• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

National Route Number Plan

Status
Not open for further replies.

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
Although this is an April Fool from Omnibuses, I was wondering about the merits of this idea and being all in favour of integrated transport it made me think; could this actually be implemented in a workable way?

In case anyone was wondering Norman's DfT Door to Door strategy does actually exist.

The Department of Transport has recently announced that it has been looking at a “strategy to improve transport integration and encourage people to make more sustainable choices”

As part of this, it has been reviewing best practice in Europe, looking particularly at Switzerland & Germany. Consequently, Norman Baker has announced a number of proposals to help boost interchange between the various UK transport modes.

One European practice that caught the Dft’s eye was the network mapping, using not just colours but also the unique numbering plans for both bus and rail. You can see the Zurich example by clicking on the image, below.

As part of this strategy, British route numbers that have been existed for generations will be swept aside to help modal integration.

To understand the DfT’s thinking, however, we need to start with the railway. The DfT plans to mandate ATOC to assign line numbers (called the National Route Number Plan (NRNP) to their services. A four digit system is proposed that would consist of an alphabetic character, followed by three digits:

High speed express services would be of the form “Hnnn” (note, not InterCity)
Suburban lines outside London would be “Snnn”
Regional expresses “Rnnn”
Stopping services “Tnnn”
London & South East lines would be “Lnnn”

“M” prefixes would be available for the DLR, Underground, trams, Newcastle metro, Manchester Metrolink, the Llandudno tram and so on. Incidentally, ferries will be in the format “Fnnn” and internal air routes “Annn”.

Under the proposals, train companies would be required to show these line numbers on the trains, publicity and station departure boards. And, in a radical departure from current practice, train timetables will have to show not only rail line numbers but also the bus route numbers that leave from each station.

Bus companies will surely welcome the additional advertising for their services. But there is a quid pro quo for the bus industry, which is in two parts:

First, the Local Transport Act 2008 and the Transport Act 2000 will be amended to make it mandatory to show in public timetables & maps not just which buses stop near a rail (train?) station but to show the rail line numbers that go from there as well. That is probably not too painful for bus operators and is conceivably useful to passengers.

Secondly, and potentially this is where the pain lies, the DfT is proposing a GB-wide mandatory bus route numbering scheme that will prevent duplication across the country. Each route will be allocated its own unique number in the NRNP.

By avoiding route number duplication across the country, it will make it easier, the theory goes, for passengers to know where to transfer from bus to train and vice versa. The most quoted example is the Cross-Country train from Penzance to Edinburgh, which currently has quite a few bus route 1s encountered along its journey. The NRNP would clear up such confusion.

In order to make this work, the DfT is proposing that bus companies must register, on a first-come-first-served basis, new NRNP numbers with VOSA, who will only be able to allocate a route number once (unless two or more bus companies operate the same route with full ticket inter-availability).

All of these National Route Numbers will be four digits on a regional numbering scheme as follows:

London routes in the “0001” to “0999” range
Western traffic area “1nnn”
West Midlands “2nnn”
South East (outside of London) “3nnn”
Eastern traffic area “4nnn”
North East “5nnn”
North West “6nnn”
Wales “7nnn”
Scotland “8nnn”

“9nnn” range will be reserved for long distance express services.

Note that despite Wales & Scotland being devolved regions for transport, they have elected to join the scheme. Northern Ireland is currently excluded but is discussing a similar integrated scheme with the Irish Republic. As Ireland is geographically separated, it is thought that this will not present too any issues with the DfT NRNP. In any event, the Irish scheme will probably use three characters only.

Note that the proposed scheme will ban the use of letter prefixes and suffixes, although the second character will be allowed to be “N” for night services—“8N26”, for example.

For older buses, displaying the four numbers on bus destination equipment may be a challenge. But manufacturers of digital destination displays have already been consulted to ensure there are no issues (or to see if software could be upgraded): this is possible for virtually all cases.

