National Park Buses

[Llandudno]

Just returned from an enjoyable walking weekend in the Lake District.

Used trains and buses to get there and was amazed at the quality, frequency and reliability of the bus services in the National Park.

Modern Stagecoach vehicles, with network branding, buses running 7 days a week with many routes operating until late evening. Excellent marketing of the bus network including various rover ticket options both on line and in old fashioned leaflets. Most bus stops with up to date timetable displays and even a queue conductor on duty at Windermere station offering advice and selling tickets to speed boarding times.

I think virtually all the Lake District network is commercially operated by Stagecoach.

Now compare this with the ‘rag tag and bobtail’ network of buses operating in the Snowdonia or Peak District National Parks. A plethora of operators mainly running contract services, some with clapped out old buses, no branding, no through tickets, no service coordination, no connection with rail services.

Very little marketing of the few routes that are operating and in the case of North Wales most timetable cases displaying out of date information.

No wonder Snowdonia and the Peak District car parks are full when the sun comes out!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, quite. And Snowdonia would be easy to serve quite well because it has a very small number of roads running through it - the Lakes has a much more complex network.

I think this is largely down to the fact that Wales has long been served by a hotch potch of small disreputable firms plus one disreputable large firm (Arriva) which never seems to put any effort into anything beyond whether the wheels turn or not. It's never been Stagey territory, nor has anything to do with Alex Hornby ever been over that way - these are the organisations that put the effort into making stuff look actually good and stick with it. (First have a go then give up when they quickly get bored).

Having said what I said about Alex Hornby's former employer...Wellglade (TM Travel and High Peak) do operate in the Peak, and those aren't particularly good either... Mind you it's probably the Julian Peddle influence in the latter that makes it a bit lackadaisical - the Transpeak etc looked a lot better when they were actually part of Trent.

Mind you, things are moving the right way with Trawscymru, and I do wonder if they could perhaps resurrect the "Snowdon Sherpa'r Wyddfa" branding for a new tendered network as part of that family.

 

[Hophead]

Lake District car parks are equally full in high summer, as are the roads! As indeed, can the buses be as well. A late September visit is clearly not high season so you got the benefit of the comprehensive network, without the overcrowding.

 

[carlberry]

Just returned from an enjoyable walking weekend in the Lake District.

Used trains and buses to get there and was amazed at the quality, frequency and reliability of the bus services in the National Park.

Modern Stagecoach vehicles, with network branding, buses running 7 days a week with many routes operating until late evening. Excellent marketing of the bus network including various rover ticket options both on line and in old fashioned leaflets. Most bus stops with up to date timetable displays and even a queue conductor on duty at Windermere station offering advice and selling tickets to speed boarding times.

I think virtually all the Lake District network is commercially operated by Stagecoach.

Now compare this with the ‘rag tag and bobtail’ network of buses operating in the Snowdonia or Peak District National Parks. A plethora of operators mainly running contract services, some with clapped out old buses, no branding, no through tickets, no service coordination, no connection with rail services.

Very little marketing of the few routes that are operating and in the case of North Wales most timetable cases displaying out of date information.

No wonder Snowdonia and the Peak District car parks are full when the sun comes out!

It's been a few years since I've visited the Lake District, however I don't remember any empty car parks at that time, just endless traffic jams around the honey pot locations.
If Snowdonia had the same number of visitors as the Lake District it's likely it would have the same level of bus provision, however it gets 20% of the visitors for the same area. If Gwynedd council had the same approach to bus provision that Cumbria has then the only buses in the park would be the Traws!

 

[Llandudno]

Lake District car parks are equally full in high summer, as are the roads! As indeed, can the buses be as well. A late September visit is clearly not high season so you got the benefit of the comprehensive network, without the overcrowding.

Although it was mid September, I can assure you the buses were very busy!

The point is though the quality of the product is very good, the ticketing options, although not cheap, are excellent and extremely well marketed.

There are integrated tickets in Snowdonia - but no one knows about them!
Even some bus drivers and train guards are not aware of them!

 

[Mwanesh]

Wales is a challenging place to operate. All the operators are struggling. Cardiff Bus and Newport are up the creek. Arriva do best with what they have as someone who uses their buses in North Wales i cant say they are that bad.

 

[johnnychips]

The Peak District, until quite recently, had an excellent bus network subsidised by both Derbyshire CC and the National Park, and the Derbyshire or GM Wayfarer tickets were/are excellent value. However, and I used them a lot, the services were often carrying fresh air. Naturally, many services have now been cut because of local authority savings.

The main bus routes can be absolutely chocka on a nice weekend especially from Sheffield and also the TransPeak. However for more esoteric locations away from Castleton, Bakewell, Matlock and Buxton, people do find cars more convenient and are prepared to put up with the odd traffic jam and parking difficulties.

