National Routeing Guide update

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by RJ, 16 Apr 2014.

  1. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Associate Staff Senior Fares Advisor

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    Indeed. Didn't we have confirmation from ATOC that that is how outboundary travelcards work? Would this change have needed approval from the DfT? Have any ticket sites implimented this change?

    @yorkie @SickyNicky @Indigo2
     
  2. FenMan

    FenMan Member

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    I've just checked a journey where a route is permitted to a station in the Zones that is not a permitted route to London Terminals. Both NRE and a MixingDeck site report the journey can be made using an outboundary Travelcard. This indicates there may be an issue in implementing this change in journey planners.
     
  3. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    Is it really a change? It looks to have been done in a way similar to how non-contractual notes have recently been included in the NRCoT. It specifically calls itself "a note", and it also says your route "should" (i.e. not "must") be valid for a journey to London Terminals. It's also very weird the way it says it should be a route to "London Terminals", a fares concept, and not "London Routeing Group". This looks to me like a non-contractual addition. It probably is worth somebody asking DfT and Passenger Focus about documentation relating to the consultation process, though.
     
  4. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    You can buy a ticket to "London Terminals" from most (if not all) stations outside the London zones, so asking people to use the routes they would use for one of those has a clear meaning. "London routeing group" is only used in the routeing guide for calculating mapped routes, so I don't know how easements affect it or how shortest route calculations could be made.

    I don't know if there's a difference between "should" and "must" in the way each is used in the routeing guide, though, or what the significance is of calling it a "note",
     
  5. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some more changes were published this afternoon.
    Changes from 08 Jan 2020 (289) to 15 Jan 2020 (290).

    Permitted Route changes:

    Hitchin (HIT) to Stratford London Gp (G74) gain AS+OV lose KE+OV
    Stevenage (SVG) to Stratford London Gp (G74) gain AS+OV lose KE+OV
    These journeys no longer have mapped routes via both Canonbury and London which do not go via Shadwell.

    Peterborough (PBO) to Stratford London Gp (G74) gain AS+OV
    This journey now has mapped routes via Canonbury which do not go via London.

    Easement changes:

    Added:
    700895 (Fare route) Due to engineering works and the replacement of trains with rail replacement bus services on Sundays 19 and 26 January 2020 and Saturday 25 January 2020. Tickets to and from Dagenham Dock, Rainham (Essex) and Purfleet priced (00112) VIA BARKING, will be valid on rail replacement bus services travelling to Upminster.
    This is the same as easement 700893 for just after Christmas, except that the buses are going to Upminster here rather than Grays.

    700896 (Fare route) Due to engineering works and the replacement of trains with rail replacement bus services on Sundays 19 and 26 January 2020 and Saturday 25 January 2020. Tickets to and from Dagenham Dock, Rainham (Essex) and Purfleet priced (00114) VIA GRAYS, will be valid on rail replacement bus services travelling to Upminster.
    As above, except for "via Grays" tickets. You can buy Purfleet-Upminster tickets with either route, so it's important to be able to catch the bus with them.
     
  6. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some more changes to the routeing guide were published this afternoon.
    Changes from 15 Jan 2020 (290) to 22 Jan 2020 (291).

    Permitted Route changes:
    Huddersfield Group (G40) to Warrington Group (G31) gain GM+NO
    Leeds Group (G16) to Warrington Group (G31) gain MN+NO
    Stalybridge (SYB) to Warrington Group (G31) gain GM+NO
    Warrington Group (G31) to York (YRK) gain NO+MN
    These journeys now have mapped routes via Newton-le-Willows.

    Easement changes:

    Added:

    700897 (Map) Due to engineering work diversions on the weekend of 25 and 26 April 2020, Cross Country services will be diverted between Cheltenham Spa and Bristol. This map easement will create temporary permitted routes via Swindon and Bath Spa and will apply in both directions.
    The diversions have not yet been loaded into the timetable.
     
  7. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some more easements were published on Friday.
    Changes from 22 Jan 2020 (291) to 31 Jan 2020 (292).