More of a challenge will be in fitting four characters into rear displays, where currently only three can be comfortably displayed. It is likely that horizontal scrolling will be allowed.

Another issue is for operators using traditional blinds. Lothian in Edinburgh, Scotland has apparently tried a blind showing route 8026 (the current 26) on one of its one-track number blinds, with some success. The trial was reviewed by local visually impairment groups and a number of suggested changes put forward. Meanwhile, in London, Leon Daniels is apparently seeking a derogation so that the existing Johnston font can be used—otherwise a “narrow” version of the font will be needed to show “0025” instead of “25” comfortably (for example).

The DfT feels that the industry can take the cost of moving to the new numbering plan, given sufficient notice. Route changes will happen anyway and vehicle replacements will take place. A green paper for ministerial consumption suggests a target implementation date of the December 2016 rail timetable change has been set for implementation of the NRNP.

What is not clear is how the travelling public will find all of this and how they will be informed. Critics in the industry have privately expressed misgivings to the DfT, pointing out that the UK is hardly comparable to a Swiss canton or region of Germany. No doubt the Daily Mail may have something to say about this comparison.

But it seems the scheme has too many backers in government and will go ahead. Whether chaos is created and benefits to modal transfer are created, remains to be seen.

Meanwhile, at Trent Barton, a company that uses route names not numbers, is believed to be considering using the NRN number with a scrolling name. Said Alex Hornby, a director,

“I’m not especially enthusiastic about the DfT’s plans but at Trent Barton we’ve prided ourselves in helping passengers for 100 years. We need to be pragmatic about this change and move on. We must play our part in the developing plan that will assist passengers use public transport more. We will work with Ray Stenning to ensure we can make the best of this”
Omnibuses
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,840
Interesting - it does sound like a meaningful (and overdue) step towards some sort of integration. How, though, would it work with those services that 'break' a regular pattern by either combining bits of two 'routes' to provide a useful through service (Gloucester - Birmingham - Stansted mentioned on here recently as an example) or are diverted away from the normal route for a fair chunk of the journey (first two Nottingham - Norwich trains, for example)? Those which don't operate over the full length of a route (take Doncaster - Peterborough via the Joint as a good example - with bits and pieces all over) might cause confusion too - bus routes might use a suffix in such cases, but I see these won't be allowed in future?
 

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,840
D'oh, too early in the day to notice the words 'April' and 'Fool' and a few days too late to consider it a possibility - so please disregard the first part of my ramblings :oops: . It does, though, make rather a lot of sense generally!
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,322
Although this is an April Fool from Omnibuses, I was wondering about the merits of this idea and being all in favour of integrated transport it made me think; could this actually be implemented in a workable way?

In case anyone was wondering Norman's DfT Door to Door strategy does actually exist.


Omnibuses

An interesting idea, which could be made to work, with some useful suggestions, here are some possible work arounds:

For the regional number making the route too long to display on the matrix screen on the back of buses, some bus operators could have a permanent digit fixed to the left of the screen, as they will only ever run buses in one region.

The region of the bus services would be based on the depot which the majority of the services would run out of.

Rather than using numbers to define the region as this may not provide enough route numbers (as according to traveline southwest there are over 100 routes with the only number in them being 1 and more than 60 routes with the only number in them being 2) it might be better to use letters as this then provides over twice the number of regions (however i and o would not be used as they can look too much like numbers).

Likewise with the trains each franchise could be provided with a letter prefix, based upon the name of the franchise not the franchise holder (i.e. Virgin couldn't ask to use the letter V, ICWC would be given a letter, such as W, and whoever ran it would then use that). That way where would be less need for announcements that start "The train now approaching platform 4 is the 10:23 First Great Western Trains' service to..." rather it could say "The train now approaching platform 4 is the 10:23 G23 to.."
 

