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National Rail & British Transport Police campaign regarding sexual harassment on the Railway

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ComUtoR

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I’m sure you’d be over the moon if your 14 year old daughter came home in tears because a man had spent an entire train journey leering at her, eyeing her up,
Happened to my Daughter and Sister on different occasions. A man was sitting there staring at them for the journey. Then as they got up and moved just said "you're very pretty"

Both of them found the experience pretty terrifying.

Another female member of staff had a similar experience but the man then exposed himself

I've read some of the daily logs and there are similar incidents on a regular basis.

I think the incidents that happen on trains would shock most people. Trains can be a very scary and intimidating place for some.

A poster is a small reminder that we should watch our behaviour and be more mindful of how it impacts others.
 
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skyhigh

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How would you determine if it is of a sexual manner or not?
Come on, surely it's obvious? Or do you need it spelled out to you?
The police would have no legal grounds to take any action and said fella would not be breaking any law.
Well, for a start Byelaw 6:
6. Unacceptable behaviour (1) No person shall use any threatening, abusive, obscene or offensive language on the railway. (2) No person shall behave in a disorderly, indecent or offensive manner on the railway. (3) No person shall write, draw, paint or fix anything on the railway. (4) No person shall soil any part of the railway. (5) No person shall damage or detach any part of the railway. (6) No person shall spit on the railway. (7) No person shall drop litter or leave waste on the railway. (8) No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway.
Sexual staring could definitely come under 6(2) and 6(8). If a complaint is made, that's enough for police to require details from the person and they could also be removed from the train. If several complaints are made regarding the same person, then you can investigate further action. And Railway Byelaws are the very basic end of the scale.
 

Wolfie

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I'd suggest anyone who feels unsafe by being looked at or stared at seek psychological help. I don't see why people should change their behaviour, by crossing the street etc because of someone else's irrational fear. I for one would not avoid sitting near to a woman on a train and would not avoid looking in their direction. Their fear is their problem, not mine. For the record, I don't find women sexually attractive at all but I do feel heterosexual men are being unfairly vilified.
As a heterosexual male l don't in the slightest feel vilified by having behaviour which might make others feel uncomfortable drawn to my attention so l can avoid inadvertently doing so. Most decent people are only too happy to avoid discomforting others unnecessarily.

Oh, and my daughter is currently younger than teenaged, but l know that anyone staring at her like that might very well, if l then pitched up, seriously regret it.

That’s a really worrying statement. As a male (which I am) I would feel uncomfortable being stared at, but as a female?… I have enough empathy to know that it can be terrifying in the right circumstances, especially when they are on their own and at night. They don’t need psychological help just for being scared of someone who is staring at them…. They’re scared becasue they don’t know the intentions of the person staring at them and they don’t know where they are going, maybe if they get off at the same stop then they might follow them?

Why would you want someone to feel uncomfortable around you? This poster isn’t about accidentally looking at someone… it’s about prolonged staring and possibly at their chest/bum/legs etc. Normal non sex attackers tend not to do that.

Also calling the police doesn’t mean an arrest, it’s so the police can build up a picture. This might be the 5th call they’ve had about the same fella on the same weeknight in one month, it really helps them put a picture together of the person in question and why they are doing it. This isn’t a case of the next person to lock eyes with a woman by mistake getting pounced on and thrown in a jail cell.
Absolutely. The comments are a variation in victim shaming too.

If you really worried your daughter's safely and really want to create an "absolutely safe environment" for her, you can call for legislation to restore the female compartments and female waiting rooms. Also the most important thing is to restore traditional education, such as the Victorian era when the genders were relatively isolated. Many European politicians are want "return to tradition" these days so it's not really outrageous.
How about men, sorry some men, take responsibility for their actions ratter than expect women to be isolated. Your comments are equally as BS as some communities demanding that women cover their hair and upper arms. Supposedly seeing them turns men into uncontrollable sex beasts. Strangely enough l have had the control to avoid that because l was properly brought up to respect women and not objectify them.
Hammer anyone who wasn't hard until they get the message. If they don't like it they can always go and live under the Taliban's enlightened rule.
 