 

[Ken H]

When you compare the lakes and the dales the dales comes off woefully

Settle - horton in Ribblesdale should be as busy as Borrowdale and Gt langdale. But it has a derisory 3 muses a day run with minibuses. Start late , finish early. first bus up the dale 0920, last bus back from horton, 1435.
OK there is the train, but no good for walks from langcliffe, Stainforth or Helwith Br. And useless for commuting
Upper Wharfedale, Malhamdale and Wensleydale are just minibuses too.

 

[johnnychips]

When you compare the lakes and the dales the dales comes off woefully

Settle - Horton in Ribblesdale should be as busy as Borrowdale and Gt langdale. But it has a derisory 3 muses a day run with minibuses. Start late , finish early. first bus up the dale 0920, last bus back from Horton, 1435.
OK there is the train, but no good for walks from Langcliffe, Stainforth or Helwith Br. And useless for commuting
Upper Wharfedale, Malhamdale and Wensleydale are just minibuses too.

Much as I love both these areas, Borrowdale (Seathwaite, Honister, Rosthwate etc.) is a dead end from an extremely popular honeypot - Keswick. This can give access to magnificent mountains. On the other hand those Ribblesdale places you mention accessible from Settle - a lovely place but relatively insignificant in the great scheme of things, just has access to Penyghent.

The difference to bus services, I would suggest is the relative importance of Keswick compared to Settle as tourist destinations rather maybe than the different scenery available; they are different types and the Lakes is perhaps perceived as different (and more 'spectacular') from the Dales, though I think both are equally charming in their own ways

 

[181]

I think it depends where in the Lakes you want to get to -- the further you get from the routes going east, west and south from Keswick, the fewer the buses. I suspect that the best way to get to Wasdale Head by public transport involves the Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway and a walk of several miles.

I've made two visits to Snowdonia using buses, and while on both occasions I could get where I wanted to, my impression is that things had deteriorated between 2012 and 2018 (e.g. the disappearance of most buses along the A5 past Llyn Ogwen).

 

[Llandudno]

Perhaps the lack of marketing, coordinated rail and bus timetables and through ticketing is one of the main factors resulting in poor patronage in Snowdonia, Peak District and Yorkshire Dales and the eventual service reductions because no one is using them.

 

[Ken H]

Perhaps the lack of marketing, coordinated rail and bus timetables and through ticketing is one of the main factors resulting in poor patronage in Snowdonia, Peak District and Yorkshire Dales and the eventual service reductions because no one is using them.

On a summer Sunday in t'Dales, there is Dalesbus, and then there is a £10 all day ticket. Not all Dalesbus buses take OAP passes, though.

Away from the honeypots in the Lakes, there is very little bus provision in Cumbria. East of the M6 there is very little. There is nothing between Barrow and Whitehaven - there is just the train. Broughton in Furness - nothing.

 

[peterblue]

Even Millom/Hazelrigg - which is a fairly large area has only 1 bus a day which is primarily for school children. There's very little bus provision outside of the tourist areas in Cumbria.

However if you compare the lakes with the dales, the moors, the peaks, I think Stagecoach run a comprehensive service. Part of the reason it's successful is because it's a simple service with 1 operator with a very helpful and accessible timetable book advertising exactly where to go. It's very straightforward for tourists.

Compare this with e.g. peak district, where there are half a dozen different operators most of which provide little to no information, advertisement or encouragement of their services. The average tourist isn't going to look at 5 different websites for planning a journey - they would just bring their car.

The dales/moors do slightly better as they have a dedicated website and also a booklet of all services so people can find easily where to go. The problem with this area is the relative sparcity of services with most only running a handful of times a day (at most!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Used some Stagey buses around the Lakes this weekend - it was all very well presented. Another nice feature was that they seem to be able to do through ticketing - I bought a through single fare from Dungeon Ghyll to Windermere changing at Ambleside - and this was at the driver's suggestion.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The service in the Lake District is indeed rather good, at least during 'summer' daytimes. There are very few evening services (one bus working out of Kendal depot which is (perhaps was) run by a driver who has that shift for family reasons, better on the X4/5 through Keswick.

Out of season, or away from the central lakes, Cumbrian services are as poor as the rest of the country - with sparse and infrequent services.

I always found them to be eye-wateringly expensive for the occasional user. Just the person you perhaps want to encourage to leave their car on the camp-site and travel by bus? A single from Windermere to Ambleside will set you back £4.90 and a return £8.50. In comparison an Explorer day ticket (covering Bolton to Dumfries and across to Newcastle) is only £11.50

Interestingly a single from Windermere to Coniston is £10.00 whilst a return is £8.50 (the central lakes day ticket).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Lake District is roughly the same size as the Yorkshire Dales and Snowdonia. However, the number of visitors per annum are markedly different. The Lakes gets 24m vs YD (12.6m) and Snowdonia (10.4m). The resident populations is also markedly higher in the Lakes.