SteamPower

Member
Joined
4 Aug 2011
Messages
81
The only way I can see integration of this kind happening is by nationalising our transport system and running it on a not for profit basis which at present seems highly unlikely!
 

dvboy

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
1,939
Location
Birmingham
Unique bus number I would welcome, even on a regional basis. At the moment here we have the ridiculous Centro policy of duplicating bus numbers in neighbouring towns which were previously unique, even by the same company, eg NXWM run a number 1 in Birmingham and an number 1 between Dudley and Wolverhampton.
 

starrymarkb

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2009
Messages
5,985
Location
Exeter
I do think trains should be numbered, with regionals having a route number (much like the German S-Bahn and R/RE route numbering) and intercity/long distance services having a unique train number. eg IC3485. It would make advances and ticket validity a bit easier :)
 

Eagle

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2011
Messages
7,106
Location
Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
Unique bus number I would welcome, even on a regional basis. At the moment here we have the ridiculous Centro policy of duplicating bus numbers in neighbouring towns which were previously unique, even by the same company, eg NXWM run a number 1 in Birmingham and an number 1 between Dudley and Wolverhampton.

And the Midland Metro, also run by NX Buses, also (nominally) numbered 1. NX Coventry's old 1 (Chapelfields to Tollbar End) bought it at the February 2012 reshuffle, but a new 1 appeared in October with approximately the same route in the city centre but wildly different endpoints (Tile Hill North to Walsgrave) to the original.

And that's before we get to neighbouring operator Stagecoach Warwickshire who have two different 1s (one in Rugby, one in Nuneaton), not at all far from each other or the aforementioned.
 

Tomonthetrain

Established Member
Joined
12 Jul 2011
Messages
1,290
And the Midland Metro, also run by NX Buses, also (nominally) numbered 1. NX Coventry's old 1 (Chapelfields to Tollbar End) bought it at the February 2012 reshuffle, but a new 1 appeared in October with approximately the same route in the city centre but wildly different endpoints (Tile Hill North to Walsgrave) to the original.

And that's before we get to neighbouring operator Stagecoach Warwickshire who have two different 1s (one in Rugby, one in Nuneaton), not at all far from each other or the aforementioned.

Plus the Arriva 1
 

Eagle

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2011
Messages
7,106
Location
Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
I do think trains should be numbered, with regionals having a route number (much like the German S-Bahn and R/RE route numbering) and intercity/long distance services having a unique train number. eg IC3485. It would make advances and ticket validity a bit easier :)

Trains already have such unique numbers though. Not talking about headcodes/reporting numbers of the form 0X00, those aren't unique, but there are the UIC numbers X00000 (such as you might see on OpenTrainTimes), and the CRS numbers XX0000 (where XX is the TOC's code). The latter already appear on the side screens of XC and EMT's 22x services.
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
I do think trains should be numbered, with regionals having a route number (much like the German S-Bahn and R/RE route numbering)[...]
I still remember the route numbers carried by many NSE trains (especially on the Southern Region) and also noted in timetables. Very useful, especially for regular travellers. E,g, arriving to catch a train at Slough; I'd run for a 1x (non-stop to Paddington) or a 33 (semi-fast). But not for an 86 (all stations, except Acton ML)

[...]and intercity/long distance services having a unique train number. eg IC3485. It would make advances and ticket validity a bit easier :)
Hear, hear. It works well for Eurostar and just about every railway on mainland Europe.
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
Unique bus number I would welcome, even on a regional basis. At the moment here we have the ridiculous Centro policy of duplicating bus numbers in neighbouring towns which were previously unique, even by the same company, eg NXWM run a number 1 in Birmingham and an number 1 between Dudley and Wolverhampton.
It's even worse than that up in Tyne & Wear, where bus companies have been actively renumbering routes so there now are duplicate numbers for different routes in the same place - sometimes even serving adjacent stops.

1, 10, 11, 31 32, 43, 44, 45, 46, X9, X10 and X22 are all duplicated within Newcastle City Centre alone - whilst X21 is triplicated!
 

