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NAO report on Thameslink

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Class377/5

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NAO report into the current status of Thameslink is released at 00:01 tomorrow.

http://www.nao.org.uk/press-release...gress-in-delivering-the-thameslink-programme/

The Department for Transport: Progress in delivering the Thameslink programme

The £6bn Thameslink Programme is aimed at improving rail services on the Thameslink route through London, which links Bedford to Brighton. The Programme includes upgrading stations and running longer trains, more frequently and is due to be completed by 2018.

This study will look at progress so far. We will assess whether the Department for Transport is on track to deliver value for money, the Department’s understanding of the risks to the Programme and the adequacy of its plans to manage those risks.
 
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WatcherZero

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Summary

The Department for Transport has done well so far to contain the infrastructure costs for the Thameslink Programme within the original budget, according to an examination of the progress being made to increase passenger capacity on the rail route through central London. Phase one of the Programme cost £1.704 billion, was completed on time and was £143 million under budget.

However, delays of more than three years in agreeing the contract to buy new trains mean that delivering value for money from the Programme as a whole is at greater risk than the National Audit Office would have expected at this stage.

According to today’s report, there continues to be a robust transport case for the £3.552 billion (at 2006 prices) Programme. Thameslink services have consistently been among the most crowded London routes with passengers amongst the least satisfied with space on trains; and demand is forecast to increase. The Department estimates that the Programme will make net present benefits of £2.9 billion through reduced journey times, reduced overcrowding on trains and quicker interchanges between services.

The Department needs to manage a complex interaction between completing the infrastructure project; buying new trains; and letting a new franchise. Delays to any of these projects can delay significantly or complicate delivery of other parts of the Programme. The award of the estimated £1.6 billion contract to buy new trains is currently delayed by over three years and this has implications for the rest of the programme and also plans for electrification of other parts of the rail network.

The delay raises questions about whether the Department underestimated the scale of the work, time and skills and resources it needed to negotiate a PFI deal of this complexity. And until the contract is let it will not be clear whether delivery of the whole Programme by 2018 is still feasible.

As work begins on phase two of the Programme, the Department needs to ensure it has the necessary capacity and skills to keep it on course alongside other rail projects it manages, such as Crossrail and High Speed 2.
 

Class377/5

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Generally the report is satisfied that things have gone fairly well on the infrastructure side, corned over the new fleet and feels that's beefing of up the team dealing with the project is required.

Note as well the map on page 20 of the full report. First confirmation that the Southeastern services have been massively changed to just Sevenoaks and peak only Maidstone East.
 
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WatcherZero

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It also suggests despite the massive delay in finalising the order (and the Governments spending freeze which affected both the infrastructure and rolling stock as well as several dictating several changes to the contract) that the rolling stock could still be delivered according to the 2010 delivery schedule, which chimes with the reports Siemens have finished two pre-production units for testing. The Government also appears to have made available funds to keep the depot construction on scheduledespite contract not being signed which is the first time ive heard that.
 

Class377/5

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that link is not working for me does anyone have a working one Thx

They changed after release, didn't realize that. Here's the new one.

http://www.nao.org.uk/report/progress-in-delivering-the-thameslink-programme/

It also suggests despite the massive delay in finalising the order (and the Governments spending freeze which affected both the infrastructure and rolling stock as well as several dictating several changes to the contract) that the rolling stock could still be delivered according to the 2010 delivery schedule, which chimes with the reports Siemens have finished two pre-production units for testing. The Government also appears to have made available funds to keep the depot construction on scheduledespite contract not being signed which is the first time ive heard that.

They call it the Advance Work Agreement in the report. The depots are very time sensitive as they are to be used to commission the new units fairly quickly with all the initial testing running prior to entering service in 2015. Hornsey is linked to the ATO testing that will happen on the Hertford Loop with all units being sent there at some point I believe. Irony of that is the current service is limited to six cars max.
 
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A-driver

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They call it the Advance Work Agreement in the report. The depots are very time sensitive as they are to be used to commission the new units fairly quickly with all the initial testing running prior to entering service in 2015. Hornsey is linked to the ATO testing that will happen on the Hertford Loop with all units being sent there at some point I believe. Irony of that is the current service is limited to six cars max.

Hornsey depot won't have anything to do with thameslink. The new depot being built next door on the old coronation sidings will be for the Siemens stock.

I wouldn't say its ironic that the 12 car units will be tested on the Hertford line as they won't be stopping at stations. They basically just have a few miles of track between stapleford and Bragbury to run up and down on.