However, a major benefit has been that one operator has been in situ over the last 30 years since Stagecoach bought Ribble. In that time, they have really focussed on developing the routes and network. The 599 has been a massive success. I can't fully recall how the 555 has changed but I do remember the predecessor of the X4/X5. The 34 went from Workington to Cockermouth (hourly) with a two hourly extension (I think) to Keswick. Meanwhile, the route from Keswick to Penrith was also two hourly. It really has been a success story.

Unfortunately, North Yorkshire CC has always been lukewarm on supporting buses (let alone marketing) and even in regulated days, the Yorkshire Dales was served by three NBC operators.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The Lake District is roughly the same size as the Yorkshire Dales and Snowdonia. However, the number of visitors per annum are markedly different. The Lakes gets 24m vs YD (12.6m) and Snowdonia (10.4m). The resident populations is also markedly higher in the Lakes.

However, a major benefit has been that one operator has been in situ over the last 30 years since Stagecoach bought Ribble. In that time, they have really focussed on developing the routes and network. The 599 has been a massive success. I can't fully recall how the 555 has changed but I do remember the predecessor of the X4/X5. The 34 went from Workington to Cockermouth (hourly) with a two hourly extension (I think) to Keswick. Meanwhile, the route from Keswick to Penrith was also two hourly. It really has been a success story.

Unfortunately, North Yorkshire CC has always been lukewarm on supporting buses (let alone marketing) and even in regulated days, the Yorkshire Dales was served by three NBC operators.

Well, its funny you should ask....
Regarding the northern part of the 555 Lancaster to Keswick route:
June 1947 (with wartime restrictions still in place) - every 7/8 minutes Windermere to Troutbeck, every 15 minutes on to Grasmere, every 30 minutes on to Keswick.
June 1949 - every 20 minutes Kendal to Keswick.
June 1958 - every 30 minutes Kendal to Keswick.
May 1967 - every 30 minutes Kendal to Ambleside, every 60 minutes on to Keswick.
May 1972 - every 60 minutes Kendal to Keswick and with much reduced period of operation - first arrival into Keswick 1013, through to 1813 then 2213.
May 1986 (ie the pre-deregulation service) - every 60 minutes Kendal to Keswick.
May 1987 (ie the post-deregulation service) - much the same, every 60 minutes Kendal to Keswick.
And much the same since with the relatively recent introduction of an express (via M6) service from Lancaster to Kendal making a 30 minute service Kendal to Keswick.

The Windermere - Bowness service (forerunner of the 599 open-top service) was, in 1947, every 10 minutes and at times every 7/8 minutes until late into the evening. It reduced over the years to a 30 minute frequency. At deregulation it was relaunched with a 15 minute frequency.
The big change came in Summer 1990 when, in response to Guide Friday competition, the service was changed to operate through to Ambleside (and later Grasmere), with open top buses.

The big issues were with the deep rural routes to places like Dungeon Ghyll and Coniston. You would think that a service to Dungeon Ghyll, with it's narrow roads and limited parking, but very popular with walkers, would be able to be operated frequently and commercially, at least in summer 'back in the day'. The 516 (Dungeon Ghyll) frequency varied from around 9 to around 12 trips per day.
Summer 1986 - 5 or 6 trips per day.
Summer 1990 - 4 trips on weekdays, 3 on Saturdays and no Sunday service, even in summer.
Summer 1991 - 3 trips on weekdays, of which 2 are the school service, plus a mid-day trip, 2 on Saturdays, no Sunday service
Summer 1998 - improved to 5/6 trips per day.
And much the same since.

In the northen lakes the service between Penrith and Keswick was quite bad, even after the train service was withdrawn.
1940's and 1950's - around 10 trips per day.
1970's incrementally cut back to 8 trips per day with a minimal Sunday service.
De-regulation day - just 2 round trips Monday to Saturday
Summer 1990 - 5/6 trips
Summer 1997 - X5 every 60 minutes.
2000 to 2004 - X5 every 30 minutes (at humungous subsidy from Cumbria CC - I recall a figure of £500,000 per year being mentioned).

 

[43106]