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Journeyman

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I'd suggest anyone who feels unsafe by being looked at or stared at seek psychological help. I don't see why people should change their behaviour, by crossing the street etc because of someone else's irrational fear. I for one would not avoid sitting near to a woman on a train and would not avoid looking in their direction. Their fear is their problem, not mine. For the record, I don't find women sexually attractive at all but I do feel heterosexual men are being unfairly vilified.
That, in this day and age, is unbelievably clueless.
 

nlogax

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I'd suggest anyone who feels unsafe by being looked at or stared at seek psychological help. I don't see why people should change their behaviour, by crossing the street etc because of someone else's irrational fear. I for one would not avoid sitting near to a woman on a train and would not avoid looking in their direction. Their fear is their problem, not mine. For the record, I don't find women sexually attractive at all but I do feel heterosexual men are being unfairly vilified.

Just stumbled onto this thread and I wish I hadn't. Your comment... bloody hell.
 

Journeyman

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Just stumbled onto this thread and I wish I hadn't. Your comment... bloody hell.
I know. Victim blaming, much? Really quite shocking and depressing. No wonder most women default to considering every man a potential threat.
 

nlogax

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I know. Victim blaming, much? Really quite shocking and depressing. No wonder most women default to considering every man a potential threat.

Indeed. I do worry about this forum at times. Some are absolutely tone deaf to the realities of the world and to specific problems. A few go a step further and take great pride in it.
 

Journeyman

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Indeed. I do worry about this forum at times. Some are absolutely tone deaf to the realities of the world and to specific problems. A few go a step further and take great pride in it.
I know. There was a recent discussion where a poster positively revelled in refusing to address non-binary and trans people in the way they want to be addressed, and clearly enjoyed making them feel belittled and uncomfortable.

Horrible stuff. I also get absolutely infuriated when I see someone play the "heterosexual men are being victimised!!!" card. I'm a heterosexual man, and I know I've had a much easier and safer life than many other people as a result.
 

LowLevel

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We had this creature to deal with for a while and a number of my colleagues were instrumental in having him lifted. Sometimes he "looked", sometimes he spoke, sometimes he groped and kissed and the train incidents were not the only ones.

I think the consensus Yorky is that if you can't deal with the nuances of behaviour that isn't always physical or verbal then you should probably just carry on feeling butt-hurt about adverts, and leave those of us responsible for trying to make the railway a safe space for all to carry on doing so.
 

Journeyman

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We had this creature to deal with for a while and a number of my colleagues were instrumental in having him lifted. Sometimes he "looked", sometimes he spoke, sometimes he groped and kissed and the train incidents were not the only ones.
Glad you got him dealt with, he sounds foul. I can guarantee he probably tried to get away with a lot more, and probably did rather a lot of staring.
I think the consensus Yorky is that if you can't deal with the nuances of behaviour that isn't always physical or verbal then you should probably just carry on feeling butt-hurt about adverts, and leave those of us responsible for trying to make the railway a safe space for all to carry on doing so.
The correct reaction to the poster would be "hmm, I'd better make sure I don't cause any discomfort to anyone, and if I see anyone behaving in that way, maybe I should tip off the BTP".

Thinking "waaaah, I'm a heterosexual middle aged white man and I'm being vilified!!!" is absolutely not the right reaction.
 

GodAtum

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I completely agree that there's nothing wrong with the BTP highlighting this. However, my concern is those with disabilities. My friend who has tourettes looks completely normal but his "tick" is staring at people and licking his lips. He gets in trouble with the police a few times a year and has been punched in the face by an angry boyfriend.

I think increasing awareness of sexual harassment is very important, but people also need to be aware of disabilities.
 

NoOnesFool

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Sexual staring could definitely come under 6(2) and 6(8).
But staring is not actually doing anything. It's down to perception and that's just not good enough when it comes to law enforcement. Section 8 refers to molesting and things like that, quite easy to prove and quite clearly a crime.
 

bramling

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This to me is a very worrying thread, we seem to have people trying to justify staring at people as though it's their right, a perfectly normal pastime that shouldn't be questioned.
You really need to get real, your behaviour is not acceptable

I don’t think anyone is attempting to justify staring at people in the sustained and intimidating manner which seems to be the premise of the poster campaign.

