National Routeing Guide update

embers25

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It saves a lot of time, the connections at Brookwood are usually awful too and if going from Exeter it can add an hour or more not allowing changing at Woking Also, Brookwood is far from safe at night to wait for prolonged times and its subway is prone to flooding.
 
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Kite159

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It saves a lot of time, the connections at Brookwood are usually awful too and if going from Exeter it can add an hour or more not allowing changing at Woking Also, Brookwood is far from safe at night to wait for prolonged times and its subway is prone to flooding.
And from the trains from Exeter/Salisbury it's normally a 25 minute wait for the next Basingstoke - London stopper, by which time the sprinters will already be beyond Woking.

For example someone traveling from Salisbury to Aldershot on the 11:21 departure from Salisbury today will change at Woking (arriving at 12:17, departing at 12;30) to arrive at Aldershot for 12:50.

Being forced to change at Basingstoke will mean a 25 minute wait for the 12;24 stopper changing at Brookwood via the flood prone subway with a 13 minute connection onto the 13:06 Alton service arriving 30 minutes later at 13;20.
 

Watershed

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I don't see how is it reasonable to double back between Brookwood and Woking to make a change.
Unlike what the Routeing Guide claims, most passengers couldn't care less about whether they are taking the shortest route. They are purely interested in taking the fastest route, or that with the fewest changes. In many cases (including journeys affected by this easement), the fastest route requires the fewest changes.

Doubling back avoids the need for an additional change at Basingstoke and saves an hour on many journeys. It is quite reasonable and by plugging one potential loophole, they have created many more problems for "legitimate" customers who will now be told to change unnecessarily.
 

miklcct

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And from the trains from Exeter/Salisbury it's normally a 25 minute wait for the next Basingstoke - London stopper, by which time the sprinters will already be beyond Woking.

For example someone traveling from Salisbury to Aldershot on the 11:21 departure from Salisbury today will change at Woking (arriving at 12:17, departing at 12;30) to arrive at Aldershot for 12:50.

Being forced to change at Basingstoke will mean a 25 minute wait for the 12;24 stopper changing at Brookwood via the flood prone subway with a 13 minute connection onto the 13:06 Alton service arriving 30 minutes later at 13;20.
Thanks for pointing out such journeys. I was looking at journeys from Ash Vale weekday off-peak and indeed changing at Brookwood will get you faster to Farnborough to connect to the Portsmouth train to Winchester, or connect to other trains at Basingstoke.
 

FenMan

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I know exactly why the Ash Vale restriction has been put in but obviously won't explain more :) The only real surprise is that it's taken so many years for them to finally realise although it is a hug inconvenience.

So please do share the rationale behind making this change.

As far as I can see, the walk-up fares from Alton line stations to destinations west of Basingstoke are always higher than the fares from Woking, so is any revenue being lost?
 

embers25

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Thanks for pointing out such journeys. I was looking at journeys from Ash Vale weekday off-peak and indeed changing at Brookwood will get you faster to Farnborough to connect to the Portsmouth train to Winchester, or connect to other trains at Basingstoke.
The Pompey train is often delayed and arrives in Basingstoke as the Exeter train leaves creating a 1 hour delay.

I'm not gonna list the reasons for this change fare wise, but I'm guessing SWR finally found the loophole. Note also, some fares TO Woking are much higher than the same fare from Woking due to the Heathrow effect. Basically buying a fare to Woking is rarely a good idea. I lived there for years and never bought a fare to or from there, if it gives you any idea of the quirk that is Woking fares.
 

W-on-Sea

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A quick dig around on BRfares.com and the rationale becomes clear..... Can't see it as a reasonable response, though.
 

kieron

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TOC most probabaly that applied for this was TPE? Although Middlesborough services showing as every 2 hours.
Yes, it was TPE. The diversion means that their trains don't quite have enough time to run the normal hourly service between Manchester and Redcar. The timetable for September isn't available yet, but in August they have a trains every 2 hours, and no rail replacement buses in the NE.
 

Watershed

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Yes, it was TPE. The diversion means that their trains don't quite have enough time to run the normal hourly service between Manchester and Redcar. The timetable for September isn't available yet, but in August they have a trains every 2 hours, and no rail replacement buses in the NE.
That's not the reason for the 2 hourly service - the path is identical east of Huddersfield. The real reason is far sillier than that. But I can't say too much about it, other than to say it's entirely deliberate and unnecessary.
 

infobleep

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The Pompey train is often delayed and arrives in Basingstoke as the Exeter train leaves creating a 1 hour delay.