The unit being tested will be kept at Hertford north sidings which have been extended for 12 cars.
 

swt_passenger

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Hornsey depot won't have anything to do with thameslink. The new depot being built next door on the old coronation sidings will be for the Siemens stock...

The new depot is still referred to as being at Hornsey - I think you are splitting hairs...
 

dysonsphere

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They don't appear to think that much of the Department for Transport. Reading the part on the new trains seems a bit of a shambles.

Thx Class377/5 for the new link.
 

swt_passenger

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Paragraph 3.16/7 and the accompanying table do attempt to summarise the position with the three tranches of 'extra' rolling stock. Also points out that they're not really sure where it will eventually end up...
 

Class377/5

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Hornsey depot won't have anything to do with thameslink. The new depot being built next door on the old coronation sidings will be for the Siemens stock.

I wouldn't say its ironic that the 12 car units will be tested on the Hertford line as they won't be stopping at stations. They basically just have a few miles of track between stapleford and Bragbury to run up and down on.

The unit being tested will be kept at Hertford north sidings which have been extended for 12 cars.

Actually it will, all FCC fleet staff will transfer over to Siemens unless they is a major change from announced policy and the GN is spilt from the rest of the TSGN franchise come 2020's.

Hornsey will be unified fleet depot not spilt in two like you suggest unless there been a change in policy in the last few weeks.

Note that the ATO testing will be done in the day with the passenger traffic using the now bi directional loop infrastructure in the Hertford area starting with that yellow 313. Not sure if its live yet but planned to be around now.

They don't appear to think that much of the Department for Transport. Reading the part on the new trains seems a bit of a shambles.

Thx Class377/5 for the new link.

Sorry for not updating the link sooner.

I look forward to reading about the new trains once the NAO can fully look into the issue.

Paragraph 3.16/7 and the accompanying table do attempt to summarise the position with the three tranches of 'extra' rolling stock. Also points out that they're not really sure where it will eventually end up...

The three extra lots of rolling stock? You mean the 377/6 which already have a role to play and the same applies for the 377/7 order too (which you'll note has been ordered to allow rolling stock to be cascaded to electrification schemes according to the report).

The 116 carriages (and the possible follow on order of 140) is a short term Thameslink re-enforcement to allow the 319s to go elsewhere but once they are spare after the introduction of the 700 fleet, there will be some trains need for TPE north. DfT has already stated they may go to TPE or MML once wires are up.
 
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swt_passenger

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The 116 carriages (and the possible follow on order of 140) is a short term Thameslink re-enforcement to allow the 319s to go elsewhere but once they are spare after the introduction of the 700 fleet, there will be some trains need for TPE north. DfT has already stated they may go to TPE or MML once wires are up.

My post was based on the summary given in the first sentence of para 3.17 - which presumably could have included such general knowledge but didn't.

Did you read it before reacting?
 

Class377/5

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My post was based on the summary given in the first sentence of para 3.17 - which presumably could have included such general knowledge but didn't.

Did you read it before reacting?

It was more a question of which three you were on about then I expanded that to include what the DfT have stated so far on the matter. It did seem although the general thinking I outlined had been missed in the NAO report.

And yes I did read before posting. However there is no doubt where the first two orders (377/6 & /7s) are going to remain, where as your post suggested they didn't actually know where all three orders were destined to go.

I wanted to ensure that we were talking about the same thing as misunderstanding can occur.
 

A-driver

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Actually it will, all FCC fleet staff will transfer over to Siemens unless they is a major change from announced policy and the GN is spilt from the rest of the TSGN franchise come 2020's.

Hornsey will be unified fleet depot not spilt in two like you suggest unless there been a change in policy in the last few weeks.

Note that the ATO testing will be done in the day with the passenger traffic using the now bi directional loop infrastructure in the Hertford area starting with that yellow 313. Not sure if its live yet but planned to be around now.


Class377/5: with respect you are not in possession of all the facts you think you are!

Hornsey will remain as 2 depots at the moment. Staff from the current depot will not be automatically transferred at this stage. Hornsey will still have the rest of the fleet (313 & 365) to maintain.

Also, at present the 313 unit at Hertford won't be used for ATO testing but for in cab signalling tests. Plans for ATO testing are for when the trains arrive. ATO and in cab signalling are very different things. I wouldn't imagine it would be easy to fit ATO to a 313 unit.

As I say, the test track is only a few miles of line from stapleford to Bragbury. It will use the down line as the up line has been re-signalled to allow bi-di running from Hertford south through to Langley with other crossover points at mole wood and Bragbury road.

