Narberth Tunnel

[allaction]

I have written to my local West Carmarthenshire and South Pembrokeshire MP Simon Hart (Conservative) asking if he knows Network Rail’s start date for the Narberth Tunnel works, and will let you all know.

Exciting times!

 

[Gareth Marston]

I have written to my local West Carmarthenshire and South Pembrokeshire MP Simon Hart (Conservative) asking if he knows Network Rail’s start date for the Narberth Tunnel works, and will let you all know.

Exciting times!

That will cause waves this commitment of yours how's it's progressing?

 

[allaction]

Network Rail have cleared the line for IET workings: there's some minor work to do in two locations (neither of which is the Narberth tunnel), but they have been able to issue the gauging certificate.

 

[JN114]

Network Rail have cleared the line for IET workings: there's some minor work to do in two locations (neither of which is the Narberth tunnel), but they have been able to issue the gauging certificate.

Oh look, they fit through Narberth Tunnel, what a surprise...

 

[swt_passenger]

Oh look, they fit through Narberth Tunnel, what a surprise...

Just scanned through this thread and it really does read as nothing much but impatience. Inventing a problem, while NR just get on with normal business.

 

[XDM]

- the issue at Narberth is the curvature of the tunnel. It is part of a tight horseshoe curve and I doubt the Victorians were thinking about accommodating the protruding ends of 26m coaches when they were building it.

It's this sort of comment, interesting though it is, that drove the thread on to 5 pages.
His doubt about the Victorian engineers' future proofing is proved wrong with Network Rail's Narbeth approval. Thank goodness.

 

[Gareth Marston]

So what are we saying here?

Problems with Narberth tunnel were a Minstry of Disinformation exercise by DfT to justify cutting IC services to Pemroke Dock?

 

[berneyarms]

So what are we saying here?

Problems with Narberth tunnel were a Minstry of Disinformation exercise by DfT to justify cutting IC services to Pemroke Dock?

Did DfT ever say they couldn’t use the tunnel?

You started the thread Gareth by questioning whether they could?

Perhaps it was all a misunderstanding on your part and we have had 5 pointless pages of discussion for nothing?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Did DfT ever say they couldn’t use the tunnel?

You started the thread Gareth by questioning whether they could?

Perhaps it was all a misunderstanding on your part and we have had 5 pointless pages of discussion for nothing?

I get RAIL and Modern Railways and occasionally Today's aRailways plus I'm on this forum so take your pick as to initial source.......

 

[berneyarms]

I get RAIL and Modern Railways and occasionally Today's aRailways plus I'm on this forum so take your pick as to initial source.......

I was being slightly facetious Gareth - hence the smile.

But who actually questioned the ability to fit into the tunnel?

It does seem to have been a hooha over nothing from what we learn today?

 

[allaction]

I’m having difficulty pasting the link here (sorry), but the Tenby Railway Station Page on Wikipedia has a link (number 11) to an article from 2009 noting the problem.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Turns out it was Railnews
https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/business/2009/05/08-super-expresses.html

 

[Rhydgaled]

So what are we saying here?

Problems with Narberth tunnel were a Minstry of Disinformation exercise by DfT to justify cutting IC services to Pemroke Dock?

That's a very interesting theory. However, I cannot recall the DfT ever claiming that there was a problem with Narberth tunnel; the DfT just decided to cut the IC service to Pembroke Dock and gave no reason. A good number of pepole then tried to guess the reason and assumed the tunnel was it.

If the DfT are really that devious, perhaps they planned to cut the Pembroke Dock service just so that they could reinstate them as a 'good news story' after scrapping electrification to Swansea. On the other hand, they could have just forgotten about the Pembroke Dock service when specifying the route clearance list for IEP and then jumped to the same (incorrect) conclusion as the rest of us when specifying the GWR direct award franchise.

But who actually questioned the ability to fit into the tunnel?

It does seem to have been a hooha over nothing from what we learn today?

I’m having difficulty pasting the link here (sorry), but the Tenby Railway Station Page on Wikipedia has a link (number 11) to an article from 2009 noting the problem.

Here's the article. The relevant bit is this:

Philip Rees, who was chief civil engineer at British Rail’s Western Region when the first IC125s were introduced, said: “They need to look at it very carefully indeed. The overthrow in the middle and the overhang at the ends is bound to be more than the present vehicles. If they’re not careful, they’re going to have a lot of work on their hands.

“West of Plymouth, it’s a very curved route. It’s tight-ish on the Royal Albert Bridge.”