    Easement changes:

    Added:

    700898 (Routeing Point) Customers travelling from Roydon (Essex), Harlow Town and Harlow Mill to Basildon, Laindon or West Horndon may travel via Upminster. This routeing point easement applies in both directions
    Pitsea is a valid routeing point for all of these journeys, so you could already get a web site to show a route via Upminster was valid, simply by putting a double back to Pitsea at the end. None of the available tickets restrict break of journey, so you could miss out the double back when you travel.

    With this easement, you can leave out the double back.
    700899 (Routeing Point) Customer travelling from Redhill to Northumberland Park, Meridian Water, Ponders End, Brimsdown Enfield Lock and Waltham Cross may travel via Tottenham Hale. This routeing point easement applies in both directions
    This easement permits something which was already permitted before it was published. Tottenham Hale is part of the "Tottenham Hale Und" fare group, and the Tottenham Hale Und-Redhill fares are lower than the ones from Redhill to Northumberland Park, etc..

    When the routeing guide data feed was updated to include these easements, it was accompanied by another change. Tottenham Hale is no longer listed as part of the Tottenham Hale Und fare group.

    Tottenham Hale itself doesn't have any fares listed in the NFM64 list, and there's no substitution given for it in the "new station" list. This means that, while (say) Tottenham Hale-Ipswich has the same valid routes as before, Tottenham Hale-Felixstowe is not longer shown as being permitted via London (as the shortest route goes via Lea Bridge instead).

    I don't think there are any other significant changes in the "stations" file, but there are a lot of files in the feed I haven't looked at yet.
     
  8. Kite159

    Kite159 Veteran Member

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    Considering that going via upminster is the most logical way to reach those stations, seems a bit silly to have to make an easement for it.
     
  9. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Easements were created to enable people to travel in situations where applying the standard rules gives a silly outcome. In this case, it's because the single fares in a 1996 price list aren't a totally reliable guide to which routes are sensible for a journey you might make today.
     
  10. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some easement changes were published this afternoon.
    Changes from 31 Jan 2020 (292) to 03 Feb 2020 (293).

    Easement changes:

    Removed:

    700895 (Fare route) Due to engineering works and the replacement of trains with rail replacement bus services on Sundays 19 and 26 January 2020 and Saturday 25 January 2020. Tickets to and from Dagenham Dock, Rainham (Essex) and Purfleet priced (00112) VIA BARKING, will be valid on rail replacement bus services travelling to Upminster.

    700896 (Fare route) Due to engineering works and the replacement of trains with rail replacement bus services on Sundays 19 and 26 January 2020 and Saturday 25 January 2020. Tickets to and from Dagenham Dock, Rainham (Essex) and Purfleet priced (00114) VIA GRAYS, will be valid on rail replacement bus services travelling to Upminster.
    Temporary easements which have now expired.

    Added:

    700900 (Routeing Point) Due to engineering works and the replacement of trains with rail replacement bus services on the weekends of 09/09 February 2020, 29 February and 01 March 2020, 14 - 15 March 2020, Easter holiday 10 - 13 April 2020 and 18-19 April 2020. Tickets to and from Dagenham Dock, Rainham (Essex) and Purfleet priced (00114) VIA GRAYS, will be valid on rail replacement bus services travelling to Upminster.

    700901 (Routeing Point) Due to engineering works and the replacement of trains with rail replacement bus services on weekends of 08-09 February 2020, 29 February - 01 March 2020, 14 - 15 March 2020, Easter holiday 10 - 13 April 2020 and 18-19 April 2020. Tickets to and from Dagenham Dock, Rainham (Essex) and Purfleet priced (00112) VIA BARKING, will be valid on rail replacement bus services travelling to Upminster.
    These are equivalent to easements 700893 and 700894, but with different dates. As before, the buses run between Grays and Upminster, and no trains or rail replacement buses stop at Dagenham Dock.
     
  11. TUC

    TUC Established Member

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    Is ir just my misconception, or is it just London that seems to issue Routing Guide amendments that are purely to cover RRBs?
     
  12. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    I don't know. These ones were needed because they let you use a "via X" ticket on a route which doesn't go through "X". This sort of situation may be a bit more common in & around London because of the denser rail network, but it does happen in different parts of the country.
     
  13. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some more easement changes were published this afternoon.
    Changes from 03 Feb 2020 (293) to 12 Feb 2020 (294).

