National Routeing Guide update

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by RJ, 16 Apr 2014.

  1. JB_B

    JB_B Member

    Messages:
    693
    Joined:
    27 Dec 2013
    OK, thanks. In terms of search, I'm used to thinking of inter-map links as equivalent to in-map links ( except they're one-way only, of course ) but what you say makes sense.
     
  2. kieron

    kieron Established Member

    Messages:
    2,162
    Joined:
    22 Mar 2012
    Location:
    Connah's Quay
    Some map sequences were changed this afternoon.
    Changes from 19 Jun 2019 (262) to 26 Jun 2019 (263).

    Permitted Route changes:
    Cardiff Central (CDF) to Liverpool Group (G18) gain AW+JO+CV
    This journey now has mapped routes which go via Chester and Runcorn.

    Coventry (COV) to Warrington Group (G31) gain NV+LC
    This journey now has mapped routes using the direct line between Crewe and Warrington again.

    If I compare today's routeing guide with the one from 7 June instead of 19 June, then it works out as follows:

    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via Birmingham International and the the direct Crewe-Warrington line; or
    via Wilmslow and the the direct Crewe-Warrington line.
    It now has mapped routes which go via both Bedworth and Birmingham.

    Losing Coventry-Wolverhampton-Stafford-Crewe-Warrington would be a nuisance, but it's not much further than the shortest route for Coventry-Warrington stations, and I don't know if there's a journey which uses this points but where this wouldn't be permitted by ticket sites' implementations of the shortest route rule.

    Ely (ELY) to Huyton (HUY) gain ER+ED+DW+JG
    This journey now has mapped routes via Meadowhall.
     
  3. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

    Messages:
    5,646
    Joined:
    7 Oct 2017
    We know you're reading this, RDG! :lol:
     
  4. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

    Messages:
    3,411
    Joined:
    16 Apr 2010
    Location:
    Reading
    Coventry Arena to Warrington Bank Quay? That's over 6 miles longer via Birmingham than the shortest route via the Trent Valley line, and often the fastest journey, but from what you're saying, sounds like it's still not permitted after this afternoon's changes?
     
  5. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

    Messages:
    5,646
    Joined:
    7 Oct 2017
    I really don't know what they're playing at with these changes. It's been a longstanding policy that, when travelling along the central section of the WCML you could always travel along any of the "branches" or main lines loops as long as you didn't go further away from your destination, e.g. if your origin was Tamworth and your destination Preston you could go via Birmingham but not down to Nuneaton and then Coventry. But now suddenly this is no longer good enough. Madness, utter madness.
     
  6. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

    Messages:
    4,198
    Joined:
    10 Jun 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    Looks like TfW are being a bit more proactive with routeing their yet-to-be-introduced Cardiff-Liverpool service than they were with the Wrexham/Chester-Liverpool portion.
     
  7. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

    Messages:
    3,529
    Joined:
    25 Feb 2009
    Location:
    Liverpool
    and Wrexham - Liverpool is still not permitted via the Halton curve.
     
  8. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

    Messages:
    4,198
    Joined:
    10 Jun 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    Is it not? National Rail shows me trains every hour for WRX-LIV via Helsby, with a single £9.20 Off-Peak Day Return ticket offered.

    Without the 'via' it shows services via Birkenhead instead, as they're six minutes faster than waiting for the Halton curve service.
     
    Last edited: 27 Jun 2019
  9. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

    Messages:
    3,529
    Joined:
    25 Feb 2009
    Location:
    Liverpool
    That's because that particular ticket is 'via Runcorn', so it obviously must be valid on that route.

    Anything else, such as tickets to Central, which only have 'any permitted', are not valid.
    (shortest route is, apparently, via Merseyrail)
     
  10. MikeWM

    MikeWM Member

    Messages:
    315
    Joined:
    26 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Ely
    Well, that's something fixed that should always have been the case. I wonder what broke that?

    There are still serious problems here though, at least in part due to the fact that Ely -> Liverpool -> Huyton, while by far the most obvious not-London route, is still not allowed. Eg. searching on NRE for Ely -> Huyton, leaving today, returning tomorrow, via Sheffield, offers me *no* available return ticket for any journey starting between 1316 and 1616. There are five 'no tickets available' results in that gap, three Ely -> Liverpool -> Huyton (so not permitted under the irritating current routing rules), and two bizarre ones each with 5 changes (one involving going Stockport->Crewe (!) and the other involving Sheffield->Tamworth (!), presumably neither of which are permitted routing either...)
     
  11. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    39,852
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Because of the Merseyrail fares quirk (no CDR) that one indeed isn't. The Anytime at £12.something is however de-facto valid that way because it is more expensive than via Runcorn.
     