Summer Saturday trains from London still bring crowds of holidaymakers to Pembroke-shire, but modifying the cur-ved single-track tunnel at Narberth for Super Express could be prohibitively expensive. Mr Rees recalled a 21-metre coach striking the tunnel arch in steam days after renewed track was slightly misaligned. He doubted whether 26-metre coaches would pass through.

That Philip Rees quote regarding the coach striking the tunnel is the nearest to anything official I have read that suggested an IEP train would not fit through the tunnel. A chief civil engineer should know a thing or two about railways, and putting two and two together when the DfT released the map that showed no IEP west of Carmarthen it wasn't too big a stretch of the imagination to assume that the tunnel was going to be a problem.

If the class 800s in fact can get through the tunnel without engineering work, then it seems the DfT had simply decided they didn't want through trains between London and Pembroke Dock anymore regardless of whether there new trains would fit (they didn't even bother checking if they would fit, it seems).

 

[berneyarms]

Well it appears to be a theory that has finished with a good ending by the sound of things mercifully.

 

[Rhydgaled]

London to Pembroke Dock services are due to start for this year this Saturday; presumably still with IC125s for now despite the latest news. A few years back, about half the IC125 servces were cancelled west of Carmarthen for the first few weekeds because FirstGWR forgot to refresh the traincrew route knowledge. Does anyone know if they have remembered this year or is there a high risk of part-cancellations again?

Also, the Frequently Requested Diagrams Thread doesn't show the class 800 diagrams, so can anyone tell me whether the 09:30 Carmarthen-Paddington on Saturdays is an 800 yet or still an IC125?

Well it appears to be a theory that has finished with a good ending by the sound of things mercifully.

Certainly a much happier ending than throwing money at that tunnel so that 800s can get to Tenby.

 

[jimm]

Well it appears to be a theory that has finished with a good ending by the sound of things mercifully.

Depends on what you mean by a good ending.

I suspect GWR would far rather see the rolling stock and crews needed to operate interminable summer Saturday trips into West Wales and back to handle largely local bucket-and-spade traffic being put to work elsewhere on its core services, rather than doing something that should be the Wales franchisee's job.

If they are instructed by the DfT in the next direct award franchise to continue to run to Tenby and Pembroke Dock, GWR will just have to get on and do it, but I imagine there may be some frank exchanges of views about it during negotiations - not least because the IEP fleet was presumably not planned to cover these services, which tie up a set for 5 hours + getting from Swansea to Pembroke Dock and back.

Hopefully there are still some pennies in Mr Grayling's pork barrel to foot the bill.

 

[berneyarms]

Depends on what you mean by a good ending.

I suspect GWR would far rather see the rolling stock and crews needed to operate interminable summer Saturday trips into West Wales and back to handle largely local bucket-and-spade traffic being put to work elsewhere on its core services, rather than doing something that should be the Wales franchisee's job.

If they are instructed by the DfT in the next direct award franchise to continue to run to Tenby and Pembroke Dock, GWR will just have to get on and do it, but I imagine there may be some frank exchanges of views about it during negotiations - not least because the IEP fleet was presumably not planned to cover these services, which tie up a set for 5 hours + getting from Swansea to Pembroke Dock and back.

Hopefully there are still some pennies in Mr Grayling's pork barrel to foot the bill.

As per the post directly before yours - no expense required on the tunnel either way.

We will wait and see what the new W & B franchise throws up in terms of rolliing stock.

 

[class26]

Depends on what you mean by a good ending.

I suspect GWR would far rather see the rolling stock and crews needed to operate interminable summer Saturday trips into West Wales and back to handle largely local bucket-and-spade traffic being put to work elsewhere on its core services, rather than doing something that should be the Wales franchisee's job.

If they are instructed by the DfT in the next direct award franchise to continue to run to Tenby and Pembroke Dock, GWR will just have to get on and do it, but I imagine there may be some frank exchanges of views about it during negotiations - not least because the IEP fleet was presumably not planned to cover these services, which tie up a set for 5 hours + getting from Swansea to Pembroke Dock and back.

Hopefully there are still some pennies in Mr Grayling's pork barrel to foot the bill.

Yes. but aren`t these services on Saturday`s only when there is a less intensive service generally on the main line ?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Did we all notice the deafening silence from Welsh Government?

IEP not going to Pemroke Dock - apathy.
Torys wanting it restored- apathy.
Turns out the tunnel doesn't need enlarging - Any comment?

