National Fares Manual

[Death]

Hail All!
This follows on from discussion regarding the NFM in Y-P Svr Rtn valid routing query, which I felt was worth a topic in it's own right...Especially as I doubt I'm the only person who feels that the NFM should be freely available as an open, downloadable document.

If I may be so bold as to ask...Why do National Rail refuse to publish the full version of the NFM online? Peeking at the currently downloadable parts of the NFM and the Routeing Guide with a hex editor reveals that all NR publications are produced using Microsoft Office anyway, so the sections of the NFM that I want to get my hands on are - In all likelyhood - Just very large MS Excel files, and perfectly suitable for packaging in a PDF file and hosting online. :roll:

Given that the NFM is published by HMSO (IIRC), the retail cost of the actual guide itself is probabally just printing and distribution costs, and I'd rather not go paying £££s that I really can't afford (For a volume that is only valid for a year at a time anyway!) when all I want to be able to do is compare ticketing options and prices at my own leisure for two to four long distance journeys every year. hock:
At any rate...It'd certainly be much quicker, easier, and more practical for me to download and store about 200Mb worth of PDF documents on my PC than it would be for me to order, pay for and accept delivery of something eight times the size of the Yellow Pages! :razz:

Given that they're not officially available online: Is it possible to view these documents in a public place, say at a library or possibly certain major stations? I'd go down Farnborough Main and ask to have a look at their copy if I could, but I doubt they'd have the time available to let me leaf through even just the SR one. :?

Also - What happens to old copies of the NFM once they're out of date? I'd presume (And hope) that they're recycled...But one thing that I'm thinking is that old copies of the NFM would serve me well enough, as long as I know the fare increase percentage for each TOC relevant to my journey, and that info is normally available online at the TOC's websites I believe.

If anyone does possess a copy of the full NFM in electronic format, would they be willing to e-mail it to me at all?

Farewell, and many thanks in advance for thy help, advice, and answers!
>> Death <<

 

[me123]

Yorkie had a copy of "Avantix" by Atos Origin that was a bit out of date, but gave a good estimation of the fares. Otherwise, I know of no online version.

I don't see why they don't put it online. OK, I see 2 reasons: it promotes fare avoidance and requires more bandwidth but I agree that it should be freely available as it is our right as rail passengers to access such a document free of charge. To be honest, I can't think of anyone who would benefit from purchasing it in book form; thetrainline shows most available fares anyway.

 

[1D53]

Many people had Advantix Traveller, myself included thanks to someone at Atos Origin accidentally leaking it. It was in date until December this year and is now out of date.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I also feel very strongly that the fares manual should be published online... There isn't exactly private/confidential information in it which could endanger lives if the fares manual "fell into the wrong hands" is there?

 

[djw1981]

Many people had Advantix Traveller, myself included thanks to someone at Atos Origin accidentally leaking it. It was in date until December this year and is now out of date.

Do you mean December last year?

 

[Ascot]

It's because the general public will easily find all the tips and tricks to save a few quid.

 

[yorkie]

You can download the OLD Avantix traveller here:-

http://www.theticketcollector.co.uk/wordpress/fares-manual/

Note: this is out of date, and comes with no instructions. Use at your own risk! But it's a good guide.

 

[1D53]

At your own risk in case your computer explodes.........

 

[yorkie]

The risk is that you see a ticket as code 8A and some immoral TOC has imposed fare rises by stealth by changing the restriction code :x or they've withdrawn a CDR or something which is also 'allowed' by the idiots in Government and doesn't 'count' as a fare rise.

It's going to be completely obsolete in September this year anyway.

 

[1D53]

As is the entire fare system we love and know

 

[Death]

Hail All!

You can download the OLD Avantix traveller here:-
http://www.theticketcollector.co.uk/wordpress/fares-manual/
Note: this is out of date, and comes with no instructions. Use at your own risk! But it's a good guide.

Cheers for posting that Yorkie! It may be out of date by a few months, but it's much better than nothing...Although even nothing is better than the National Rail website for fare info! Trying to get accurate Y-P fares out of that thing is like trying to get Blood from a stone IMO... hock::roll::?

I managed to successfully download the Avantix archive from the site earlier and will install it later when I get the time. Looking through the release/install notes, it's officially designed for WinXP SP2...Which happens to be what I'm running on my own machine!
Hopefully then, I should have better reliability out of it than most people have done...Although noting the filename of the archive, would it be better run under Windows95/98 mode?

Edit: I've just found out about the MSN SkyDrive service, and I've uploaded a copy of the Avantix NFM CD-ROM to that insted to provide a download mirror. Ye may now also download Previous versions of the NFM from This page
(These downloads are for archival and historical purposes, and are intended for those who have the rights to access the NFM and the data within. )

Given that we must have ticket office staff here...Any chance ye could grab a ZIP or ISO copy of the current version? A couple of minutes at a PC and covert use of a USB stick is all that's needed...Or even ask thy manager if ye can borrow it for the night so that ye can "Familiarise thyself with common fares and their restrictions..."

--- Old post above / New post below: ---

It's going to be completely obsolete in September this year anyway.

