National Rail Bye Law 17

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by kg94sat, 17 Jan 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. kg94sat

    kg94sat Member

    Messages:
    25
    Joined:
    17 Jan 2012
    Hello All

    With reference to National Rail Byelaw http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/uploads/nationalrailwaybyelaws.pdf,

    Section 17:

    17. Compulsory Ticket Areas
    (1) No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has
    with him a valid ticket.
    (2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
    when asked to do so by an authorised person.
    (3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
    (i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
    validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
    he began his journey; or
    (ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
    permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
    (iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
    valid ticke


    I notice that Section 24: Enforcement, excludes the breach of above Section 17. What happens when a passenger is in breach of Section 17? Why is it excluded from the Byelaw.

    Thanks

    kg
     
  2. wintonian

    wintonian Established Member

    Messages:
    4,889
    Joined:
    15 Jan 2010
    Location:
    Hampshire
    Is this a general equiey or did you have a particular scenario in mind?

    Knowing this will help people to give an answer more taylord to the circumstances.

    Sent from my HTC Desire S
     
  3. kg94sat

    kg94sat Member

    Messages:
    25
    Joined:
    17 Jan 2012
    Scenario: Say a passenger travels from any of the national rail penalty fare stations(but non-compulsory ticket area) in London to Waterloo without appropriate ticket. In waterloo station, the passenger approaches a RPI to purchase a ticket. The RPI refuses to issue a one way ticket or issue a penalty fare notice, but starts taking statement (supposedly with intention to prosecute)

    If he were to be prosecuted subsequently under National Rail Byelaw, which is the appropriate section

    Section 17(1) or
    Section 18(1)

    Kg

    -------------Section 18(1) for reference-------------------------

    18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
    (1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
    any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
    valid ticket entitling him to travel.
    (2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
    when asked to do so by an authorised person.
    (3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

    (i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
    validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
    he began his journey; or
    (ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
    permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
    (iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
    valid ticket
     
    Last edited: 17 Jan 2012
  4. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    34,605
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    South West Trains do not have any Compulsory Ticket Areas (CTAs) last time I checked. For example there is a CTA at Clapham Junction but that's the Overground platform only, as far as I know.

    I was shocked in Croydon when I discovered that it is impossible to enter some houses without entering a CTA. Anyone who lives at the houses affected appears to be technically committing an offence whenever they step outside their drive.
     
  5. kg94sat

    kg94sat Member

    Messages:
    25
    Joined:
    17 Jan 2012
    Ok. So basically Southwest do not have any CTAs, so that they can charge people on 18(1). Makes sense :)

    So, let us instead of Waterloo assume that the station is Marlyebone (which has a CTA), what happens then?
     
    Last edited: 18 Jan 2012
  6. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    4,965
    Joined:
    1 Mar 2008
    I don't think it is. Contrast National Rail Enquiries' description of Marylebone:
    with that of Waterloo:
     
  7. Eagle

    Eagle Established Member

    Messages:
    7,108
    Joined:
    20 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
    I'm trying to conceive of how that's possible (unless their front doors open directly onto the platform, which admittedly would be quite handy in the morning :lol:). Are the roads part of the CTA? How can they be?
     
  8. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    34,605
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    I don't think the roads are, but the pavements are. As for how, that's because we elect people who make these decisions. Again, it's biased toward car users, because I'd imagine someone driving a car out of their drive cannot be 'done' yet theoretically, to the letter of the law, someone walking could be. Now I know that they will use the defence "but we wouldn't use it like that" but just look at some of the appealing prosecutions for byelaw offences on railway ticketing matters. The byelaws are misused by some operators and should be rescinded and replaced with reasonable, fair, up-to-date byelaws that are fit for the 21st century and do not penalise innocent people who have no ill intentions.
     
  9. kg94sat

    kg94sat Member

    Messages:
    25
    Joined:
    17 Jan 2012
    John

    Agree with you.

    I had assumed that any area that has ticket barriers would be Compulsory Ticket Areas (areas where visitors can not enter). Hence, I had assumed that London Waterloo has a Compulsory Ticket Area.

    That is why in my example scenario, I changed the station to London Marylebone, which has a Compulsory Ticket Area
     
  10. Eagle

    Eagle Established Member

    Messages:
    7,108
    Joined:
    20 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
    Why? Are they railway property? And if so why just the pavements?
     
