National Rail iPhone App

[rosscbrown]

Howdy all,

A while ago I wrote asking about the validity of travelling to Edinburgh from Lockerbie going via Lockerbie. I remember that we decided that, as per the rules, this is potentially illegal due to the double backing between Lockerbie and Carlisle.

Over the last few months, I've tried various routes and it seems that while the route is potentially illegal, train managers are, for the most part, alright with the route. I've had the occasional issue with Train Managers telling me that I'm on the wrong train out of Edinburgh etc. I tend to have more issues going via Glasgow Queen Street on the Lockerbie to Glasgow Central leg which I believe to be a valid routing.

Anyway, today I looked up the last train to Edinburgh on the iPhone App from National Rail and was presented with trains with a change at Carlisle:

All trains:

With a change at Carlisle:

So what's going on? If their iPhone tells me that it is a route then I can travel via Carlisle on a Lockerbie > Edinburgh Any Route ticket?

 

[royaloak]

okay it is giving you the route but does it give you a ticket price. A similar thing happens down here, ie it gives you the route, but then tells me that I will need to buy seperate tickets!

 

[dave.addey]

Hi there,

I'm the developer of the NRE iPhone app (it's developed and sold by my company, Agant Ltd). The app (deliberately) doesn't display any ticket prices or validity at the moment, so the presence of a journey with changes doesn't necessarily mean that any particular ticket is valid for that journey. We may well add ticket validity info in the future (if we can find a usable way to do so on a 320x480 screen), but for now it's train times only. Hope this helps!

All the best,

Dave.

 

[rosscbrown]

Howdy Dave,

Thanks for your reply. The app is really great and I can't wait to see how it is developed. Showing valid routes only would be a great help but I guess that might be a lot of work to implement with all the various ticket types and restrictions.

Can the 'next train home' feature be extended: I'd like to have three favorite stations (home, city and work) as opposed to just having a home station. Because when I'm home, the feature is pretty much useless - if you catch my drift.

 

[dave.addey]

Hi Ross,

Good suggestion! We're considering a few different ways of expanding the "next train home" feature, and I wonder if what you're suggesting might be best achieved by creating several journey planner favourites, each of which has a "from" station of "[nearest station]" rather than a specific named station. That way, whenever you used the favourite, it would find the nearest station at that time (in the same way that "Next Train Home" does) and plan a journey from there. Would that do what you need?

 

[Aictos]

Pardon for asking but would a Blackberry version be possible?

 

[jon0844]

Have you downloaded Train Times (http://www.maxbridge.biz/TrainTimes.shtm)?

It's a front-end for the existing National Rail system, so not quite the same, but it seems to work well and is totally free.

I've used the iPhone App but really can't understand why it is so expensive. I can't even fully understand why you need to pay at all. There is a free alternative from XC for the iPhone though - or was.

Although a little more fiddly, I have bookmarks for most routes I travel and use the Journey Check service from Nexus Alpha - another free service. Not as slick as a dedicated app, which I suppose is what people want these days.

 

[Aictos]

Have you downloaded Train Times (http://www.maxbridge.biz/TrainTimes.shtm)?

It's a front-end for the existing National Rail system, so not quite the same, but it seems to work well and is totally free.

I've used the iPhone App but really can't understand why it is so expensive. I can't even fully understand why you need to pay at all. There is a free alternative from XC for the iPhone though - or was.

Although a little more fiddly, I have bookmarks for most routes I travel and use the Journey Check service from Nexus Alpha - another free service. Not as slick as a dedicated app, which I suppose is what people want these days.

Ah, ta very much,

 

[dave.addey]

I've used the iPhone App but really can't understand why it is so expensive. I can't even fully understand why you need to pay at all. There is a free alternative from XC for the iPhone though - or was.

