Narberth Tunnel

[Gareth Marston]

Compare and contrast

Face Saving for the Pembrokeshire Tory's from DfT

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...assengers-in-wales-the-midlands-and-the-north

direct services from Pembroke Dock to London via Carmarthen on new, state of the art Intercity Express trains

with why Bi-Modes are great from Failing Grayling

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busine...rt-secretary-chris-grayling-explains-13356183

but without the needless disruption of engineering works.

 

[A0wen]

Well hang on a sec - nobody who actually knows the answer has confirmed whether or not Narbeth tunnel is a problem for the 800s - so until that it's a moot point.

Either way, IF works are needed to make it passable for the 800s it will be less than needed IF it were to be electrified as well.

And there's little doubt that deploying bi-modes is far less disruptive than closing sections of track whilst OHL is deployed.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well hang on a sec - nobody who actually knows the answer has confirmed whether or not Narbeth tunnel is a problem for the 800s - so until that it's a moot point.

Either way, IF works are needed to make it passable for the 800s it will be less than needed IF it were to be electrified as well.

And there's little doubt that deploying bi-modes is far less disruptive than closing sections of track whilst OHL is deployed.

err Narbeth Tunnel was why DfT had penciled in withdrawl of through services from Pembroke Dock..........

 

[berneyarms]

Any chance you could include the link to where those quotes are coming from please?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Any chance you could include the link to where those quotes are coming from please?

sorry done now

 

[berneyarms]

Thanks!

My clairvoyant skills weren't up to scratch lol!

 

[allaction]

Hi - for cross-referencing purposes, the correct spelling is Narberth, rather than Narbeth.

99.375% (to three decimal places) of people think I'm a pedant!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

So the default might be "reverse at Tenby" ...

Any views on whether this is sensible from a traffic generation point of view . a shuttle connection to and from there to "the Dock"

And before some one screams at me - "no units" - the WG and DfT can find one - and certainly pay for one.

Time to start a campaign down there - muchas Gerry Fiennes said of Beeching plans for the West Country , "the pitchforks came out" etc etc

 

[Starmill]

Presumably the idea is for more weekday services to Carmarthen then, and the start of some to Pembrokeshire?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Indeed (having calmed down a little !) , more FGW services to Carmarthen (a sensible place to turn biggish trains around) would be a compromise , but with a recast and and well resourced - (prays fervently) West Wales train plan.

Benefit in extra capacity Carmarthen - Llanelli - Swansea , and beyond - "M4" strategy.

 

[adrock1976]

If the Hitachi trains are a problem for the tunnel at Narberth, could an alternative be to have the train run to Fishguard Harbour instead?

This would restore the link with the Rosslare ferry, and would provide friendlier connections with Cardiff and points east. The present service appears to be fragmented, with long waits at either Carmarthen and Swansea.

PS I posted this in the "Cardiff and Swansea" thread, but I think it has been lost amongst the noise there so to speak.

 

[jimm]

If the Hitachi trains are a problem for the tunnel at Narberth, could an alternative be to have the train run to Fishguard Harbour instead?

This would restore the link with the Rosslare ferry, and would provide friendlier connections with Cardiff and points east. The present service appears to be fragmented, with long waits at either Carmarthen and Swansea.

PS I posted this in the "Cardiff and Swansea" thread, but I think it has been lost amongst the noise there so to speak.

No, because the fundamental point of the HST services at the moment is to provide added capacity for summer Saturday bucket and spade traffic to Tenby, which ATW lacks the resources to provide with its current fleet.

If ATW or GWR thought Fishguard ferry traffic was worth the effort these days, they would provide a better service, but for a while now people who want to get to Ireland have tended to fly and nothing's going to change that.

 

[Envoy]

Irish Ferries sail from Pembroke Dock to Rosslare so in the unlikely event that that the Hitachi trains can get through the tunnel, perhaps they could be timed to drop off/ pick up passengers from the ferry? Thus, combined with Tenby, you might get a more viable passenger flow? Of course, our railways might not wish to promote the Irish ferry - which is in competition with the Stena service on the Fishguard route.

http://www.irishferries.com/ie-en/routes-and-times/rosslare-pembroke/

Enjoy the ease of travelling between Ireland and Britain on our Rosslare/ Pembroke route. Easy 30 minute check in; Bring as much luggage as you can carry

It is appalling that the main seaside resort in Pembrokeshire (Tenby) has only one train every other hour. Perhaps it would be better to terminate long distance trains at Carmarthen and then have the 3 Pembrokeshire branches (Pembroke Dock / Milford Haven & Fishguard) served by local trains - possibly with some spitting at Whitland? If long distance trains from say London or Manchester terminated at Carmarthen, then perhaps some of them could run as express services west of Cardiff as at present, it is far quicker to drive between Carmarthen & Cardiff than take the train. A major Park & Ride also needs to be established near the M4 in the north Swansea area in order to get people off the M4 and onto the trains. The M4 at Port Talbot is rapidly turning into another Newport!