 

[JN114]

Yet another significant infrastructure hurdle has turned out to be an enormous red herring - given the spec for the trains stipulated they needed to be able to go anywhere a MkIII coach can, despite the 26m coaches, the confirmation of them being ok through Narberth is of no surprise to me, and I’ve been saying as much since last November.

They’ve gone so far as to get them a route clearance certificate for the branch.

Let’s see what happens shall we.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Depends on what you mean by a good ending.

I suspect GWR would far rather see the rolling stock and crews needed to operate interminable summer Saturday trips into West Wales and back to handle largely local bucket-and-spade traffic being put to work elsewhere on its core services, rather than doing something that should be the Wales franchisee's job.

If they are instructed by the DfT in the next direct award franchise to continue to run to Tenby and Pembroke Dock, GWR will just have to get on and do it, but I imagine there may be some frank exchanges of views about it during negotiations - not least because the IEP fleet was presumably not planned to cover these services, which tie up a set for 5 hours + getting from Swansea to Pembroke Dock and back.

Hopefully there are still some pennies in Mr Grayling's pork barrel to foot the bill.

IETs to Pembroke Dock next year has been agreed for some time, pending the confirmation of gauge clearance.

 

[jimm]

It's this sort of comment, interesting though it is, that drove the thread on to 5 pages.
His doubt about the Victorian engineers' future proofing is proved wrong with Network Rail's Narbeth approval. Thank goodness.

I will have all the doubts I like about Victorian engineers' future-proofing. Chipping Campden tunnel on the Cotswold Line was built by Brunel for broad gauge. Some people assume that as a result it is able to accommodate just about anything on wheels on the modern railway - unfortunately so unproof against the future was it that within 50 years or so of its completion the GWR had to employ a small army of men to strengthen the lining with multiple courses of extra bricks, considerably reducing the clearances inside. Since then it has needed more remedial attention on at least two occasions, due to further ground movement distorting the brickwork at one end.

The net result of all that is that the tunnel has been reduced to a pretty bog standard W6 gauge clearance. An IET will still fit, but if the GWR engineers had decided they needed a couple more courses of brick reinforcement, it could have been a different story.

Yes. but aren`t these services on Saturday`s only when there is a less intensive service generally on the main line ?

That rather depends on what the revised timetables look like next summer - and GWR can and does earn much more money running trains between London and the West Country on summer Saturdays than it ever will from running between Swansea and Pembroke Dock, where lots of the fares paid end up with the Wales franchise. GWR would probably far rather send all the trains it has available on those days in the direction of Exeter and collect all the revenue.

In the time the round trip from Swansea to Pembroke Dock and back takes, an HST can near enough do Paddington to Paignton and back again. Free of political interference, I'm sure that's where GWR would far rather send an IET.

Let's not kid ourselves what this all about - providing a fig leaf for Mr Grayling's cancellation of Cardiff-Swansea electrification. Had he not taken that decision, he wouldn't have given summer Saturday GWR trains to Tenby a second thought.

And no doubt there will be howls of outrage on here next summer if GWR dares to send a five-car 800 to Tenby instead of a nine-coach proper express train...

Yet another significant infrastructure hurdle has turned out to be an enormous red herring - given the spec for the trains stipulated they needed to be able to go anywhere a MkIII coach can, despite the 26m coaches, the confirmation of them being ok through Narberth is of no surprise to me, and I’ve been saying as much since last November.

"Stipulated"? In which case you might just as well have stuck to the tried and tested 23m and saved yourself any potential problems in the first place. Going to 26m appears to be generally accepted as pushing the envelope to the limit of what can be achieved in terms of coach length on UK infrastructure - see the Railnews article extract above - and in that situation there were always likely to be some locations where there would be issues.

If Narberth isn't one of them, great, but in order for 80x trains to run on both the GW and East Coast routes, money has been spent on adjustments at various places where a 23m Mk3 has no problems - albeit not on the scale that might have been suggested by some of the more over-the-top threads here in recent years.

 

[allaction]

Good to see a HST here at Tenby - decent loading too

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

In the time the round trip from Swansea to Pembroke Dock and back takes, an HST canAnd no doubt there will be howls of outrage on here next summer if GWR dares to send a five-car 800 to Tenby instead of a nine-coach proper express train...

Better get the earplugs ready then. Only 5-car IETs will run west of Swansea due to the length of Carmarthen platforms and the position of the starting signals. Only 5-car stop boards are being provided on the Pembroke branch. No 9 or 10 car formations to Tenby for the foreseeable.