Whilst the tourist-y parts of the Lake District seem to be well served (for tourists), the western part is dreadful. There used to be a fairly reasonable set of services from Whitehaven down to Millom (I can't comment on services between Millom and Barrow). There is nothing between Thornhill (just south of Egremont) and Millom. There used to be an array of services in this area about 40 years ago, namely...
The 9 to/from Drigg,
the 10a to Nether Wasdale,
the occasional 11 to Beckermet,
the 12 to anywhere between (& including) Calderbridge and Seascale, and...
the 13 to Millom (requiring a change of buses at Seascale).
When Stagecoach took over Cumberland, they closed down everything between Thornhill and Millom. A private operator did try and fill in some of the gap, but Stagecoach took them over and promptly closed down the route. This was repeated about 6 years later. The only Stagecoach services in the area are works services for Sellafield, which don't stop for ordinary passengers.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well, its funny you should ask....
Regarding the northern part of the 555 Lancaster to Keswick route:
June 1947 (with wartime restrictions still in place) - every 7/8 minutes Windermere to Troutbeck, every 15 minutes on to Grasmere, every 30 minutes on to Keswick.
June 1949 - every 20 minutes Kendal to Keswick.
June 1958 - every 30 minutes Kendal to Keswick.
May 1967 - every 30 minutes Kendal to Ambleside, every 60 minutes on to Keswick.
May 1972 - every 60 minutes Kendal to Keswick and with much reduced period of operation - first arrival into Keswick 1013, through to 1813 then 2213.
May 1986 (ie the pre-deregulation service) - every 60 minutes Kendal to Keswick.
May 1987 (ie the post-deregulation service) - much the same, every 60 minutes Kendal to Keswick.
And much the same since with the relatively recent introduction of an express (via M6) service from Lancaster to Kendal making a 30 minute service Kendal to Keswick.

The Windermere - Bowness service (forerunner of the 599 open-top service) was, in 1947, every 10 minutes and at times every 7/8 minutes until late into the evening. It reduced over the years to a 30 minute frequency. At deregulation it was relaunched with a 15 minute frequency.
The big change came in Summer 1990 when, in response to Guide Friday competition, the service was changed to operate through to Ambleside (and later Grasmere), with open top buses.

The big issues were with the deep rural routes to places like Dungeon Ghyll and Coniston. You would think that a service to Dungeon Ghyll, with it's narrow roads and limited parking, but very popular with walkers, would be able to be operated frequently and commercially, at least in summer 'back in the day'. The 516 (Dungeon Ghyll) frequency varied from around 9 to around 12 trips per day.
Summer 1986 - 5 or 6 trips per day.
Summer 1990 - 4 trips on weekdays, 3 on Saturdays and no Sunday service, even in summer.
Summer 1991 - 3 trips on weekdays, of which 2 are the school service, plus a mid-day trip, 2 on Saturdays, no Sunday service
Summer 1998 - improved to 5/6 trips per day.
And much the same since.

In the northen lakes the service between Penrith and Keswick was quite bad, even after the train service was withdrawn.
1940's and 1950's - around 10 trips per day.
1970's incrementally cut back to 8 trips per day with a minimal Sunday service.
De-regulation day - just 2 round trips Monday to Saturday
Summer 1990 - 5/6 trips
Summer 1997 - X5 every 60 minutes.
2000 to 2004 - X5 every 30 minutes (at humungous subsidy from Cumbria CC - I recall a figure of £500,000 per year being mentioned).

Thanks for all of that - that's really interesting. I travelled on the 34/104 (X5) in 1991 so that 5/6 trips chimes with my experience. The 599 I remember is the resurgence of the early 1990s.

The bus services in Wensleydale and Swaledale are a bit of a mixed bag. Most services are now community minibuses. These operate at a lower frequency than the conventional services that they replaced (enhanced with Rural Bus Challenge money) albeit with more daily journeys than before or after deregulation. NYCC cut a lot of subsidies in 1981 and the general pattern of services lasted until c2001.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Whilst the tourist-y parts of the Lake District seem to be well served (for tourists), the western part is dreadful. There used to be a fairly reasonable set of services from Whitehaven down to Millom (I can't comment on services between Millom and Barrow). There is nothing between Thornhill (just south of Egremont) and Millom. There used to be an array of services in this area about 40 years ago, namely...
The 9 to/from Drigg,
the 10a to Nether Wasdale,
the occasional 11 to Beckermet,
the 12 to anywhere between (& including) Calderbridge and Seascale, and...
the 13 to Millom (requiring a change of buses at Seascale).
When Stagecoach took over Cumberland, they closed down everything between Thornhill and Millom. A private operator did try and fill in some of the gap, but Stagecoach took them over and promptly closed down the route. This was repeated about 6 years later. The only Stagecoach services in the area are works services for Sellafield, which don't stop for ordinary passengers.

Wasn't the main Millom route the local service to Haverigg? Seemed to get new VRs in the old NBC days IIRC

 

[Llandudno]

Whilst the tourist-y parts of the Lake District seem to be well served (for tourists), the western part is dreadful. There used to be a fairly reasonable set of services from Whitehaven down to Millom (I can't comment on services between Millom and Barrow). There is nothing between Thornhill (just south of Egremont) and Millom. There used to be an array of services in this area about 40 years ago, namely...
The 9 to/from Drigg,
the 10a to Nether Wasdale,
the occasional 11 to Beckermet,
the 12 to anywhere between (& including) Calderbridge and Seascale, and...
the 13 to Millom (requiring a change of buses at Seascale).
When Stagecoach took over Cumberland, they closed down everything between Thornhill and Millom. A private operator did try and fill in some of the gap, but Stagecoach took them over and promptly closed down the route. This was repeated about 6 years later. The only Stagecoach services in the area are works services for Sellafield, which don't stop for ordinary passengers.