I'm not gonna list the reasons for this change fare wise, but I'm guessing SWR finally found the loophole. Note also, some fares TO Woking are much higher than the same fare from Woking due to the Heathrow effect. Basically buying a fare to Woking is rarely a good idea. I lived there for years and never bought a fare to or from there, if it gives you any idea of the quirk that is Woking fares.
Do you think this so-called loophole could have been fixed without inconveniencing other passengers travelling west?

For the record, I don't actually know what the loophole is.
Edit: I've just worked out what issue they dealt with.

Take Aldershot to Basingstoke. There are times on a Monday evening where changing at Woking is faster. For example, the 17:04, change at Woking is 50 minutes. Change at Brookwood and it is 1 hour 14 minutes. So 24 minutes slower or 32% slower.

Now I am guessing Aldershot to Basingstoke was valid his Woking but correct me if this was never the case.
 
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bcarmicle

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Is there still a reason to keep this loophole secret if it’s been closed and clearly the TOCs know about it (given they closed it)?
 

FenMan

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Do you think this so-called loophole could have been fixed without inconveniencing other passengers travelling west?

For the record, I don't actually know what the loophole is.
Edit: I've just worked out what issue they dealt with.

Take Aldershot to Basingstoke. There are times on a Monday evening where changing at Woking is faster. For example, the 17:04, change at Woking is 50 minutes. Change at Brookwood and it is 1 hour 14 minutes. So 24 minutes slower or 32% slower.

Now I am guessing Aldershot to Basingstoke was valid his Woking but correct me if this was never the case.

And I think we have come full circle? In my first post highlighting this issue I stated my belief that the traditional rule (custom and practice?) for passengers on the Alton line travelling west was they could change at Woking if their ticket was to a destination west of Basingstoke. For journeys to stations to Basingstoke the required change point was Brookwood. This distinction appears to have been lost over time, hence the, in my opinion, heavy handed change to the Routeing Guide.

I'm not aware of any fares from Woking to points west of Basingstoke that would be undercut by allowing this.

This can easily be fixed if the will is there.
 

embers25

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I'm not aware of any fares from Woking to points west of Basingstoke that would be undercut by allowing this.

This can easily be fixed if the will is there.
Basingstoke to Woking in peak is way more than Basingstoke to Ash Vale £26.40 vs £14.50 anytime day return. This is due to the Heathrow mark up SWR put on Woking fares. All stations west of Basi0ngstoke pretty much the Woking fare is up to double in peak. However that wasn't the reason for this change I suspect as SWR are well aware of the Woking rip off fares! The above issue applies to almost every anytime day return to Woking from most parts of SWR.
 
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infobleep

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Basingstoke to Woking in peak is way more than Basingstoke to Ash Vale £26.40 vs £14.50 anytime day return. This is due to the Heathrow mark up SWR put on Woking fares. All stations west of Basi0ngstoke pretty much the Woking fare is up to double in peak. However that wasn't the reason for this change I suspect as SWR are well aware of the Woking rip off fares! The above issue applies to almost every anytime day return to Woking from most parts of SWR.
It also applies to stations, not on the SWR line and I highlighted one such issue to the Strategic Rail Authority back in 2002. They said, on the phone, rail fares were being reviewed, and it would be looked at later in the year. It wasn't.

This was well before I knew of this forum and to keep my mouth shut. :lol::lol:
 
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embers25

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It also applies to stations, not on the SWE line and I highlighted one such issue to the Strategic Rail Authority back in 2002. They said, on the phone, rail fares were being reviewed, and it would be looked at later in the year. It wasn't.

This was well before I knew of this forum and to keep my mouth shut. :lol::lol:
Hence why I mentioned the above without worrying as it is already well known :)
 

kieron

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Some more changes to the routeing guide were published this afternoon.
Changes from 15 Jun 2022 (389) to 24 Jun 2022 (390).

Permitted Route changes:
Birmingham Group (G02) to Warrington Group (G31) gain BM
This journey now has mapped routes via Acton Bridge.

These include the shortest route between Birmingham and Warrington Bank Quay.

Coventry (COV) to Leamington Spa (LMS) gain SM lose WM
Coventry (COV) to Tyseley (TYS) gain BI SM lose GC
Coventry (COV) to Warwick Group (G73) gain SM
No effect.

