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National Routeing Guide update

PermitToTravel

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The issue is that that quote is from the Routeing Guide, which also contains the easements and requirement to check NRE.

The right to take the shortest route is enshrined in the CoC and so no reference must be made to the NRG, easements, or NRE.
 
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VauxhallandI

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That'll be me then...

Surely they cannot do me whilst I hold an annual ticket?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Surely this is unenforceable as Waltham Cross or Theobalds Grove to London Liverpool Street via Cheshunt is less than 3 miles further than the shortest route by rail.

I thought the shortest route by rail (or routes within 3 miles of the shortest route) was always valid.

Indeed my impression too especially combined with section 58 - thou shall not change this document, or words to that effect
 

Paul Kelly

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I agree with Fahad here; since the three mile rule exists only in the Routeing Guide and not in the NRCoC, it can be affected by a negative easement. The shortest route on the other hand cannot. But it is a very grey area.

What I think is clearer is that Johngill100's contract with the train companies was entered into at the time he purchased his season ticket, and the permitted routes that the ticket is valid on were agreed at that point. My opinion is that he would have a very good case should Greater Anglia try to claim that they are able to change the routes his ticket is valid on after he has purchased it.
 

VauxhallandI

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Surely the three mile statement needs to be removed if it is no longer valid otherwise it could be a honey trap.
 

PermitToTravel

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What I think is clearer is that Johngill100's contract with the train companies was entered into at the time he purchased his season ticket, and the permitted routes that the ticket is valid on were agreed at that point. My opinion is that he would have a very good case should Greater Anglia try to claim that they are able to change the routes his ticket is valid on after he has purchased it.

Agreed. In my opinion (IANAL) the contract cannot be changed in this manner unilaterally.

However, someone on here (I can't remember who - DaveNewcastle?) has previously presented the argument that the routes one may take are not an integral part of the contract, and can be changed without the passenger's consent mid-term.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Surely the three mile statement needs to be removed if it is no longer valid otherwise it could be a honey trap.

The three mile rule still applies and allows travel. In the case of your ticket, another rule disallows travel.
 

VauxhallandI

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What date was this introduced?

In what circumstances is the three mile rule allowed?

I must be missing something as it appears where ever it applies and the TOC doesn't like it they just get it barred, it can't be that cynical can it?
 
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PermitToTravel

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According to the OP the change was last week.
It is not defined in which order the rules are to be applied, whether negative easements must be checked at all, or whether they can override the three mile rule.
I think that you are fine until the expiry date of your ticket.
 

infobleep

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Under easement 700356 it says "Entered by Fujitsu under negative map easement work for RSP".

Does anyone know what RSP stands for and what is a a negative map easement. Is it one that applies to a mapped route and how do you know which bits of the maps it applies to. In this case it's for INV-G01. I assume that is one of the route maps. It just says WCML and ECML but not any stations or via to explain further.

On the page containing the link to download the easements it has the following:
"
Easements (Section E)

Description:

A list of easements, where Routeing Guide rules have been relaxed for certain routes.

Instructions:

Scroll through the list of easements to establish whether any easements apply to your journey."

What that doesn't say is that the easements also include a tightening of the rules, where otherwise a journey might be allowed. Perhaps they don't like negative sentences or statements on the Web Site.

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bb21

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I do not believe routes no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest can be barred by a negative easement. I don't wish to go into details here. Anyone interested in my reasoning can read the exact wording of the opening paragraph of Section E of the NRG, and it should be obvious.
 

hairyhandedfool

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.....In what circumstances is the three mile rule allowed?....

In any circumstance where an easement does not forbid it. ;)

The problem with the 'three mile rule', aside from some people's definition of the word "longer", is that it only appears in Section F of the Routeing Guide (The Routeing Guide in Detail), along with some other dubious 'rules' that no-one quite understands.

Another problem with this situation is that the Routeing Guide was designed without the help of 'Negative Easements' and it is only since going 'online' that these have been put in (badly).
 

PermitToTravel

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Does anyone know what RSP stands for and what is a a negative map easement. Is it one that applies to a mapped route and how do you know which bits of the maps it applies to. In this case it's for INV-G01. I assume that is one of the route maps. It just says WCML and ECML but not any stations or via to explain further.

Map easements are a type of easement in the electronic Routeing Guide, which is not published. In the public NRG there are not plural types of easement, excepting positive and negative.
 
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OwlMan

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This seems clear

"Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route."

