National Rail (BR) double arrow logo.

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Haig paxton

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It is my opinion that the double arrow logo should be used a lot more. If ATOC or National Rail truly are "Britain's train companies working together" then they should present a uniform image. Now I'm not proposing a nationwide livery but I am proposing a more prominent use of the double arrow. It's already featured on road signs and outside stations as well as on all ticket stock. I think it should now be applied somewhere on all trains, perhaps on train doors, or carriage ends, somewhere passengers can see it. I would extend this to literature and posters. It would ensure some continuety at franchise changeovers too.
 
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Harbornite

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They might as well rename it as British Rail, now that would be good! Having said that, it might seem odd if there are trains going round with two sets of logos.
 

Islineclear3_1

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It was a brilliant logo in BR days used to signify "there and back" and it was universally understood by all. And I liked the way it was tweaked on the former Southern Region 4VEG (luggage VEP) to look like a plane taking off.

Agreed it is still ubiquitous on outside railway station signs but since privatisation, companies have wanted to use their own "stamp".

I wouldn't complain if it was brought back though...
 

Haig paxton

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They might as well rename it as British Rail, now that would be good! Having said that, it might seem odd if there are trains going round with two sets of logos.


Well even in BR days this was happening, on the SPT trains, both logos were fetured. I mean something subtle so the main operator logo still takes precedence.
 

LeeLivery

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Agreed, double arrow should be on all trains, all stations (yes, that includes you, London Overground) and on all publications like posters, maps, timetables etc. Its not difficult to understand two logos. London Buses have roundels and operator - everyone understands it; as does the Barcelona Metro outside stations.
 

Helvellyn

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In Network SouthEast days, trains ran with both the BR double arrow logo and the NSE logo and legend
If I recall NSE started using it less in favour of greater prominence for the red/blue/grey lozenge. InterCity ditched it on trains with the Swallow livery, and I think it had a lot less prominence on timetables as time went on. Only Regional Railways/ScotRail kept it as a visible part of the logo.
 

2392

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Indeed yes. One quite homourous thing springs to mind. If you see prewar printed poster type adverts for the "foreign" [i.e. none British] market advertising for the Big 4 plus the London Passenger Transport Board. They are collectivally advertised as "British Railways."
 

yorksrob

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Whilst I would like to see more prominence of the double arrow at stations, one thing I think is definitely missing from all stations is a national network map. I don't really see how the railway can be said to be promoting itself if it doesn't tell people where it goes.

There should be one at every station, but for NR ones in particular, there's really no excuse for not having one (and yes, it should include a double arrow in the corner).
 

gimmea50anyday

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In Network SouthEast days, trains ran with both the BR double arrow logo and the NSE logo and legend

On locos the BR logo was replaced with the route brand before the NSE lettering, usually on the 73's and 50's. Cannot recall the route branding being applied on the 33's and 47's but they may have done. On one example, 50 033, the name plate of the loco was positioned in place of the route branding thereby creating the slogan "Glorious Network SouthEast"
 

Haig paxton

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I think the train doors would be the best place to position the logo. That's all that's needed to remind people it's one network. There are people out there who still do not realise that for example between Aberdeen and Dundee they have a choice of three operators. Some still assume because they buy a ticket from a Scotrail station then they must catch a Scotrail train.
 

PR1Berske

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The double arrow is one of the most recognisable and iconic logos of its time. In my idle hours I think about how a replacement might look: nothing ckmes close to the original.
 

HowardGWR

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I can't see any benefit of puttng the logo on trains at all and it would also clash with any sleek design and colour scheme that the TOC is using. It's bad enough that they have to paint the doors a different colour. LU trains are already distinct from NR trains, so that seems enough.
I do thnk that the NR logo should be more prominent outside some stations and better maintained (some covered by tree branches, some, poorly sited), but this is an infrastructure thread item.
 

RailAleFan

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Only discovered very recently that the official Sealink version of the BR logo had the arrows the other way round, making an "S".

Except for either side of the funnel, where the forward pointing arrow was always on top. That would never have got past any marcomms department i've ever worked with :)
 

Clip

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Agreed, double arrow should be on all trains, all stations (yes, that includes you, London Overground) and on all publications like posters, maps, timetables etc. Its not difficult to understand two logos. London Buses have roundels and operator - everyone understands it; as does the Barcelona Metro outside stations.