Mind you I bet the current train service between Whitehaven and Millom and on to Barrow is the best there has ever been, plus trains on Sundays as well!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Thanks for all of that - that's really interesting. I travelled on the 34/104 (X5) in 1991 so that 5/6 trips chimes with my experience. The 599 I remember is the resurgence of the early 1990s.

The bus services in Wensleydale and Swaledale are a bit of a mixed bag. Most services are now community minibuses. These operate at a lower frequency than the conventional services that they replaced (enhanced with Rural Bus Challenge money) albeit with more daily journeys than before or after deregulation. NYCC cut a lot of subsidies in 1981 and the general pattern of services lasted until c2001.

Wensleydale and Swaledale always were pretty poor, although the patronage was similarly poor I imagine. Very thin country, even in the heyday of buses I would think.

United had an outstation at Gayle (still there, visible on Google maps).
In 1966 there were 11 trips each way, but some of those were at duplicate times down both sides of the valley, so approx every two hours in practice.
By 1984 there were about 4 trips each way - the timetable is one of those "incomprehensible unless you live there and spend a week studying it before travelling" types with mwth, tu, f and sa variations.
By 1999 there was an hourly service Gayle - Leyburn, with 3 buses seemingly based at Gayle.
Slowly cut back from those heady days - initially with a 'postbus' making some of the hourly trips.

West Yorkshire had an outstation at Grassington (still there, now the Royal Mail delivery office, the words 'bus station' just about visible on the stonework).
In 1966 there was a reasonable service (sort of hourly) Skipton to Grassington with four trips through to Buckden.
By 1975, Grassington to Buckden was Wednesdays and weekends only, so the later introduction (with rural bus grant) of a two-hourly service 6 days per week was, shall we say, very generous for the likely levels of traffic!

Skipton to Malham had, in 1947, 5 trips weekdays, 6 Saturdays and 3 Sundays.
Again incrementally reduced over the years.

The Settle to Horton-in-Ribblesdale bus service has traditionally been pretty poor. Whilst the Settle-Carlisle intermediate stations were closed (1970 to 1986), the whole valley, over the top and down the Eden valley, was a no-go area for the public transport user. Hence the popularity of the Sunday 'Dales-Rail' services when they were introduced. There simply was nothing else!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Thanks for all of that - that's really interesting. I travelled on the 34/104 (X5) in 1991 so that 5/6 trips chimes with my experience. The 599 I remember is the resurgence of the early 1990s.

The bus services in Wensleydale and Swaledale are a bit of a mixed bag. Most services are now community minibuses. These operate at a lower frequency than the conventional services that they replaced (enhanced with Rural Bus Challenge money) albeit with more daily journeys than before or after deregulation. NYCC cut a lot of subsidies in 1981 and the general pattern of services lasted until c2001.

Yes, in 1991 the 34/35 ran hourly from Whitehaven to Keswick, alternately via Braithwaite or Bassenthwaite. The 104 ran 5 or 6 times per day Keswick to Penrith.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Wensleydale and Swaledale always were pretty poor, although the patronage was similarly poor I imagine. Very thin country, even in the heyday of buses I would think.

United had an outstation at Gayle (still there, visible on Google maps).
In 1966 there were 11 trips each way, but some of those were at duplicate times down both sides of the valley, so approx every two hours in practice.
By 1984 there were about 4 trips each way - the timetable is one of those "incomprehensible unless you live there and spend a week studying it before travelling" types with mwth, tu, f and sa variations.
By 1999 there was an hourly service Gayle - Leyburn, with 3 buses seemingly based at Gayle.
Slowly cut back from those heady days - initially with a 'postbus' making some of the hourly trips.

West Yorkshire had an outstation at Grassington (still there, now the Royal Mail delivery office, the words 'bus station' just about visible on the stonework).
In 1966 there was a reasonable service (sort of hourly) Skipton to Grassington with four trips through to Buckden.
By 1975, Grassington to Buckden was Wednesdays and weekends only, so the later introduction (with rural bus grant) of a two-hourly service 6 days per week was, shall we say, very generous for the likely levels of traffic!

The outstation at Gayle was a two vehicle affair. The main Wensleydale services were as follows:

• 78 Leyburn to Northallerton (this was Northallerton depot), again two hourly.
• 26 Richmond to Hawes via Aysgarth
• 127 Ripon to Hawes via Askrigg reflecting the need (as you said) to serve both sides of the valley.
• There was some duplication of times (school runs) but essentially they were two hourly. Prior to 1981, Ripon and Richmond each supplied one vehicle to Gayle outstation with both depots also running in their own right up the dale. There was also the

The 1981 cuts were brutal and, as you say, were a real challenge to use.