    Easement changes:

    Removed:

    700899 (Routeing Point) Customer travelling from Redhill to Northumberland Park, Meridian Water, Ponders End, Brimsdown Enfield Lock and Waltham Cross may travel via Tottenham Hale. This routeing point easement applies in both directions
    The "new stations" file now lists Tottenham Hale as using the prices defined for Northumberland Park (this actually changed on 3 February, although I didn't check it at the time). This means that it passes the fare check for all of these journeys without an easement.

    Added:

    700902 (Map) Due to engineering work, on the 02 - 03 May 2020 Cross Country services will be diverted between Cheltenham and Bristol via Swindon and Bath Spa. This map easement will operate in both directions
    The only trains from Bristol Parkway on those dates are going to/from London via Swindon. Crosscountry are diverted via Swindon between Bristol and Cheltenham, using this easement. GWR are diverted via Gloucester between Swindon and Newport, with no easement.
     
  14. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    A new easement was added to the routeing guide this afternoon.
    Changes from 12 Feb 2020 (294) to 19 Feb 2020 (295).

    Easement changes:

    Added:

    700903 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling to London Terminals from Tilbury Town and Tilbury Riverside may not use ferry connections and travel via Gravesend. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.
    This is, I suppose, intended to compensate for the fact that fares from Tilbury are generally cheaper than ones from Gravesend, even with £5 for the ferry.
     
  15. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Two more easement changes were published yesterday:
    Changes from 19 Feb 2020 (295) to 21 Feb 2020 (296).

    Easement changes:


    Added:

    700904 (Fare route) Due to engineering works on 22 and 29 March 2020 and the replacement of services with rail replacement buses, there will be fast bus services operating between Worcestershire Parkway and Gloucester that do not stop at Cheltenham Spa. Tickets priced on (00171) VIA CHELTENHAM SPA, will be valid on these services.
    From a brief check, it appears that "via Worcester" tickets (as mentioned in easements 700703, 700704 and 700731) will not be valid on these services.

    Changed:
    700903 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling to London Terminals from Tilbury Town and Tilbury Riverside. Or via Tilbury Riverside, may not use ferry connections and travel via Gravesend. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.
    This increases the range of journeys this easement affects.
     
  16. Kilopylae

    Kilopylae Member

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    [1] Does anyone have any record of this original confirmation from A.T.O.C.? The closest I can find is a July 2012 forum post from user OwlMan, where he said, in reference to a Boundary Zone 6 ticket, that A.T.O.C. had told him:
    [2] Is there any precedent for non-contractual additions to the Routeing Guide, or, other than poorly informed T.O.C. Twitter accounts, routeing advice from generally accepted authorities that has been proven to be non-binding or incorrect?
     
  17. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I don't have it in writing, but I do know that the planners implement it, and it is the reason why the outboundary Travelcards from the south WCML have "route Watford Junction" on them, whereas the point to point fares don't.
     
  18. JB_B

    JB_B Member

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    Are you saying that journey planners do now implement the rule implied by the additional routeing guide text noted above ( https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/national-routeing-guide-update.99396/page-37#post-4382027 ) ?
     
  19. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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  20. JB_B

    JB_B Member

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    OK - thanks - in that case we're in agreement. As far as I can tell (e.g looking at Reading to Coulsdon South for which NRE offers a travelcard) journey planners haven't changed their behaviour since the mid Nov '19 change to the RG instructions text. ( As expected.)
     
  21. Kilopylae

    Kilopylae Member

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    I've had a look to check whether or not N.R.E. has changed, and it was happy to sell me a Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard from Exeter St David's (£97.80) with the following itinerary, clearly based on the classical interpretation that a Zone Six station may be selected and any permitted route used thereto:

    Exeter St Davids [EXD] > Westbury [WSB]
    Westbury [WSB] > Swindon [SWI]
    Swindon [SWI] > Didcot Parkway [DID]
    Didcot Parkway [DID] > Oxford [OXF]
    Oxford [OXF] > West Ruislip [WRU]

    I would be very surprised to find that a guard on any of those trains would reject an Exeter St Davids out-boundary Travelcard, even without a printed itinerary from N.R.E. - though it now seems that such a journey is "grey area" at best, and I might very much need to bring a supporting document with me!
     