 

[allaction]

I’ve been on the full HST sets on both occasions during the last three weeks - the photo in my earlier post was taken of the 1535 from Tenby, which started at Pembroke Dock on Saturday 16 June.

 

[Rhydgaled]

no doubt there will be howls of outrage on here next summer if GWR dares to send a five-car 800 to Tenby instead of a nine-coach proper express train...

Although the IC125 is sometimes fairly busy to Tenby, I'm not sure all 8 carriages are needed. I could be wrong but from my (quite limited) observations I formed the opinion that what Tenby needs (in summer) is four or five 23m coaches on every train to/from Carmarthen (and beyond) rather than 8x23m on two services and 2x20m on the rest. In that respect, a 5-car 800 with 26m vehicles will probably be fine; my howls of outrage will be directed at the fact that, due to coming from busy London, the westbound will in all likelyhood involve a pair of non-gangwayed units being uncoupled while in passenger service.

Assuming the 800s have in fact been cleared now; is there any chance they will start to appear this summer or can I continue to enjoy IC125s on the service for the rest of this year? Either way, I'd like to figure out how to get a good shot of the train going over the lifting bridge just outside Carmarthen. I think there'd be a good view from an allotment, but I don't know if public access is permitted.

 

[HelixUK]

Although the IC125 is sometimes fairly busy to Tenby, I'm not sure all 8 carriages are needed. I could be wrong but from my (quite limited) observations I formed the opinion that what Tenby needs (in summer) is four or five 23m coaches on every train to/from Carmarthen (and beyond) rather than 8x23m on two services and 2x20m on the rest. In that respect, a 5-car 800 with 26m vehicles will probably be fine; my howls of outrage will be directed at the fact that, due to coming from busy London, the westbound will in all likelyhood involve a pair of non-gangwayed units being uncoupled while in passenger service.

Assuming the 800s have in fact been cleared now; is there any chance they will start to appear this summer or can I continue to enjoy IC125s on the service for the rest of this year? Either way, I'd like to figure out how to get a good shot of the train going over the lifting bridge just outside Carmarthen. I think there'd be a good view from an allotment, but I don't know if public access is permitted.

Well as per a couple of post above there will only be 5+car IETs west of Swansea due to Carmarthen start signals....

 

[allaction]

Although the IC125 is sometimes fairly busy to Tenby, I'm not sure all 8 carriages are needed. I could be wrong but from my (quite limited) observations I formed the opinion that what Tenby needs (in summer) is four or five 23m coaches on every train to/from Carmarthen (and beyond) rather than 8x23m on two services and 2x20m on the rest. In that respect, a 5-car 800 with 26m vehicles will probably be fine; my howls of outrage will be directed at the fact that, due to coming from busy London, the westbound will in all likelyhood involve a pair of non-gangwayed units being uncoupled while in passenger service.

Assuming the 800s have in fact been cleared now; is there any chance they will start to appear this summer or can I continue to enjoy IC125s on the service for the rest of this year? Either way, I'd like to figure out how to get a good shot of the train going over the lifting bridge just outside Carmarthen. I think there'd be a good view from an allotment, but I don't know if public access is permitted.

All we want is the retention of direct services from That London, whether by IC125 or IET. The morning train from Paddington is, obviously, busier than the morning train from Swansea when it arrives in Tenby, and the morning train to Paddington from the Dock and Tenby is busier than the afternoon return.

With regard to snapping it in Carmarthen, I noticed yesterday a public footpath on the West Bank of the Tawe/Towy river that seems to pass under the line.

I also noticed a hand-painted black on yellow board lineside just before the swing bridge on the approach from Carmarthen naming it the “P & T Loop Junction” - a rare memory of the original operator of the line.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Hi,
Can anybody please tell me if when travelling from London to Tenby on the HST can you alight from the 1st class carriages onto the platform or do you have to walk up the train?
Thanks!

 

[tiptoptaff]

Hi,
Can anybody please tell me if when travelling from London to Tenby on the HST can you alight from the 1st class carriages onto the platform or do you have to walk up the train?
Thanks!

Generally not - stop markers are for as many STD coaches on the platform as possible. However even in reverse they will tend to ignore the markers and stop long to fit coaches on. Exceptions are Tenby, where it only just fits in the loop and the platformed coaches are the platformed coaches, and Pembroke Dock, where it's overlength for the platform so the same applies.