LO do use it on stations they share with NR operators though - and for those that dont passengers dont really care as they know they can use their oyster so thats all that counts.

The totems outside stations themselves now are the only place where it should be shown as it denotes a railway station is there - especially for people not familiar with the area, having it on it a train to denote its a train is a bit silly and would just look daft especially on the doors.
 

HowardGWR

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LO do use it on stations they share with NR operators though - and for those that dont passengers dont really care as they know they can use their oyster so thats all that counts.

The totems outside stations themselves now are the only place where it should be shown as it denotes a railway station is there - especially for people not familiar with the area, having it on it a train to denote its a train is a bit silly and would just look daft especially on the doors.

Indeed, as I already wrote (just up there), unless we are going to plant Corsican pines outside all stations.

(in GWR joke :D ).
 

Sod

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The idea behind the Sealink version of the double-chevron is to show that ships pass each other port-to-port (left-hand side to left-hand side),whereas trains conventionally (please note the latter word!) pass each other right-hand side to right-hand side in the UK.

The use of the reversed Sealink logo (thus the conventional BR form) on the starboard side of the funnel has always foxed - what could possibly be the benefit of this? What could it be trying to say?
 

Gareth

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I used to get the BR logo mixed up with the HTV logo as a very young child...

 

snowball

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The use of the reversed Sealink logo (thus the conventional BR form) on the starboard side of the funnel has always foxed - what could possibly be the benefit of this? What could it be trying to say?
Isn't it so that on each side the upper arrow shows the direction of travel of the ship?
 

Spartacus

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An unconventional use of the sealink logo is at Glasshoughton station, a sign from the car park towards the station has always carried the reversed double arrows, miles from the coastline!
 

tankmc

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Totally agree with this. When you take out a franchise you taken on there branding so why is rail franchising different?
 

Frontera2

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In Network SouthEast days, trains ran with both the BR double arrow logo and the NSE logo and legend

Only in the relative early days of NSE. By 1990 or thereabouts, the trains only carried the NSE logo and name. Indeed when the 442s were introduced in 1988 they didn't have the double arrow
 

bicbasher

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The double arrow logo is on the majority of NR stations and as mentioned at LO stations where they share with NR TOCs.

However, is it really necessary to have it back on the trains? No, unless we return to the franchised TOC's coming under public ownership, with the exception of those under the public concession model such as Merseyrail and London Overground. Also LUL services which operate on NR metals.
 

Harbornite

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Oddly enough, I read recently in a back issue of the Railway mag that DB or EWS had removed the BR emblems from their 90's or 92's due to copyright or whatever, yet there's no complaints about the locos currently in service with BR logos, which is good.
 

LeeLivery

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LO do use it on stations they share with NR operators though - and for those that dont passengers dont really care as they know they can use their oyster so thats all that counts.

The totems outside stations themselves now are the only place where it should be shown as it denotes a railway station is there - especially for people not familiar with the area, having it on it a train to denote its a train is a bit silly and would just look daft especially on the doors.

Yes I know they use it at station with other operators, one of my local stations is LO & Southern. Not all LO passengers are using oyster cards. We've got a situation where LO staff are denying LO is a NR operator and TfL are calling everything else National Rail implying that LO isn't. This is simply lying. It's integrated with the NR ticketing system, including railcards and should be shown as such at all stations. If Merseyrail can have the double arrow at stations, there is no reason why LO can't.
 

3141

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Totally agree with this. When you take out a franchise you taken on there branding so why is rail franchising different?

I think that issue arises because on our railways the word "franchise" has a different meaning from the one it has almost everywhere else. Our train operating companies aren't franchises in the normal meaning of the word. I remember Christopher Garnett of GNER saying that really what they had was a management contract under which they were required to operate a specified minimum level of service and could run more services if they wanted. But even the term "management contract" has, in the railway context, come to have its own meaning, which is the arrangement made when a TOC cannot meet its franchise commitments and an arrangement is made for it to continue to run the service for a specified fee (as with GNER's second franchise).
 
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