For the 26 and 127, you essentially, you had a morning schools run from Gayle to Leyburn and return in the afternoon, every day. The other journeys were based around the various market days so the 127 bus would run straight to Gayle (M), wait around and run to Hawes for market day (Tu), run a 78 to Northallerton (W), continue down the dale to Ripon (Th/S) or run straight back to run back to Leyburn (F). There were also some other short journeys from Leyburn to Redmire daily operated by Richmond depot. The 26 was more straightforward but again influenced by market days.

The 78 became three main daily journeys - morning and afternoon schools plus the after 5pm "workers run". There were market day runs with the Wednesday run to Northallerton (as mentioned) and some shorts on a Tues and Fri between Bedale and Leyburn, again operated by Richmond depot.

Basically, that was retained post de-reg and it's fair to say that it was all about the school runs, some buses for workers, and then serving the market days at the lowest marginal cost. The tourist market was barely considered (in contrast to the extensive WYRCC Dalesbus Sunday network)

 

[Bletchleyite]

With talk of the Langdale Rambler I do wonder if more could be done with this, even without increasing the frequency, which, at 2 hourly, is usable because you can plan which one you want to use for the outward, and for the return there's the Old Dungeon Ghyll (Old Rosie on tap) to entertain you for as long as necessary.

Are there any low bridges on it - could an open top decker operate? There was a full sized coach at the Sticklebarn car park this weekend, so you could definitely get a full sized bus down there. This would help market it as a thing in its own right (and boost the pubs' takings!) rather than just a means to get somewhere for a hike.

Any scope for a Friday late evening service to get people going to the campsites down on a Friday evening?

Could it benefit from being extended back to Windermere? There are 2 journeys on weekdays which are, but they are at odd times and I suspect may be school related rather than for tourists. While connections at Ambleside are easy enough and through fares exist, it's a level of uncertainty that might mean rail passengers avoid it.

Could a branded vehicle be used on it? Though I believe it interworks with something else (what?) so perhaps that would need a rejig to make it one service?

For connections with the trains, the not-quite-Takt of the branch really doesn't help in the same manner as the Conwy Valley. They really need to get it properly clockface.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

With talk of the Langdale Rambler I do wonder if more could be done with this, even without increasing the frequency, which, at 2 hourly, is usable because you can plan which one you want to use for the outward, and for the return there's the Old Dungeon Ghyll (Old Rosie on tap) to entertain you for as long as necessary.

Are there any low bridges on it - could an open top decker operate? There was a full sized coach at the Sticklebarn car park this weekend, so you could definitely get a full sized bus down there. This would help market it as a thing in its own right (and boost the pubs' takings!) rather than just a means to get somewhere for a hike.

Any scope for a Friday late evening service to get people going to the campsites down on a Friday evening?

Could it benefit from being extended back to Windermere? There are 2 journeys on weekdays which are, but they are at odd times and I suspect may be school related rather than for tourists. While connections at Ambleside are easy enough and through fares exist, it's a level of uncertainty that might mean rail passengers avoid it.

Could a branded vehicle be used on it? Though I believe it interworks with something else (what?) so perhaps that would need a rejig to make it one service?

For connections with the trains, the not-quite-Takt of the branch really doesn't help in the same manner as the Conwy Valley. They really need to get it properly clockface.

In recent history, Stagecoach used a high floor Leyland Tiger? coach on it. Frightened the life out of motorists coming the other way on the many narrow bits.

No bridges at all that I can think of between Kendal (depot), Windermere, Ambleside and Dungeon Ghyll.

Extending back to Windermere would be great. The Coniston service (505) already does that hourly. I imagine the Windermere trips are essentially for operational convenience - to get the bus to Kendal for servicing and the cash to depot for banking. I once had a conversation with one of the drivers who explained how they operated things, at the time the buses went from Ambleside to Kendal private between the school trips (on rotation, not every day). The current through journeys do allow Langdale residents a direct trip to Booths at Windermere or on to Kendal for the supermarkets / shops there. They would also allow a Kendal based driver to cover mid-day breaks of Ambleside out-station drivers. That happened at one time but I am out of touch with current arrangements. Certainly there is generally a spare bus parked up at Windermere Station off-peak which serves as the staff restroom.

I used to stay up the valley several times a year and always had to allow a good gap between the train and bus at Windermere, then between buses at Ambleside. When things ran smoothly I ended up sitting in Ambleside for an hour or more. Other times I had to rudely push past people to run up the street between buses because the 516 had already arrived, loaded its passengers, and was about to depart. Other times, due to the lack of a 'late' departure, I had to stay on the 555/599 and walk in from Rydal, along Loughrigg Terrace and along the back road over the 'pass' where the Youth Hostel is. For many years the last bus of the day was the school bus (oh joy!) at 1540 from Ambleside. The current last bus at 1830 is a luxury in comparison.

Any inter-working was with the 505 Coniston service.