  11. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    34,605
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Actually I've found their get-out. After basically saying anyone entering/exiting certain driveways is commiting an offence it does pardon these people if they have not got on a tram...
    "No person at a tramstop or a station compulsory ticket area shall be in breach of this Byelaw 19 unless he came there by alighting from a tram."
    So the Croydon Tramline Byelaws in respect of CTAs are quite different to Railway Byelaws. On the Railway Byelaws you can be issued a penalty fare merely for entering the CTA, there is no need to have travelled. But on the tram network the offence does not apply unless you got off a tram.

    But imagine if you are waiting for someone outside their house, and a tram arrives. If the tram RPIs are anything like some of the RPIs I've seen and heard of in the London area (not up North; we're civilised here!) then it would not at all surprise me if that person could be accused of exiting from a tram and it would be their word against an RPI, and Courts may incorrectly believe that all RPIs tell the truth all of the time. I'd hope not, but I have concerns.

    Penalty Fare schemes are open to abuse by a minority of rogue RPIs. I know; I've seen it and heard about it.
     
  12. wintonian

    wintonian Established Member

    Messages:
    4,889
    Joined:
    15 Jan 2010
    Location:
    Hampshire
    I'm not convinced.

    I suspect that a right of access or a presumed right of access would trump the railway by-laws/ penalty fare regulations in a situation like this.

    Still it's quite an oddity.
     
  13. kg94sat

    kg94sat Member

    Messages:
    25
    Joined:
    17 Jan 2012
    So getting back to

    Section 24(of National Rail Byelaw): Enforcement

    (1) Offence and level of fines
    Any person who breaches any of these Byelaws commits an offence and,
    with the exception of Byelaw 17, may be liable for each such offence to a
    penalty not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale

    Why is Byelaw 17 excluded from Enforcement?
     
  14. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    4,965
    Joined:
    1 Mar 2008
    I think the explanation for this may lie in the definition of Compulsory Ticket Area.
    It seems that the tram stop platforms are Compulsory ticket areas only for people alighting from trams.
     
  15. Eagle

    Eagle Established Member

    Messages:
    7,108
    Joined:
    20 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
    Ah, so the pavement is a tram stop (so I was right the first time, their house opens onto a platform :P)

    Legally, the pavement is a right of way that can't be extinguished, and this law certainly overrides the CTA byelaws.

    (The same way that when they upgrade bits of the A1 to A1(M) they have to provide a parallel local road—motorways aren't rights of way. This is also why the A34 and the like aren't motorways.)
     
  16. wintonian

    wintonian Established Member

    Messages:
    4,889
    Joined:
    15 Jan 2010
    Location:
    Hampshire
    A pavement is only a right of way if it is on a public highway, there are many examples of private roads up and down the country, some of which also have pavements.
     
  17. Eagle

    Eagle Established Member

    Messages:
    7,108
    Joined:
    20 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
    Indeed, but I take it this is a public road we're referring to.
     
  18. kg94sat

    kg94sat Member

    Messages:
    25
    Joined:
    17 Jan 2012
    Yorkie / John

    You bring up an interesting point. The London Tram Link conditions of carriage explicitly specify what is a Compulsory Ticket Area.

    Now for National Rail Byelaw, there is no explicit definition of compulsory ticket area. how does one define a "compulsory ticket area" for the purpose of the byelaw
     
    Last edited: 18 Jan 2012
  19. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    4,965
    Joined:
    1 Mar 2008
    "Compulsory ticket area" has the meaning defined in the appropriate Conditions, such as National Rail Conditions of Carriage Appendix A or London Tramlink Conditions of Travel Section 3.

    The Railway Byelaws are not "National Rail Byelaws". "National Rail" is a brand used by the Association of Train Operating Companies, a trade association.
     
    Last edited: 18 Jan 2012
  20. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    15,181
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    Regarding the original question, is the answer just that CTAs can only exist as part of a wider Penalty Fare scheme - so the issue of a Penalty Fare (when applicable) basically takes the place of the possible fine on the standard scale called up by the enforcement paragraph which is dealing with the more general case.

    Para 25. (1) of the byelaws defines a CTA. You just have to read right through. This is a similar definition to the CofC, quoted by John @ home although without the bit about arriving/departing on a train.
     
    Last edited: 18 Jan 2012
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page