As is the entire fare system we love and know

What's the existing structure going to be replaced with? Hopefully, a VERY simple fares system based entirely on the Crows' distance with Single and Return tickets only...Although knowing National Fail(ure), we can only dream that it'd ever be that easy... :roll:

Farewell, and thanks again for the NFM link!
>> Death <<

 

[yorkie]

Government 'white paper' about the new structure here

There is a discussion on the new fares here (not been posted to recently but feel free to revive it), I predict winners and losers...

 

[Tom C]

Also - What happens to old copies of the NFM once they're out of date? I'd presume (And hope) that they're recycled...But one thing that I'm thinking is that old copies of the NFM would serve me well enough, as long as I know the fare increase percentage for each TOC relevant to my journey, and that info is normally available online at the TOC's websites I believe.

Old NFM's have to be kept in the booking office incase a season ticket from the previous fare structure gets put in for a refund. After that they get put in the bin as recycling is a new thing.

Given that we must have ticket office staff here...Any chance ye could grab a ZIP or ISO copy of the current version?

Friad not, all NFM's are STILL in paper format only. The best I can do is a couple of old APTIS window personality cartridges which are even more out of date than the Advantix thingy. TO be honest I would try and keep last periods for you but you may as well use Advantix as its basically the same thing but FAR easier to understand!.

 

[Death]

Hail again!

Old NFM's have to be kept in the booking office incase a season ticket from the previous fare structure gets put in for a refund.

Hmmm...Suppose I should've thought of that. It'd also explain why I've occasionally seen old NFMs kicking around at stations...Although I'd always thought they were only ever kept around for use as doorstops or temporary sets of buffers due to their size!

After that they get put in the bin as recycling is a new thing.

That's National Rail for ye I suppose...Just think; The NFM must be responsible for a good 60% of the Worlds rainforest depletion over the last 20 years alone! hock::roll:

How long has the NFM been in print? I'm guessing that it dates back from the 1940's at least!

Friad not, all NFM's are STILL in paper format only. The best I can do is a couple of old APTIS window personality cartridges which are even more out of date than the Advantix thingy. TO be honest I would try and keep last periods for you but you may as well use Advantix as its basically the same thing but FAR easier to understand!.

Hmmm...I was more referring to the idea of someone grabbing a copy of the current Avantix CD-ROM more than anything else, but that's assuming it's actually issued to booking offices! Failing that though, a copy of the Avantix program directory (Everything under C:\Program Files\Atos Origin\Avantix***) from a PC with a full install of it would be good enough for me, as it looks to me like only the program database(s) have changed over the years. I'd guess that the database from our 2006CE copies of Avantix would happily run on the 2000CE version, if one exists!
(The actual program itself seems to me to be recompiled over and over for the current commercial version of Windows (So the NFM CD-ROM for 2009CE will probabally be a Vista Business release) and I found some seemingly Win95-esque arrangements in there when I ran it through my hex editor earlier! hock::roll:)
--------------------------------------------------------
Earlier this evening I had a thought come into mind for a perpetual version of the NFM (Based on simple mathematics) that would calculate it's data from 4-10 "core" fares for each ticket type that are input every time the fare is increased. It wouldn't be accurate enough for booking office use, but it'd be OK for giving passengers an approximation of their fare, and would (Hopefully) come in a small enough size to be installable on a mobile phone or similar device.

At this stage; the entire thing is theoretical (The idea came to me whilst on the loo...Go figure! :roll so I don't know if the theory itself is sound enough to work. But if I can get a prototype working that'll give fares along the Southampton main line only, I'll post it on this board for testing, comments and improvements.

On that note though, it'd necessitate me extensively hacking the NFM database shipped with Avantix, and would be derailed by any significant structure changeover until new tables could be drawn up...So the forthcoming structures change in September may well make this exercise pointless.
It'd be a fun project though...But in any case, it'll have to wait until my trips to Blackpool and Middlesborough are done at least! :razz:

Farewell...
>> Death <<

 

[Z12XE]

Given that we must have ticket office staff here...Any chance ye could grab a ZIP or ISO copy of the current version? A couple of minutes at a PC and covert use of a USB stick is all that's needed...Or even ask thy manager if ye can borrow it for the night so that ye can "Familiarise thyself with common fares and their restrictions..."

There's no need to grab a "ZIP or ISO" and would probably raise some questiones if such people did.

The online version is searchable (from any internet connection) on the FRPP.

 

[Ascot]

But the FRPS is only available with a TOC password like the other portal.

 

[Z12XE]

Yes exactly, which is why I said any staff borrowing items for Avantix would be questionned as they could have legal access to the Portal

 

[Tom B]

The fare manual should not be restricted to staff - it should be a basic right that passengers should be able to view the documents by which their fare is calculated.

A similar system is enshrined in PSV law. If I board a bus, ask for a ticket to x, and am asked for £2.40 when yesterday I was charged £2.00, I can ask to see a copy of the fares chart - which the driver must produce, or face disciplinary action. I could therefore see if the the fares had risen without notice, or if the driver was simply trying to get me to pay more.

IMO, the NFM ought to be put online, and available for inspection at all manned ticket offices. Passengers could, therefore, have access to those rules which dictate the calculation of their fare - and therefore ensure that they are buying the right ticket for their journey - not the one that they have been sold by the ticket staff (I do recall a muppet at Doncaster telling me I could use a YP Saver on the 0830 from Kings Cross).