  12. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

    Messages:
    3,411
    Joined:
    16 Apr 2010
    Location:
    Reading
    Good thinking but there's two problems:
    1. The VIA RUNCORN fares are issued specifically to Lime Street only, not the LIVERPOOL STATIONS group, preventing them from being used onwards to Liverpool Central. (Edited to add: This means they are not available for a Wrexham to Liverpool Central journey and their validity over the route can't be taken into account to make an Any Permitted fare valid.)
    2. The rule about validity over non-permitted routes where there is a cheaper routed fare only applies to fares routed Any Permitted, not blank/route "." fares. It stands to reason that it should, although I'm not aware of any edict from RDG to journey planner suppliers to tell them to change their algorithms to work in this way...
     
    Last edited: 27 Jun 2019
  13. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    39,852
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    I wasn't aware of any rule, just a de-facto situation based on the fact that (a) you are entitled to a route excess between any non-TOC-specific routes for a given journey, (b) that route excess would be zero fare, and (c) nobody likes issuing zero-fare route excesses so hardly any get issued. Was there a rule to make planners work with it?

    Or does them being issued to Lime St remove the right to a route excess?

    (There are I believe some silly ones of this nature, such as route NOT LONDON fares that are de-facto valid via London, though obviously with no Tube transfer included - and almost all +LONDON routed fares are de-facto valid via non-London routes for a similar reason, though most of these ones are +ANY PERMITTED or just + these days anyway)
     
  14. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

    Messages:
    3,411
    Joined:
    16 Apr 2010
    Location:
    Reading
    This has always been fairly clear in the routeing guide. And on reading it again just now, I see that my 2nd point above is wrong! It says (in the main instructions):
    The 2nd bit in bold is the contractual basis for your point. Some journey planners implement a specific rule for the bolded bit, but not all do. But I think it is irrelevant because a "lower priced route specific fare" does not exist for Wrexham to Liverpool Central; the fare is only available for Wrexham to Liverpool Lime Street.

    The 1st bit in bold proves my second point invalid, as it clearly also applies to blank or "dot" routes.
     
  15. tony_mac

    tony_mac Established Member

    Messages:
    3,529
    Joined:
    25 Feb 2009
    Location:
    Liverpool
    To be horribly pedantic (and to illustrate the silliness!) the fare is only available for Wrexham General to Liverpool Lime Street - it is not even available for Wrexham Central to Liverpool Lime Street.
     
  16. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    39,852
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    This is why we could really do with a recursive fares and routeing system, which if you inserted it for any part of a journey it could be used for any journey of which that is a component.
     
  17. kieron

    kieron Established Member

    Messages:
    2,162
    Joined:
    22 Mar 2012
    Location:
    Connah's Quay
    Some more changes were published yesterday:

    Changes from 26 Jun 2019 (263) to 03 Jul 2019 (264).

    Station Association changes:
    Cathcart (CCT) is no longer associated with Newton (NTN).
    Muirend (MUI) is no longer associated with Newton (NTN).
    Neilston (NEI) is no longer associated with Newton (NTN).
    Patterton (PTT) is no longer associated with Newton (NTN).
    Whitecraigs (WCR) is no longer associated with Newton (NTN).
    Williamwood (WLM) is no longer associated with Newton (NTN).
    That is, every station on the Neilston branch, as well as Cathcart. Each remains associated with Glasgow and Mount Florida.

    The shortest route from each of the above stations to Newton goes through Mount Florida. The route through Langside (and avoiding intermediate routeing points) is half a mile longer.

    Permitted Route changes:
    Bolton (BON) to London Group (G01) gain EW
    This journey now has mapped routes:
    via Warrington;
    via Wigan and Wilmslow; and
    via Wigan and Stoke-on-Trent.

    Croydon Group (G08) to Guildford (GLD) gain LF+CS VB+HR VB+VA+DK VB+VA+EF VB+VA+WV XE+HR XE+HR+CS lose SC+PD
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via Barnes;
    via Tooting;
    via Sutton and Surbiton;
    via Crystal Palace and New Cross Gate; or
    via New Cross Gate, Herne Hill and Clapham Junction.

    It now has mapped routes:
    via Brixton;
    via Dorking Deepdene;
    via Sutton and Leatherhead; and
    ones via Leatherhead which don't go through London.

    Crystal Palace (CYP) to Guildford (GLD) gain AF+EF FT+HR
    This journey now has mapped routes:
    via Sutton;
    via Brixton; and
    ones via Clapham Junction which don't go through London.

    Ely (ELY) to Huyton (HUY) gain AM+NR+NO lose AM+NR
    This journey now has mapped routes:
    via Sheffield and Liverpool; and
    via Wilmslow and Eccles.

    Guildford (GLD) to London Group (G01) gain EF HR PU+EF lose PD
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via Barnes; or
    via Tooting.

    It now has mapped routes via Sutton.

    Horsham (HRH) to Motspur Park (MOT) gain DK LB+DK SC+DK lose SC
    This journey now has mapped routes via Earlsfield.

    Horsham (HRH) to Raynes Park (RAY) gain DK LB+DK SC+DK lose SC+SU
    This journey no longer has mapped routes via both Sutton and Peckham Rye.
    It now has mapped routes via Gatwick.

    Horsham (HRH) to Wimbledon (WIM) gain DK LB+DK SC+DK lose LB+SC SC
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via West Sutton;
    via Tooting; or
    via both Sutton and Peckham Rye.