Deerfold

Veteran Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
12,626
Location
Yorkshire
I can see some traffic areas having more than the 1,000 routes that is considered possible ;)

Quite easily. West Yorkshire has somewhere in the region of 600 route numbers (presumably it would fit in the North Eastern area) and there's still route number duplication.

Metro got rid of the route number duplication in West Yorkshire, largely by adding a prefix to existing numbers - so they didn't confuse existing cu
stomers - I remember the bus past my school changing from the 55 to the 555. (Leeds numbers were largely under 100, Wakefield 1xx, Castleford/Pontefract 2xx, Huddersfield 3xx, Halifax 5xx, Bradford 6xx, Keighley 7xx.

However oddities were then added with miinibus services starting with an 8. 9 was initially used for nightbus services in Leeds and Bradford, with N being used in Halifax and Huddersfield and post-deregulation bus companies were free to number as they liked - many chose to have 2-digit
numbers (presumably for simplicity) with TJ Walsh choosing 300, 400, 555, 600, 700 and HJC largely reusing very old route numbers (and on competing services with First replacing First's 5 with a 3).

At some point when Keighley & District simplified its Keighley - Skpiton services the 666/667/668 services became the 66/66A/66C/67/78A (yes, I did say simplified!).

It's all ended up rather complicated.


Suffix letters can make sense to identify slight changes to routes (although oddly, on my local routes the 66 gains an A when it diverts into the hospital it would otherwise pass, whilst the 762 keeps the same number when it diverts round the same hospital even though it has to double back for half a mile each way).

Similarly prefix letters can be useful to identify local routes or routes with some connection to one another - at Heathrow it's useful for the expensive hotel link buses to have H-prefixes - or it would be if some of the local buses didn't also have an H-prefix. Its also not easy to tell from the route number which services are TfL and accept travelcards and which are First Slough, etc.

I suspect to ensure unique numbers you'd need at least 5 digits - most people would then have to ignore some of them as they would be significantly more difficult to remember.

It would be nice, though probably overly bureaucratic, for there to be a numbering authority so that buses which were identical routes would have the same number, regardless of operator, with similar routes getting similar numbers.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
Plenty of duplication in this neck of the woods, but a lot of it is historic (i.e. East Midlands Motor Services operated a 53 from Mansfield into Sheffield, South Yorkshire Transport had a local 53 service in Sheffield - both services still run today with the same number meaning that you can catch a Stagecoach or First service with the same number on the same section of road).

To confuse things further, TM Travel (part of Wellglade) operate two separate 31s in Sheffield - though some distance apart.

There's also the general move away from three digit numbers to one/two digit numbers, to try to make things simpler for passengers - pre-deregulation Rotherham area services were generally 1**, Barnsley had 3**, Doncaster had 4** - a lot of those services are still fairly recognisable today but without the first digit - e.g. if you've not been in Rotherham for thirty years you'd recognise the 1/2 as being the old 101/102 - which means more services in a county have the same number, but they generally don't overlap (so First have a 41/42 in Rotherham and a 42 in Sheffield and a 41 in Doncaster, but they are in separate areas).
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
Looks like we have!

I admit that I chuckled to myself when I discovered that yesterday our friends the trainspotters had noticed this Omnibuses Blog post of about a fortnight ago. It unexpectedly appeared on a rail forum that gave the idea we put forward some new impetus. Clearly, some members of that community did not thoroughly read the original Omnibuses post. How come it took them so long to take this on board, though, I wonder.

Though I'm not sure if they read my opening gambit correctly when they suggest we (or is it I?) haven't read there's. Oh well. :|

wintonian said:
Although this is an April Fool from Omnibuses,...


I think we could just stick to numbers or perhaps an initial character to denote the service type; B - bus, C, long distance coach, R - heavy rail etc.

Either way we could have another letter at the end to denote things like school day only route, engineering/ roadwork diversion, special event routing as S, X, S etc. for example.

and yes it has annoyed me for a while now that you can 2/ 3 services with the same number operating out of the same bus station, but to different destinations. This disjointed arrangement doesn't really help attract people out of cars and into buses, not when we can all agree that potential users need the transition to be as simple as possible.
 