Hi Jon,

The NRE-branded app isn't actually developed and sold by NRE. It's developed and sold by my company, Agant Ltd. We're a small independent iPhone development company based in the UK. Sadly we have to charge for our app to cover the cost of the initial development of the app (over 8 months of development before launch), and the ongoing development of new features for the app (you don't need a subscription to use the app, so the one-off payment you make when you buy the app has to cover all future development too). We also have a data license in place with ATOC to make sure our app is around for the long term.

You're quite right that there's also a free XC app out there, which also contains real-time data. Sadly we're not able to offer our NRE-branded app for free - unlike XC, we have to cover our development costs through app purchases alone. Hopefully the extra features in our app make it worth the one-off cost.

We're always open to suggestions for improving our NRE iPhone app - do let me know if you have any ideas or suggestions!

All the best,

Dave.

 

[jon0844]

Could you not consider the ad funded route? I'm sure rather a lot more people would download it if it was free, although I am not sure what sort of click-through there is on AdMob or similar (and what the payments are like).

Either that, or drop the price of the app to one of the lower bands?

 

[Dai.]

In all honesty I'm appalled that NRE have got someone to help them jump on the iPhone bandwagon and not taken into consideration those without the iPhone, me for example, I have no plans to get the iPhone as I don't find it'll help me in any form and I'm not switching networks for a phone and I would ideally like to see them make an app for other phones aswell as I would find it handy to have a Java App for train times.


Also weren't the trains disrupted today through Scotland?

I've been hearing around that there are problems on the line up there, by hearing around, gossip around where I live which is in Wales but still!

 

[brompton rail]

Hi Jon,

The NRE-branded app isn't actually developed and sold by NRE. It's developed and sold by my company, Agant Ltd. We're a small independent iPhone development company based in the UK. Sadly we have to charge for our app to cover the cost of the initial development of the app (over 8 months of development before launch), and the ongoing development of new features for the app (you don't need a subscription to use the app, so the one-off payment you make when you buy the app has to cover all future development too). We also have a data license in place with ATOC to make sure our app is around for the long term.

You're quite right that there's also a free XC app out there, which also contains real-time data. Sadly we're not able to offer our NRE-branded app for free - unlike XC, we have to cover our development costs through app purchases alone. Hopefully the extra features in our app make it worth the one-off cost.

We're always open to suggestions for improving our NRE iPhone app - do let me know if you have any ideas or suggestions!

All the best,

Dave.

Dave, I bought your app as soon as it was available and find it essential for travelling by train. I use it regularly and consider it well worth the money, which is a one off payment anyway. Fell down a little today on my journey Doncaster (08:08) to York and return just after 11, but the problem was NRE's as they did not show the 06.00 and 06.15 EC services from KC as running at all. My return by the 10:06 YRK to DON wasn't there either but as it was over an hour late leaving York (signalling problems at Northallerton) and 2 hours late arriving at Doncaster (12:28 instead of booked 10:30) owing to points failure at Hambleton North junc., I didn't mind, 'cause if it been on time at York I wouldn't have caught it!!

The app might be improved by a code showing TOC in list of calling points, but it isn't important.

 

[A60K]

In all honesty I'm appalled that NRE have got someone to help them jump on the iPhone bandwagon and not taken into consideration those without the iPhone, me for example, I have no plans to get the iPhone as I don't find it'll help me in any form and I'm not switching networks for a phone and I would ideally like to see them make an app for other phones aswell as I would find it handy to have a Java App for train times.

Use the XC app as mentioned above, or just use the internet National Rail sites - WAP, PDA or full desktop depending on your phone and preference. Simples


Not having the iPhone doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the information you need to get - like me you don't see the need for an iPhone, and you can get by just as well without it.

 

[jon0844]

You also have an app called 'Safari' on the iPhone, which can easily access WAP, PDA or full-web versions of Journey Check or National Rail.

Anyone can write a fancy front-end (enough people have over the years), but I will admit that the iPhone one does look good. Mind you, Apple have guidelines that every developer must adhere to in order to get approved, so that isn't just luck.