  22. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Another easement was added to the routeing guide this afternoon
    Changes from 21 Feb 2020 (296) to 26 Feb 2020 (297).

    Easement changes:

    Added:

    700905 (Local) Customers from Ashchurch for Tewkesbury travelling to Worcestershire Parkway may travel via Cheltenham Spa. This local easement applies in both directions
    Previously, NRE treated direct trains as valid, as well as ones with a change at Worcester Foregate Street/Shrub Hill. This change adds a few more journey opportunities.

    I have noticed that, if I put this journey into NRE, it usually assumes that anyone travelling via Cheltenham would prefer to go all the way to Gloucester before doubling back. The easement hasn't been implemented on NRE yet, but I worry that this may make it less effective than intended.
     
  23. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Another easement was published this afternoon.
    Changes from 26 Feb 2020 (297) to 03 Mar 2020 (298).

    Easement changes:

    Added:
    700906 (Map) Due to engineering diversions on Sundays from 10 to 31 May 2020, Cross Country trains will be diverted between Leeds and Swinton. This map easement will create temporary routeing links for electronic journey planners that avoid travel through either the Wakefield or Pontefract group routeing points. It will apply in both directions.
    Crosscountry will send their trains via Fitzwilliam, Normanton and Woodlesford on those dates, avoiding the stations in both Pontefract and Wakefield groups.

    There are some trains (such as the Friday 23:15 from Sheffield to Leeds and the Sunday 18:27 from Plymouth to Leeds) which use this route on a more regular basis. This easement does not affect these in the same way.
     
  24. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Another temporary easement was added to the routeing guide this morning:
    Changes from 04 Mar 2020 (299) to 12 Mar 2020 (300).

    Easement changes:

    Added:

    700907 (Map) This easement allows travel from London to Shenfield and beyond on replacement bus without calling at Romford during engineering works on 15/03/2020 and 22/03/2020
    The line from Shenfield to London is closed on both dates, with buses from Ingatestone to Newbury Park and a London Underground connection from Newbury Park.
     
  25. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Two easements were added to the routeing guide this afternoon.
    Changes from 12 Mar 2020 (299) to 25 Mar 2020 (300).

    Added:

    700908 (Map) During engineering works on 22/03/2020 and 29/03/2020, customers travelling from Cleethorpes, Grimsby or Scunthorpe to Manchester or Manchester Airport may travel using Services between Sheffield and Huddesfield. This easement applies in both directions.
    There are no through trains planned on this route on Sunday, and the fastest route then goes via Leeds rather than Sheffield.

    700909 (Doubleback) Customers travelling via Motherwell and via Carlisle may double back between Carstairs and Edinburgh. This easement applies in both directions and applies until 30/05/2020.
    Caledonian Sleeper are currently sending trains to/from Glasgow with a double back between Carstairs and Edinburgh, so this accommodates some journeys using their trains.

    A London-Carstairs or London-Motherwell journey is valid anyway due to it being a through service. This isn't the case if your ticket starts before London, or if you intend to change at Carstairs to go to somewhere like Holytown.
     
  26. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

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    Interesting that 700908 does not mention customers travelling from Habrough or Barnetby. I would have thought from or via Scunthorpe to or via Manchester a more appropriate wording. The easement will have been implemented because TPE trains are diverted Sheffield - Manchester via Huddersfield and that is the route TPE publicity recommends, although I agree going via Leeds is the more sensible route as it is faster and both involve two changes.
     
  27. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Thanks. I didn't check the TPE site yesterday.

    You would need to change three times if you were going to/from Manchester Airport on this route, though, as the Sheffield trains only go as far as Manchester Piccadilly.

    NRE doesn't seem to consider the route in easement 700908 to be a valid itinerary for a Cleethorpes-Manchester journey, though. I suspect this may be (at least in part) because there's no easement to let you double back through Meadowhall for that journey. At least it accepts the route involving rail replacement buses.
     
  28. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    Correct - journey planners don't even get as far as checking for the map easement, as the route is already invalid due to the doubleback, which is through Swinton (and possibly Rotherham, depending on the exact route taken) as well as Meadowhall. It's an interesting diversion.
     

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