Comparison between Langdale and Borrowdale services is interesting. Both routes start from a major tourist town with lots of accommodation (Ambleside/Keswick respectively). One has always had fairly poor service (516 Langdale) the other generally a decent service (78 Borrowdale). Langdale has been Ribble, alone, since the year dot. Borrowdale had four operators in 1953 (Cumberland, WL Askew, RW Simpson, Weightmans (Keswick) Ltd, although it was a joint service rather than direct competition. Both will, nowadays, have very little use by locals. There has been an unadvertised (but registered) bus from Keswick School down Borrowdale for many years (not Stagecoach). The Lakes School to Langdale bus was part of the public timetable until 2012 when Stagecoach lost the contract and it then also became an unadvertised (but registered) bus (operated by Travellers Choice initially). I thought 2012 might be the end of the 516 service as it was wrapped around that school contract. Interestingly only relatively recently have any bus shelters been provided anywhere in the valley. There are now nice stone-faced, three sided shelters in Elterwater, Chapel Stile and at Dungeon Ghyll. For decades there were no shelters of any kind! Again, in contrast, Borrowdale had shelters at the main stops for decades.

 

[Ken H]

...


The Settle to Horton-in-Ribblesdale bus service has traditionally been pretty poor. Whilst the Settle-Carlisle intermediate stations were closed (1970 to 1986), the whole valley, over the top and down the Eden valley, was a no-go area for the public transport user. Hence the popularity of the Sunday 'Dales-Rail' services when they were introduced. There simply was nothing else!

I lived in Ribblesdale late 70's early 80's when Donny Waites ran the settle-horton bus. he ran about 5 a day i think. the school buses (which were available to the public) were full size buses. as were the ones on Settle market day. There was evening a trip mid evening, about 0930 from Horton. got it back to Settle a few times with a belly full of Helwith Bridge beer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I used to stay up the valley several times a year and always had to allow a good gap between the train and bus at Windermere, then between buses at Ambleside. When things ran smoothly I ended up sitting in Ambleside for an hour or more. Other times I had to rudely push past people to run up the street between buses because the 516 had already arrived, loaded its passengers, and was about to depart. Other times, due to the lack of a 'late' departure, I had to stay on the 555/599 and walk in from Rydal, along Loughrigg Terrace and along the back road over the 'pass' where the Youth Hostel is. For many years the last bus of the day was the school bus (oh joy!) at 1540 from Ambleside. The current last bus at 1830 is a luxury in comparison.

I did get the feeling there had been somewhat of an improvement. The present timetable is 2-hourly and is clockface except the first bus, which is definitely moving in the right direction. It's especially important to be able to remember "5 past the odd hour" (as it is from the Dungeon Ghyll end) as there's no mobile signal there to check it!

 

[ANWP Tom]

Even Millom/Hazelrigg - which is a fairly large area has only 1 bus a day which is primarily for school children. There's very little bus provision outside of the tourist areas in Cumbria.

Completely Agree looking back at the service in where I used to live (Barrow) and the surrounding area has taken massive cuts and withdrawals. 6 and X35 Combined into 1 route and cut back to barrow town hall from west shore.

7/X7 Barrow-Askam-Millom dropped from a sub hourly to very infrequent north of Askam.

Town service is now a shadow of even 5-10 years ago

In 2000s:
1 Furness General-Bigger Bank 10 minute frequency with last bus at 23:15
2 not in use since 6 change
3 Newbarns-Furness General 10 minute frequency with last bus 23:15 (1/3 being the driver roster)
4 Harel Lane-Asda 20 minutely
5 North Scale-Town Centre-(FG Hospital in evening) half hourly/hourly evenings 1 bus operation
6 West Shore-Barrow Centre-Dalton-Ulverston every 15 mins till midnight.
7 Barrow-Askam every 45 mins
X7 Barrow-Millom every other hour
10 & 11 Unchanged but were once stagecoach but now ran by a smaller operator in conjunction with the Coniston X12
X35 Barrow-Kendal Hourly
618 8 runs per day Barrow-Windermere (1 short run back to connect with X35 at newby bridge)

Now
1 every 12 mins, evening now hourly
2 west shore-Town hall every 15 mins, last bus 20:15
3 every 12 mins cut back to ormsgill
4 unchanged but cuts to evening service
5 unchanged
6 Town hall-ulverston every 20 mins with 1 per hour through to Kendal plus 4 per day to windermere
7 so little I cant explain it
x35 & 618 combined into the 6.

Tourist dollar over the local people im afraid. Not sure if there is similar cases in Workington and Whitehaven but Carlisle links seem good.

 

[RELL6L]

I agree with much of what has been said about the Lake District. Very good public transport – in places. But tourist driven – where there is a market.

I was lucky enough to do a trip up there last week - on Wednesday, the sunny day. I started in Grange over Sands, arriving around sunrise, to get the first X6 to Ulverston. Beautiful (but cold) looking over Morecambe Bay, sunny but then some pockets of mist heading past Newby Bridge. Ulverston is a pleasant little town – I was able to grab some breakfast and stock up with food there.