However it does seem to open up something of a can of worms should people take a different interpretation from it. There are people who are unreasonably precious about their so-called privacy (I remember taking a photo of a disused railway structure some years ago, and a woman came running out of a nearby house objecting to even the possibility of her car being pictured in the photo, claiming it was a gross invasion of her human rights). This would seem to be a potential gift for such individuals, whose motivation is little to do with privacy and everything to do with their own self-importance.

I don’t object to the cause behind the campaign, however it sounds like the wording needs tightening up a bit. The fact that people have had to clarify it here would suggest there’s too much room for interpretation.
 

stuu

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But staring is not actually doing anything. It's down to perception and that's just not good enough when it comes to law enforcement. Section 8 refers to molesting and things like that, quite easy to prove and quite clearly a crime.
Yes it is, that's the point you seem to be repeatedly missing. There is a massive difference between idly staring into space and aggressively staring at someone. Speak to any woman about it if you don't believe me or the other people on here.

As a thought experiment, imagine you are on a train on your own and a big man sits opposite you and stares constantly. Would you be OK with that?
 

D6130

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Taking a different point of view, my wife, who is understandably a wee bit nervous of travelling alone on trains and buses in the evening, is quite concerned that the detailed descriptions of the various types of sexual harassment shown on the screens might actually encourage sex pests to try new methods to get their perverted thrills.
 

WestRiding

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Can't really be bothered with this thread, but a question did spring to mind. Train packed, every seat taken. Sat at a seat of 4, around a table, on the aisle. What exactly is the expected etiquette? Gawp at the floor for 2 hours? Stare out of the window across others space? Where do you look? This seems a very 2021 problem.
 

stuu

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Can't really be bothered with this thread, but a question did spring to mind. Train packed, every seat taken. Sat at a seat of 4, around a table, on the aisle. What exactly is the expected etiquette? Gawp at the floor for 2 hours? Stare out of the window across others space? Where do you look? This seems a very 2021 problem.
Strawman, if I ever I saw one

It's a 2021 problem because (a minority) of men have been allowed to get away with this sort of behaviour for years, that doesn't make it right
 

WestRiding

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Strawman, if I ever I saw one

It's a 2021 problem because (a minority) of men have been allowed to get away with this sort of behaviour for years, that doesn't make it right
Who said it made it right? I asked what the etiquette is for a busy train. Campaigns like this make it pretty awkward for fear of making eye contact over and over, as we all know it happens, unintentionally. Let's not pretend its never happened to us. So after say, the 6th time of it happening should the male passenger be worried that it might be construed as staring and end up on a charge, even though it takes two to make eye contact.
 

ainsworth74

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I asked what the etiquette is for a busy train.
Surely it's whatever most people do already? I tend to read a book, play with my phone or window gaze. I don't sit there and directly look at someone opposite as it seems rather rude at best and intimidating at worst.

I am honestly puzzled that this seems so difficult for people to grasp the difference between what is being warned against in this campaign and normal behaviour!
 

stuu

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Who said it made it right? I asked what the etiquette is for a busy train. Campaigns like this make it pretty awkward for fear of making eye contact over and over, as we all know it happens, unintentionally. Let's not pretend its never happened to us. So after say, the 6th time of it happening should the male passenger be worried that it might be construed as staring and end up on a charge, even though it takes two to make eye contact.
Because there is a massive difference between occasionally making eye contact and deliberately staring at another person. Which I would have thought any person with any level of social understanding is aware of
 

abn444

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Because there is a massive difference between occasionally making eye contact and deliberately staring at another person. Which I would have thought any person with any level of social understanding is aware of
You and I might know that but as @bramling says, that isn't the case for some people and that for some people just looking at them for a few seconds or looking at them in order to look out the window on a train with longitudinal seating such as LO services or the underground would be an issue even if you're not deliberately staring at them
 

43066

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I was on a train yesterday and was rather perplexed to see a notice on the display screen from National Rail and British Transport Police encouraging passengers to report people staring at them! I find it ridiculous. Staring doesn't harm anyone and also there could be endless reasons why someone is looking at you (could look familiar, could look ill and a cause for concern, could be looking at your clothing thinking "I want a coat like that."). How would you even police that? Are we really moving in to a world where it is illegal to look at someone?