Where is that quote from?

If you are referring to page 7 of section F that quote refers to "Finding a permitted route when the origin and destination stations have a
routeing point in common"
which does not apply in this case.

Any other mention of the three mile rule is in the National Routeing Guide and not enshrined in the NRCoC and as such is subject to all the rules of the Routeing Guide including easements.
 
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OwlMan

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Section F of the Routeing guide subsection E.

and still the same section the follwing appears
A journey which follows a route permitted by the Routeing Guide may be forbidden that route by a negative easement.
When you have chosen your journey, look to see if an easement applies to it.


Can you show anywhere the three mile rule appears that is not in the Routeing Guide
 

VauxhallandI

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Where is that quote from?

If you are referring to page 7 of section F that quote refers to "Finding a permitted route when the origin and destination stations have a
routeing point in common"
which does not apply in this case.

Any other mention of the three mile rule is in the National Routeing Guide and not enshrined in the NRCoC and as such is subject to all the rules of the Routeing Guide including easements.

Iirc section 13 of the CoC quotes the routing guide therefore it is covered by it?
 

Muzer

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"Section E (the green pages) lists easements which apply to routeings.
Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer
by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route. Journeys following a
route given by the Routeing Guide are following a permitted route.
"

[...]

"An easement which extends permission is a positive easement. An easement which
narrows permission is a negative easement. Map, double-back and fare route
easements are always positive. Circuitous route easements are always negative.
Other kinds of easements can be positive or negative.
A journey which follows a route permitted by the Routeing Guide may be forbidden
that route by a negative easement.
When you have chosen your journey, look to see if an easement applies to it."



Looks to me like there is a specific distinction between routes "permitted by the Routeing Guide" and direct/shortest/within 3 miles of shortest routes (even though the third are also permitted by the Routeing Guide, strictly speaking). This would lead me, as bb21 does, to believe that negative easements can't apply to the routes within 3 miles - but I agree that it's rather ambiguous.
 

VauxhallandI

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Then we are talking about conflicting information which I've always understood, in the event of a dispute, shall be determined in favour of the consumer.

Whilst the TOC has the threat of court on their side I'm afraid it will always fall in favour of the TOC as who wants to be the one that sticks his neck out for everyone else's benefit.

How do we lobby for a ombudsmen?
 

hairyhandedfool

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Iirc section 13 of the CoC quotes the routing guide therefore it is covered by it?

The NRCoC states:

"(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide."

It therefore follows that a route that is not 'shown' in the Routeing Guide is not in compliance with NRCoC Condition 13 part (iii).

Then we are talking about conflicting information which I've always understood, in the event of a dispute, shall be determined in favour of the consumer.

Not necessarily and not necessarily, though probably more true on the second count.

It says routes no more than three miles longer than the shortest route are always permitted, but then says that the permitted routes can be forbidden by an easement.

So it's not saying it is no longer permitted (which would be a contradiction) but that you can't use them (which isn't).
 

infobleep

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Map easements are a type of easement in the electronic Routeing Guide, which is not published. In the public NRG there are not plural types of easement, excepting positive and negative.

Thanks for the reply. We are told to check which easements apply but how can we if they refer to documents not published. We are not mind readers.

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infobleep

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Perhaps one can in practice but the instructions don't officially state that, unless I've missed something.

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PermitToTravel

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What do you think should be done with "Negative map easements for INV-G01, covering WCML & ECML. Entered by Fujitsu under negative map easements work for RSP." then?
 

furlong

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What do you think should be done with "Negative map easements for INV-G01, covering WCML & ECML. Entered by Fujitsu under negative map easements work for RSP." then?

A request to the DfT to ask for the documentation trail covering its approval and if they can tell us how their lawyers thought it should be interpreted when they approved it?

My personal view is that there should be considered to be at least 3 classes of routeing guides now. The one implemented on NRE's computers (which is the one that is generally relied upon day-to-day) with similar ones (with minor variations) on other booking engines; the published reference copy (with its many conflicting interpretations and which would be used to resolve most disputes); the legally-enforceable (contractual) one that would be generated by going back to the original version and applying only the changes formerly approved in a manner such that they would not fall if subjected to legal challenge.
 

PermitToTravel

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What sort of legal challenge do you mean? I thought that if the TOCs/ATOC change their contract with the passenger, then they breach their contract with the DfT, but that won't automatically void the illegal changes?
 

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