 

[digitaltoast]

Anyway, today I looked up the last train to Edinburgh on the iPhone App from National Rail

Can I first of all ask - why did you pay £5 to look up train times, when there's a more fully-featured official free app map and real-time data version from Crosscountry trains?

And can I ask everyone else, please don't download or use the National Rail app - I've wondered for months why NRE would CHARGE to find timetables, when there's a perfectly good free alternative.

And guess what? While randomly browsing this morning, I found the answer:

National Rail Enquiries investigated for threatening app developers

The train info service sent lawyers' threats to the UK Train Times mobile web app and the MyRail iPhone app, both free, prompting them to shut down for 'legal reasons'. Coincidentally, in the same month it shut down MyRail, National Rail Enquiries debuted its own, official app, made by Agant, on the iPhone store, costing a ridiculous £4.99.

Now the Office of the Rail Regulator (ORR) says (via Telegraph.co.uk) it's "investigating the supply of Real Time Train Information (RTTI) (by NRE) under the Competition Act 1998, having been made aware of concerns in this area including from members of the public, and from Members of Parliament on behalf of their constituents. RTTI is a key input into the provision of live train running information to passengers through media such as train information websites or services accessed over mobile phones."

National Rail Enquiries investigated over iPhone app.

The Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) announced today that it is investigating complaints about National Rail Enquiries’ handling of real-time train information in regard to My Rail Lite, the free iPhone application that was removed from the iTunes App Store earlier this year after a licensing dispute.
As I wrote a couple of months ago, National Rail Enquiries (NRE), which controls the data, later launched their own train times application, priced at £4.99. Now, the ORR is investigating claims that NRE’s handling of the data breached the Competition Act 1998.
A spokesman for the Office of Rail Regulation said: “The reason we are investigating is that we suspect that NRE may have imposed some unfair terms on third parties.”
He said: “I know we’ve received several complaints from people with iPhones.”
A statement on the ORR website says the regulator has also received complaints from MPs on behalf of their constituents.
If the ORR does decide that NRE has breached the Act, they could impose a fine or force the data to be made available under a specific licensing agreement. Their decision could mean that My Rail Lite returns to the App Store. It could even mean greater access to real-time train data for all kinds of other services.

The ending made me chuckle, though.

Nobody from NRE was available for comment when I called earlier.

Yeah, good luck with that one!

I've love to know when this review is due.

Meantime, PLEASE download the free Crosscountry app instead.

 

[dave.addey]

And can I ask everyone else, please don't download or use the National Rail app - I've wondered for months why NRE would CHARGE to find timetables, when there's a perfectly good free alternative.

Hi Digitaltoast,

The NRE app isn't from NRE. It's developed and sold by my company (Agant Ltd.). We're a small independent iPhone development company, who licensed the NRE data feeds and brand to create the iPhone train times app we would want on our own iPhones.

Unlike Crosscountry, we can't afford to offer our app for free - we've put over 10 months of development into the app, and we have to charge for the app to recoup the development time we've put in.

We really do believe the app is worth £4.99 as a one-off payment, and we've got lots of free updates planned for the future too. I'm sure you'll like our app if you do give it a try, but as you say, the Crosscountry app is available as a free alternative for those who don't want to pay for ours.

I've love to know when this review is due.

The review finished in December 2009, and found that ATOC hadn't been in any way anti-competitive. Not too surprising really, given that a) it's not NRE's app, it's ours, and b) we don't have any kind of exclusivity on the real-time data anyway.

Nobody from NRE was available for comment when I called earlier.

From what I understand, that's because he called at 6pm on a Friday

Meantime, PLEASE download the free Crosscountry app instead.

...or give our NRE app a try, and support a small independent company who are trying to make great real-time train travel software for the iPhone

- Dave

 

[Failed Unit]

Could you not consider the ad funded route? I'm sure rather a lot more people would download it if it was free, although I am not sure what sort of click-through there is on AdMob or similar (and what the payments are like).