Have you seen this message? What are your thoughts on this? Would you call the police if someone looked at you?

I can see where you’re coming from to be fair. I agree with the overall sentiment behind the campaign but it seems odd for that particular poster to focus on a very low level behaviour which very much depends on context and is open to subjective interpretation. I’ve been stared at quite a few times over the last year or so - I assumed it was because I wasn’t wearing a mask - but perhaps it was sexual!?

I’m surprised the OP has been given such a rough ride on this thread for asking a perfectly legitimate question.

I don’t think anyone is attempting to justify staring at people in the sustained and intimidating manner which seems to be the premise of the poster campaign.

However it does seem to open up something of a can of worms should people take a different interpretation from it. There are people who are unreasonably precious about their so-called privacy (I remember taking a photo of a disused railway structure some years ago, and a woman came running out of a nearby house objecting to even the possibility of her car being pictured in the photo, claiming it was a gross invasion of her human rights). This would seem to be a potential gift for such individuals, whose motivation is little to do with privacy and everything to do with their own self-importance.

I don’t object to the cause behind the campaign, however it sounds like the wording needs tightening up a bit. The fact that people have had to clarify it here would suggest there’s too much room for interpretation.

100% agreed. Focussing on behaviour which is clearly and obviously illegal would be better, especially given how thinly spread the BTP are.

The risk with this kind of campaign is that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy: the poster goes up, a load of reports are received of “sexual staring” (based purely on individual interpretation) and “sexual harassment increases” are the headlines, adding to the current climate of fear, where people increasingly seem to regard their fellow human beings as a threat.
 

skyhigh

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But staring is not actually doing anything. It's down to perception and that's just not good enough when it comes to law enforcement. Section 8 refers to molesting and things like that, quite easy to prove and quite clearly a crime.
And that is a load of tripe. Staring is doing something. 6(8) basically says
No person shall wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway.
'Molest' isn't meant in a sexual manner here - it would be dealt with far more seriously. If you stare (deliberately, continually, in a sexual manner so to make someone uncomfortable) you are interfering with their comfort. I've spent years working under the Byelaws- this is 100% covered.
 

Highlandspring

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Happened to my Daughter and Sister on different occasions. A man was sitting there staring at them for the journey. Then as they got up and moved just said "you're very pretty"

Both of them found the experience pretty terrifying.

Another female member of staff had a similar experience but the man then exposed himself

I've read some of the daily logs and there are similar incidents on a regular basis.

I think the incidents that happen on trains would shock most people. Trains can be a very scary and intimidating place for some.

A poster is a small reminder that we should watch our behaviour and be more mindful of how it impacts others.
Yes exactly, people don't realise how common this is on the railway, there are incidents reported every single day. The attitude of those who are deliberately missing the point on this thread is shocking and absolutely sickening. Some posters need to examine their conscience carefully.
 

WestRiding

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You and I might know that but as @bramling says, that isn't the case for some people and that for some people just looking at them for a few seconds or looking at them in order to look out the window on a train with longitudinal seating such as LO services or the underground would be an issue even if you're not deliberately staring at them
Very good point, longitudinal seating. The thing is, people class staring as all sorts of different things. So we're saying occasionally making eye contact for maybe 6 times is ok, but the other person, through their own judgement thought twice was too many.

Most people should however be ok, because all modern society tend to do these days is play on their phones.

I can see the headline now, 'Downs Syndrome Male charged and sentenced for Sexual Staring on board the 1942 from Liverpool'
 

O L Leigh

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Yes it is, that's the point you seem to be repeatedly missing. There is a massive difference between idly staring into space and aggressively staring at someone. Speak to any woman about it if you don't believe me or the other people on here.

I would say that it goes just slightly further than that.

Menace, like offence, is not in the actions or intent of the person carrying out an act but in the perception of the person towards whom it is directed. It doesn't matter if a person intends to offend or menace them, if that person feels offended or menaced then that is more than sufficient.

Some posters need to have a long hard look at themselves.

Think that would be allowed...? :lol:
 
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