We have just had briefs on the new signalling and how the testing will effect is aswell as the plans for hornsey plus I have been reading the notice cases at hornsey when I have been there and from those the staffing arrangements for the new depot is yet to be finalised.

And the new signalling is now live but the test track isn't open yet. The final crossover at molewood was laid last weekend (all though I'm not sure if Hertford south points are in yet-havnt noticed when driving over there to be honest).
 

Class377/5

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Class377/5: with respect you are not in possession of all the facts you think you are!

Hornsey will remain as 2 depots at the moment. Staff from the current depot will not be automatically transferred at this stage. Hornsey will still have the rest of the fleet (313 & 365) to maintain.

Also, at present the 313 unit at Hertford won't be used for ATO testing but for in cab signalling tests. Plans for ATO testing are for when the trains arrive. ATO and in cab signalling are very different things. I wouldn't imagine it would be easy to fit ATO to a 313 unit.

As I say, the test track is only a few miles of line from stapleford to Bragbury. It will use the down line as the up line has been re-signalled to allow bi-di running from Hertford south through to Langley with other crossover points at mole wood and Bragbury road.

We have just had briefs on the new signalling and how the testing will effect is aswell as the plans for hornsey plus I have been reading the notice cases at hornsey when I have been there and from those the staffing arrangements for the new depot is yet to be finalised.

And the new signalling is now live but the test track isn't open yet. The final crossover at molewood was laid last weekend (all though I'm not sure if Hertford south points are in yet-havnt noticed when driving over there to be honest).

I was told that (from person working on TLP) that it was to be a joined depot. But as you say at the moment, I wasn't actually suggesting that this is happening now but in the future. But as we both know things can and do change. But as you say things aren't finalised.

I was under the impression the ATO was a layer of the in cab signaling equipment for Thameslink according to the briefings I've received. There could be confusion with the role of HNIF and the separate phases compared to the general talk I had which wasn't a proper briefing. Or I may have misunderstood.

But if you've received more up to date briefings than myself I will yield to that as mine have been less proper briefings but from conversations which aren't so formal.
 

A-driver

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I was told that (from person working on TLP) that it was to be a joined depot. But as you say at the moment, I wasn't actually suggesting that this is happening now but in the future. But as we both know things can and do change. But as you say things aren't finalised.

I was under the impression the ATO was a layer of the in cab signaling equipment for Thameslink according to the briefings I've received. There could be confusion with the role of HNIF and the separate phases compared to the general talk I had which wasn't a proper briefing. Or I may have misunderstood.

But if you've received more up to date briefings than myself I will yield to that as mine have been less proper briefings but from conversations which aren't so formal.

We can both put forward what we have heard through briefings and more likely mess room gossip but neither of us actually work for the TLP and so neither of us can present anything as 'fact' in the way you have been. That is more my point.
 

Class377/5

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We can both put forward what we have heard through briefings and more likely mess room gossip but neither of us actually work for the TLP and so neither of us can present anything as 'fact' in the way you have been. That is more my point.

My info comes from the TLP team directly. But your right, neither of use are apart of that team.
 

A-driver

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My info comes from the TLP team directly. But your right, neither of use are apart of that team.

So does a lot if info people can get from looking at the website though! I'd just be cautious presenting 2nd hand info as fact.
 

Class377/5

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So does a lot if info people can get from looking at the website though! I'd just be cautious presenting 2nd hand info as fact.

Who said it was the website. I'm talking about the team actually working on it. But I agree with your point.
 

Aictos

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To answer A-Driver's question about the crossover at Hertford South, I don't think it's been installed yet - last weekend the contractors were finishing off Molewood crossover.

I've no idea when NWR will actually get round to finishing off the crossover south of Hertford but I guess they're in no rush as they still have to sort out the DOO equipment at the north end of Platform 1 - seeing as they've got a great big block of concrete at the end of the platform.

However I do hope before they even consider stabling anything at Hertford that they improve the security of the yard especially if they want to stable a 700 there but I doubt it....
 

A-driver

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Went round there earlier today-the points are only half in south of Hertford. The DOO equipment is in at watton but not yet at Hertford-shouldn't take long to stick a mirror in anyway.

Is security a problem at Hertford sidings? I can't say I have ever seen units come off there with graffiti on really?
 

Aictos

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Went round there earlier today-the points are only half in south of Hertford. The DOO equipment is in at watton but not yet at Hertford-shouldn't take long to stick a mirror in anyway.

Is security a problem at Hertford sidings? I can't say I have ever seen units come off there with graffiti on really?

