when it really could be spent better in both Yorkshire and the North East.
 

quantinghome

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@Bantamzen. I think there's probably sufficient space within the existing station footprint to accommodate through platforms for any likely future services. Any widening of Leeds station eastern approaches is highly unlikely to need more than 4 tracks (unless we have some very large changes in the country's population distribution). Two through platforms are generally sufficient to service a single approach track. This is the set up at the upgraded Reading station (and also HS2 through stations), and gives enough dwell time for heavily loaded trains to unload and reload while the next train is pulling in on the other platform. Eight through platforms should be plenty, so I don't see there's a need to expand the existing station to the south.

I agree with your assessment of tram-trains. They seem to be an expensive solution searching for a problem (a trait I think is shared by the OP's tunnel proposals). I can see a Metrolink-style takeover of some routes working IF suitable heavy rail alternatives are found. If NPR gets routed via Bradford on new infrastructure (as WYCA would like), then this would open the Leeds-Pudsey-Bradford route up to such a conversion.
 

YorkshireBear

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I think we need to wait and see what HS3 is planning first. Far from being kicked by the post Brexit government I think it is very much still on the Agenda. The annoyance form Northern voters was evident and they see this as a way of addressing that.
 

Blamethrower

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I agree with your assessment of tram-trains. They seem to be an expensive solution searching for a problem (a trait I think is shared by the OP's tunnel proposals). I can see a Metrolink-style takeover of some routes working IF suitable heavy rail alternatives are found. If NPR gets routed via Bradford on new infrastructure (as WYCA would like), then this would open the Leeds-Pudsey-Bradford route up to such a conversion.

Tram trains would remove platform requirements at city station and distribute passengers throughout the centre instead.

YFs proposal you linked to has merits, all that I believe is an enabler for so called hs3 upgrade of transpennine services.

If you add tram trains (airedale, Harrogate lines > Scott Hall and easterly roads) you free up capacity in the city station plus you add 2 (or as many as you want) extra transport corridors.

Lots of options really, all that should be done in my opinion
 
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