 

[DarloRich]

Compare and contrast

Face Saving for the Pembrokeshire Tory's from DfT

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...assengers-in-wales-the-midlands-and-the-north



with why Bi-Modes are great from Failing Grayling

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busine...rt-secretary-chris-grayling-explains-13356183

surely if you are trying to sugar coat the ordure works to "gauge enhance" this tunnel and allow the bi modes to run will be signed off pdq.

( i don't know this area so i stand by for the barrage of abuse for missing the fact that the tunnel is built through sand and glass or some such )

 

[Tio Terry]

I don't know the area but a couple of questions.

Is this tunnel a dual track tunnel and if it is could it be single tracked with the track moved towards the centre of the tunnel to gain the necessary clearance?

Would the train frequency allow for a section of single line?

 

[Envoy]

The tunnel in question is single track. Click this link and you can see it:> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7969072,-4.7253672,379m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

 

[Gareth Marston]

Bottom line is even if NR come up with a plan that doesn't cost the crown jewells you would have to close the entire Pembroke Dock to Whitland branch for weeks if it months. And of course the magic IEP train avoids all the hassle of line closures for upgrades according to Daft....................

This is of course well known and why the initial IEP deployment plan cut out the Summer Pembroke Dock trains in the first place.

 

[IanXC]

Possible repeat of the Farnsworth project?!

 

[DarloRich]

Possible repeat of the Farnsworth project?!

that would be the obvious option - IF the government want to keep the woolly backs sweet.

 

[bangor-toad]

I don't know the area so this may be impossible but...

Rather than go to the expense of filling and reboring the tunnel, couldn't the entire thing be dug out into a large cutting?
The tunnel seems short, the ground doesn't seem ridiculously high above the track and there's not too much around. There seems to be property nearby (sorry!) and a road crosses the tunnel which could go on a simple bridge.

Earthworks are now simple and cheap and may be easier to contemplate than tunnelling.

I've never been there so this may be impractical but it's perhaps something to consider?
Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[Gareth Marston]

I don't know the area so this may be impossible but...

Rather than go to the expense of filling and reboring the tunnel, couldn't the entire thing be dug out into a large cutting?
The tunnel seems short, the ground doesn't seem ridiculously high above the track and there's not too much around. There seems to be property nearby (sorry!) and a road crosses the tunnel which could go on a simple bridge.

Earthworks are now simple and cheap and may be easier to contemplate than tunnelling.

I've never been there so this may be impractical but it's perhaps something to consider?
Cheers,
Mr Toad

How long did you say you wanted the Pembroke Dock branch closed for?

 

[DarloRich]

How long did you say you wanted the Pembroke Dock branch closed for?

although linked to the above thread the answer is as long as it takes to sort out the tunnel and deliver a good news story about new trains serving more locations.

No one, beyond the unimportant ( in PR terms) users, will care if the line was shut for 6 months

 

[daikilo]

I don't know the area so this may be impossible but...

Rather than go to the expense of filling and reboring the tunnel, couldn't the entire thing be dug out into a large cutting?
The tunnel seems short, the ground doesn't seem ridiculously high above the track and there's not too much around. There seems to be property nearby (sorry!) and a road crosses the tunnel which could go on a simple bridge.

Earthworks are now simple and cheap and may be easier to contemplate than tunnelling.

I've never been there so this may be impractical but it's perhaps something to consider?
Cheers,
Mr Toad

For an IEP a few days per summer, unlikely!

 

[gallafent]

So the default might be "reverse at Tenby

Unless I misunderstand, no, since Narberth is between Whitland and Tenby, so to reach Tenby the Narberth tunnel must be traversed!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Unless I misunderstand, no, since Narberth is between Whitland and Tenby, so to reach Tenby the Narberth tunnel must be traversed!

Of course - "slaps head" - must get out more towards West Wales.......

 

[edwin_m]

Of course - "slaps head" - must get out more towards West Wales.......

You won't be able to ... the line will be closed for rebuilding the tunnel.

 

[Tio Terry]

The tunnel in question is single track. Click this link and you can see it:> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7969072,-4.7253672,379m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

Thanks. That's finished my idea!

 

[furnessvale]

How long did you say you wanted the Pembroke Dock branch closed for?

I don't know the tunnel in question, but if opening out is an option, the majority of the overburden would be removed from above, not affecting the railway below until the last stage.

 

[snowball]

Checking an online map I see a B road crosses it at skew. Probably could not plausibly be diverted to cross the railway away from the tunnel. Would need to be replaced by a bridge on part of the site of the tunnel.

 

[snowball]

Checking an online map I see a B road crosses it at skew (mentioned by bangor-toad). Probably could not plausibly be diverted to cross the railway away from the tunnel. Would need to be replaced by a bridge on part of the site of the tunnel.