Either that, or drop the price of the app to one of the lower bands?

To be honest I would rather pay £5 and have no adverts, As you have said yourself there are many alternatives including using the national rail website itself via Safari, the TOC's own website.

I may have more money than sense but I have no problem paying the £5 and as long as I don't need to pay for updates (I haven't so far), then I am a happy bunny. The platform information feature is very useful, it means that when my East Coast train is running late into Edinburgh I know which direction I need to run to get my Stirling train. Nothing more annoying then to run up the bridge on Platform 8 just to find that the Stirling train is going to arrive on 9! It has saved me missing the connection, which is worth £5 itself!

 

[digitaltoast]

HThe NRE app isn't from NRE. It's developed and sold by my company (Agant Ltd.). We're a small independent iPhone development company, who licensed the NRE data feeds and brand to create the iPhone train times app we would want on our own iPhones. [snip]
...or give our NRE app a try, and support a small independent company who are trying to make great real-time train travel software for the iPhone

Ah, OK! Fair enough - and scrolling up the thread to the middle bit I didn't read before, it looks like you've already pointed this out (and I should read entire threads first!).

However, I think part of the blame lies with the National Rail Enquiries site:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/iphone/

"Get up the to the minute train information in the palm of your hand with the Agant iPhone application powered by National Rail Enquiries".

To be honest, although I'm not dyslexic, I could swear I read it as "Agent iPhone" (as in, ticket agent. Like Agent Orange but less deadly!). I hadn't really clicked that it was an independent app. I just though it was a bit weird that National Rail would take legal action against free methods of finding data, then charging for their own.

I mean, more power to your elbow if you're a small developer and people are paying. It's a free market and you seem to be getting good reviews for it and have won an award. Perhaps you should insist that National Rail make it clear that you are NOT National Rail, then people might be less hostile. The idea of paying £5 to find a train time out and not even be able to book it ... well, maybe it's just me on that!

But then, I never really "got" the whole reason 340 people paid $999 for an application called "I Am Rich" which displayed a jewel on the screen, and did nothing else. This is one reason I don't own an iphone!

 

[jon0844]

The ending made me chuckle, though.
Yeah, good luck with that one!

A comment was unavailable due to lack of staff!


Actually, I am not suggesting for one second that people boycott the app or anything silly like that. If you want it, buy it. It looks good and does the job.

However, it's worth mentioning that there are free ways to get the information too.

My problem isn't about the app, but the fact that nobody else seems able to do a free app because they'll be stopped from getting the information by ATOC.

Also, with regards to the ad funded model, if most apps are anything to go by, you have the free version and the paid-for version. You can then opt to 'suffer' the ads or pay to remove them. It's a fairly successful model, although I can't comment further without knowing the average revenue generation for an ad-funded version.


One question about the app and the mention above of platform information; is this always going to be correct or is it the planned/scheduled platform? It's great to say what platform a train will depart from, but if it changes at the last moment - does NRE update this? The problem I've had is that you see it written on a website and may no longer check the display boards (why would you when you've got this great app/website giving you the info instead) and can get caught out when you go to that platform.

 

[Failed Unit]

One question about the app and the mention above of platform information; is this always going to be correct or is it the planned/scheduled platform? It's great to say what platform a train will depart from, but if it changes at the last moment - does NRE update this? The problem I've had is that you see it written on a website and may no longer check the display boards (why would you when you've got this great app/website giving you the info instead) and can get caught out when you go to that platform.

From my experience it is the real platform information and is sometime not avialable until the last minute. So in that sense you suffer the same as do on the station, not get told for ages and get last minute platform alterations!

I normally check just before we go into the last tunnel on entering Waverley.

Yes I still glance at the monitor on the way past, but at least you know what direction you should be running!