Last edited:

Ivo

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2010
Messages
7,307
Location
Bath (or Southend)
I note the following as being the first six words of the thread:

Although this is an April Fool

Anyhow, a scheme like this would normally have at least a little merit in a country of this size that wasn't so dependent on public transport (if not as much as Switzerland and others). But the nature of our system is such that it simply wouldn't - if only because of deregulation.

Nonetheless, certainly one of the more imaginative April Fool ideas I've seen...
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
Oh, and as for taking so long to pick up on the blog post, as interesting as bus blogs are believe it or not I don't read them everyday! :D
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,042
Location
Yorkshire
Bus route number duplication is something that concerns me greatly. I have no issue with their being routes of the same number in different counties, however I strongly dislike the sharing of numbers for different services in the same area.

I also dislike route variations _not_ having A or B suffixes.

As far as I know, the main forms of electronic destination blind can display a four digit number, though I agree the rear can be squashed.
 

Eagle

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2011
Messages
7,106
Location
Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
As far as I know, the main forms of electronic destination blind can display a four digit number, though I agree the rear can be squashed.

Evidently not, being as Stagecoach's X18, run by Scania/Enviros with LED blinds, becomes 18A on Sundays when it diverts between Leamington and Warwick (to use the X17 route); this despite the fact that this means it collides with NX Coventry's 18A at stops on Corporation Street and Queen Victoria Road in Coventry.
 

Ivo

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2010
Messages
7,307
Location
Bath (or Southend)
As far as I know, the main forms of electronic destination blind can display a four digit number, though I agree the rear can be squashed.

You are most definitely correct in saying that they can. I say this in having had my most frequent service in 2010-12 having a four-digit "number" (technically four characters, comprised of three letters and a number). The numbering still appears on buses with out-of-date displays, more than six months on.

The rear display on the older dot matrix displays was somewhat squashed, although the modern Hanover system coped perfectly well.
 

bb21

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
24,151
And the Midland Metro, also run by NX Buses, also (nominally) numbered 1. NX Coventry's old 1 (Chapelfields to Tollbar End) bought it at the February 2012 reshuffle, but a new 1 appeared in October with approximately the same route in the city centre but wildly different endpoints (Tile Hill North to Walsgrave) to the original.

And that's before we get to neighbouring operator Stagecoach Warwickshire who have two different 1s (one in Rugby, one in Nuneaton), not at all far from each other or the aforementioned.

Plus the Arriva 1

I certainly agree that route number rationalisation would be a good idea in many areas. Buses carried an article a few months back pointing out the absurdity of Glasgow having three different 38s down the same street running in totally different directions. There is absolutely no reason why two routes going to different areas in the same locality should have the same number. It only causes confusion and does not help with the perception that public transport is complex and difficult to use in many people's eyes.

Arriva the Shires have no problem with duplicate route numbers at all... :roll:

View attachment 14375

If they are not in the same locality and does not cause potential confusion with interurban/regional services then I think it is not a big issue. I however do not like the idea that there might be a 1 and an X1 going to totally different destinations.

Bus route number duplication is something that concerns me greatly. I have no issue with their being routes of the same number in different counties, however I strongly dislike the sharing of numbers for different services in the same area.

I also dislike route variations _not_ having A or B suffixes.

As far as I know, the main forms of electronic destination blind can display a four digit number, though I agree the rear can be squashed.

I endorse this view completely, although some operators, notably trentbarton, prefer to leave out suffixes for route variations.
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,042
Location
Yorkshire
Evidently not, being as Stagecoach's X18, run by Scania/Enviros with LED blinds, becomes 18A on Sundays when it diverts between Leamington and Warwick (to use the X17 route); this despite the fact that this means it collides with NX Coventry's 18A at stops on Corporation Street and Queen Victoria Road in Coventry.

Could well be because office-based systems cannot cope with X18A, and not a vehicle issue.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top