From Ulverston it was the Blueworks X12 to Coniston. Not a frequent service with a small minibus and it must be financially marginal. This was the 8.45 departure, arriving in Coniston at 9.22. One passenger plus me, but the driver said the return run could be much busier with shoppers headed for Ulverston. I have to say I didn’t follow the logic of the timetable because the last return from Coniston only runs on non schooldays – suggesting a school run at the Coniston end. So how come the 8.45 from Ulverston does run on schooldays? I think I got the answer when we arrived at Coniston because there was another X12 there! I suspect therefore that they have school runs at both ends of the route and the 9.30 from Coniston to Ulverston is duplicated. But I might be wrong, because the 2.50 back to Coniston can’t be duplicated if the second bus is needed for a school run in Ulverston. A pleasant run with nice views of Coniston Water.

Interesting situation at Coniston. The 505 to Ambleside was on the stand, and probably had been for a while as it comes in on a school run before 9.00. The departure is at 9.30 as opposed to the normal 28 minutes past the hour for the rest of the day – no doubt for pass holders. There were several people on the bus – a 51-reg Solo – but several more outside waiting. The pass holders could not get on until the ticket machine would allow them to use their passes, meaning the fare paying passengers got the pick of the seats. They were on before 9.30 so we did leave punctually. A glorious run across the top to Hawkshead – the old Solo really struggled with the hill – and quite a lot more passengers there, the bus was nearly full for the last leg to Ambleside. I think there were more locals than tourists although clearly some of the latter.

Half an hour wandering the relatively quiet streets of Ambleside – nice without the tourists - before getting an open topper on the 599 to Bowness on Windermere. The 599 is more than a scenic ride on an open top bus – and a good modern Volvo at that – it is a real workhorse route. Lots of passengers especially round Windermere, this is the main connection with the train both to Ambleside and Bowness and is busy with people just going from A to B. Plenty of tourists still around here and we were a few minutes late getting to Bowness. By the lake side Bowness was very crowded – a glorious day and everyone queueing for busy sailings on the lake.

From Bowness it was the 508 to Penrith on a Dart. This is seasonal – March to October – as it goes across the Kirkstone Pass which is not always accessible in winter. And presumably not enough passengers then either. Wow!! What incredible scenery! There was time for a photo stop at the summit by the Kirkstone Inn and fabulous views out of both side of the bus all the way along. Further on the route runs alongside the shores of Ullswater and there are lots of decent views over the lake there too. Then through Patterdale and another short pause to wait time in Glenridding. The normal route through Pooley Bridge was closed due to repairs to the bridge so we went a different way to Penrith, arriving slightly early. I’ll try and do the missing section another time – maybe on an open topper. Plenty of custom on the 508 – double figures of passengers all the way with people getting on and off all over the place. This must be one of England’s most beautiful bus routes – on a good day. An absolute must do.

I only had 10 minutes in Penrith, I plan to give this more time on another trip, before getting an X5 to Keswick. This route is pretty much along or parallel to the A66 on double deck Scanias. Again it is scenic with good distant views. I had been to Keswick before, a trip which included the 78 open topper to Seatoller and back which is another incredibly beautiful route. This time I was just heading gently back so I got the main road 555 south. The summer enhanced timetable had just finished so now hourly, the 14.30 was very busy, reasonably full upstairs. I had done this before sitting on the right hand side with great views, including the lakes being passed – but they were pretty much as good on the left too. We met another 555 at Grasmere and this looked full with standing passengers. I had considered getting off at Grasmere for perhaps 20 minutes and getting the 599 south but the next bus through to Kendal would have been the next 555 and as this was running about 15 minutes late already and no doubt would have a good load heading south I decided against it. Grasmere was thronging with tourists but seemed a little artificial – looked like just tat shops. So I continued to Kendal and finished the trip with an X6 back to Grange over Sands. This was the Monday to Friday ‘extra’ run and was a fairly old Trident, which looks like it stays in Kendal all day – although no doubt the drivers change around. Time to stroll down under the railway to the bayside again, the tide was in and it looked quite different from the morning. Then the long trek home.

Comparing to the past - where bus services still run they have clearly improved, especially in the tourist heart of the Lakes. But other places – especially the west – are much worse. Nothing at Broughton in Furness, Millom, St Bees, nothing down the coast south of Egremont – but the train service here has probably improved. Also in the east, the old Kendal to Penrith service via Shap is little more than a school run, almost nothing to Appleby, Sedbergh etc. Again there is a train service in parts which has probably improved.

A fantastic day out. Well worth a 500 mile round trip and a night in a Travelodge! Mostly on an £11.50 Stagecoach day ticket. I cannot commend this trip enough on a sunny day – its brilliant.