    It now has mapped routes via Earlsfield.

    Hunts Cross Group (G70) to Wrexham Group (G49) gain CP CV+JO lose JG
    Huyton (HUY) to Wrexham Group (G49) gain CV+JO ME lose JG
    These journeys no longer have mapped routes via Warrington.

    They now have mapped routes:
    via Runcorn; and
    via Shotton.

    Liverpool Group (G18) to Wrexham Group (G49) gain CV+JO
    This journey now has mapped routes via Runcorn.

    Mount Florida (MFL) to Newton (NTN) gain GO
    This journey now has mapped routes via Glasgow.

    Runcorn (RUN) to Wrexham Group (G49) gain JO lose CV+CH
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via Liverpool; or
    via Crewe.

    It now has mapped routes via Frodsham.

    Easement changes:

    Changed:
    700214 (Routeing Point) Customers travelling from Alfreton, Langley Mill or Ilkeston to or via London St Pancras, in possession of tickets routed 'Any Permitted', (00472) EMIDSTRAINSONLY or 'EMT & Connections' may travel via Chesterfield. This easement applies in both directions.
    This adds the rest of the EMT advance tickets to London.

    700810 (Doubleback) On Sundays passengers travelling from rRedditch, Alvechurch and Barnt Green to Bromsgrove, Droitwich Spa, Worcester Foregate Street and Worcester Shrub Hill may doubleback by changing at Longbridge. This doubleback easement applies in both directions
    No effect.
     
  18. kieron

    kieron Established Member

    Messages:
    2,162
    Joined:
    22 Mar 2012
    Location:
    Connah's Quay
    Some more changes were published this afternoon.
    Changes from 03 Jul 2019 (264) to 10 Jul 2019 (265).

    Permitted Route changes:
    Dorking Group (G10) to Horsham (HRH) gain CS+LF
    This journey now has mapped routes via Gatwick.

    Easement changes:

    Added:
    700863 (Doubleback) Customers travelling from or via Stafford to Northampton may interchange at Milton Keynes Central and doubleback through Wolverton. This doubleback easement applies in both directions.
    This easement is a more generic version of 700438 (which does the same thing, but only for "any permitted" tickets).

    I'm not sure how wise it is to specify Stafford here, when (say) the fastest Manchester-Northampton journeys involve a change in Milton Keynes, but doesn't use a train which goes through Stafford.

    700864 (Routeing Point) Customers travelling from Alsager or Kidsgrove to stations beyond Charlton or Blackheath may travel via Stoke on Trent. This routeing point easement will override unintended consequences of NFM64 fares checking in journey planners and will work in both directions.
    For some reason, the NFM64 fare for (for example) Alsager-Sidcup is higher than the fares to Sidcup from Cheadle Hulme, Stoke-on-Trent and Crewe. You'd have to go to Sidcup via Charlton or Blackheath to take advantage of this easement, of course.

    700865 (Routeing Point) Customers travelling from Bruton or Frome to Taunton may travel via Westbury. This routeing point easement will apply in both directions.

    700866 (Local) Customers travelling to Taunton via Westbury from Bruton or Frome may doubleback through those stations after interchanging at Westbury. This local easement will apply in both directions.
    These help with the fact that Bruton and Frome have quite an infrequent timetable towards Castle Cary. For Bruton, this means there's a train in some of the gaps. For Frome, there are extra trains which start there.

    700867 (Doubleback) Customers travelling from Kirkhill, Burnside, Croftfoot, Kings Park, Mount Florida, or via Mount Florida from origins on the Neilston branch to Uddingston or Bellshill, may doubleback through Newton (Lanarkshire) after interchanging at Cambuslang. This doubleback easement applies in both directions.
    I think the route being considered here is (wherever-) Kirkhill-Newton-Cambuslang-Uddingston (-Bellshill). As there are usually no direct Newton-Uddingston trains, this is the shortest route, and so a journey on this route should be permitted without any easements.

    This easement is intended to affect the Newton-Cambuslang-Uddingston section. The journey may be between two stations with a common routeing point (for Kirkhill and Uddingston this would be Newton), or it may the section of a longer journey which goes between a routeing point (Newton) and a station associated with it. This may mean that a "doubleback" easement may not have the intended effect.

    Perhaps it all works fine though - the web sites I tried hadn't implemented these changes when I tried them, so I haven't checked this easement yet.
     
  19. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

    Messages:
    8,773
    Joined:
    27 Feb 2011

    I see a recent thread I posted has resulted in positive changes. Maybe I thank the people who did that. I don't know who they are but I'm sure they do.
     
  20. island

    island Established Member

    Messages:
    10,196
    Joined:
    30 Dec 2010
    Location:
    0036
    Which you can’t, because you’d violate easement 44.
     
  21. MikeWM

    MikeWM Member

    Messages:
    315
    Joined:
    26 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Ely
    Ah, that's a good change, and addresses my above complaint nicely. Thanks to whoever was reading this thread that have made this eminently sensible amendment.
     

Share This Page