Security is a problem at Hertford where graffiti is concerned, I'm not saying every train in there gets attacked but there's been plenty of trains since 2006 which have been done both in the yard and in the down siding at least to warrant caution about stabling there.

Thing is there isn't a shunter or staff presence for the yard, any control over the yard that local staff did have went out when it got resignalled and SDC rather abruptly decided they knew what was best and took over direct control rather then allow local staff with their local knowledge to keep responsibility for the yard.

In all, FCC know trains can and do get attacked there but like everything else on the railway any security improvements come down to funding.
 

A-driver

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Fair enough-the down siding has been closed for the last year anyway and isn't opening again in the near future.

I have to say though I have never had problems with graffiti in the up roads and have taken a fair few units out of there but if you say it is a problem then I won't argue.
 

Aictos

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Fair enough-the down siding has been closed for the last year anyway and isn't opening again in the near future.

I have to say though I have never had problems with graffiti in the up roads and have taken a fair few units out of there but if you say it is a problem then I won't argue.

You can easily ask the other guys and they will verify what I say, although thankfully I've not been aware of any recently.

As to the down siding, I thought we were going to be using it once these track panels stored there have been put into place, I might be wrong though on that :(
 

A-driver

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You can easily ask the other guys and they will verify what I say, although thankfully I've not been aware of any recently.

As to the down siding, I thought we were going to be using it once these track panels stored there have been put into place, I might be wrong though on that :(

The down siding was originally closed as the union refused to use it anymore as the walkway became so overgrown and unkept that it was dangerous. Because they had closed it network rail used it for storage but as far as I can see they still havnt replaced the walkway like they have with the nice shiny new proper footpath to the up yard.
 

Aictos

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The down siding was originally closed as the union refused to use it anymore as the walkway became so overgrown and unkept that it was dangerous. Because they had closed it network rail used it for storage but as far as I can see they still havnt replaced the walkway like they have with the nice shiny new proper footpath to the up yard.

Shame NWR didn't do a nice new foot path for both yard and down siding at the same time, surely it would have made sense?

Anyway, seems the reason why there's white lights on the bay buffers is because a driver could come round the corner and see two sets of red lights and SPAD, Don't ask me why, how etc... But that's what us local staff have been told after a dozen drivers reported these lights as they should be red on the buffers unless they're right next to a running line in which case I think they should be white?

Thing is though going back to that siding, there was no need for it to get ino that condition :(
 

A-driver

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The white lights on buffers are the new group standards which is why they were replaced. They are used to indicate that white lights should be displayed on the opposite end of the train when stabled-so trains stabled in the bay must display white lights London end.

The down siding was only used to shunt coaches out if the way to allow freight trains to pass through and the diagrammed shunts were rarely done anyway as the freight normally got an earlier path.
 

Aictos

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The white lights on buffers are the new group standards which is why they were replaced. They are used to indicate that white lights should be displayed on the opposite end of the train when stabled-so trains stabled in the bay must display white lights London end.

The down siding was only used to shunt coaches out if the way to allow freight trains to pass through and the diagrammed shunts were rarely done anyway as the freight normally got an earlier path.

When did these new group standards come in?

The latest ones I find are dated Dec 2012 and clearly state:

Railway Group Standard
GK/RT0045
Issue Three
Date December 2012 and Layout of Signals
Lineside Signals, Indicators 2.5.3 Buffer stop that is indicated to the driver (including ERTMS level 2 operated lines)

2.5.3.4
Buffer stop lights, where provided, shall comply with all of the following:
a) Display two steady signal red lights, except in sidings at locations where provision of red buffer stop lights would mislead drivers or affect the readability of signals on adjacent lines. In this case the buffer stop lights shall display two steady white lights.

So as far as I'm concerned , these white lights are wrong as they should be red not white but I like to see if you could kindly provide a more up to date copy of the provided group standards please.
 
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A-driver

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I have no idea where group standards are found but when we complained about the white lights due to the brightness at night we were told it had to be white lights due to group standards changing.

It seems to be the excuse used when they get stuff wrong. Banner repeaters are also causing issues due to 'group standards' as new ones can't show 'off' when a diverging route is set even when you can see the cleared signal as you now need a split banner for that. So a single banner remains 'on' even once the signal is cleared.
 

edwin_m

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All the Group Standards are freely available at www.rgsonline.co.uk and this confirms 0045 issue 3 is current.

I don't know the layout at Hertford, but is this a location where red lights could cause confusion etc as per the clause quoted?
 
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