Smethwick Group (G63) to Warrington Group (G31) gain NJ+MC lose TM
This journey no longer has mapped routes via both Macclesfield and Crewe.

Easement changes:

Added:

701002 (Fare route) During engineering works on the 16 and 17 August 2022, tickets from Worcestershire Parkway priced on (00807) VIA STROUD, (00808) READING STROUD INCLUDING LONDON, (00803) EVESHAM/STROUD, (00827) LONDON STROUD/EVESHAM, (00418) AP KEMBLE/SLOUGH and (00417 AP KEMBLE NOT LONDON will be valid via Yate, Cam & Dursley and Bristol Parkway for journeys via Swindon. This fare route easement applies in both directions
This seems to be indentical to easement 700999, except that it only applies to journeys to or from Worcestershire Parkway.

701003 (Local) Customers travelling to Smithy Bridge or Littleborough, may not not doubleback from Rochdale. This negative local easement applies in both directions.
I think this was permitted because the shortest route calculation doesn't consider double backs. From what I can see, travelling via Rochdale is most useful in the early morning or late evening when both the faster and slower "via Hebden Bridge" services are thinned out.

701004 (Map) During engineering works on the 16 and 17 August 2022, tickets from Worcestershire Parkway to Swindon and beyond may travel via Cheltenham, Gloucester and Bristol Parkway. This map easement applies in both directions
This adds the stations named above to any maps used for route from Worcestershire Parkway on those dates, where the route on the ticket permits. This has some overlap with 700996.

A ticket to somewhere like Swindon or Reading is valid via Bristol without this easement, and a journey to Oxford remains invalid (it's a local journey, so no maps are considered). The easement affects some tickets, however.

Route changes:

Changed (added sections in red, removed ones in green):

TILBRY&GRAVESND (00013) (105 records)
must go via Gravesend (GRV) and Tilbury Town (TIL)
must not go via London Blackfriars (BFR), London Cannon Street (CST), Ebbsfleet International (EBD), London Fenchurch Street (FST), London Bridge (LBG), London Liverpool Street (LST), Northfleet (NFL), Stratford International (SFA), or Stratford (SRA), London Victoria (VIC) or London Waterloo (East) (WAE)
This prevents the tickets from being used via several of the London terminals.

Location changes:

Gain: nlc=2041 crs=THP uic=70 county=00 (16/06/2022-)
Gain: nlc=H058 uic=70 county=00 (11/06/2022-)
Gain: nlc=H059 uic=70 county=00 (11/06/2022-)
Lose: nlc=7164 uic=70 county=00 (26/06/2021-)
This adds Thanet Parkway, Blackpool North Bus/Tram and Blackpool South Bus/Tram, and removes Eurostar UK Interlining.
 

ABB125

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Some more changes to the routeing guide were published this afternoon.
Changes from 15 Jun 2022 (389) to 24 Jun 2022 (390).

Permitted Route changes:
Birmingham Group (G02) to Warrington Group (G31) gain BM
This journey now has mapped routes via Acton Bridge.

These include the shortest route between Birmingham and Warrington Bank Quay
Wasn't this exact journey mentioned in another thread a few days ago, with a complaint that the obvious route (to Bank Quay) wasn't permitted?
Or am I misremembering?
 

embers25

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Which shows that the relevant people do indeed read this forum!
And thanks to a forum member we have lost some VERY useful ticket routeings, which Yorkie did point out was their aim.
 
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pne

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...we have lost some VERY useful ticket routeings
Which of those changes can be ascribed to them, and can you explain some examples of routeings which were lost, please?

(Besides the Birmingham-to-Warrington-Group one which was a gain, not a loss.)
 

embers25

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Which of those changes can be ascribed to them, and can you explain some examples of routeings which were lost, please?

(Besides the Birmingham-to-Warrington-Group one which was a gain, not a loss.)
Read the change. It's not just a gain but a significant loss. Also, the gain no-one stopped in the first place. The loss is significant.
 

RJ

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And thanks to a forum member we have lost some VERY useful ticket routeings, which Yorkie did point out was their aim.

There are always going to be people who hate the fact that some people advertise their ability to think outside the box to make savings and will do something about it purely out of spite.

The best thing to do really is to not drop any hints at all to any audience other than those who you can trust.
 
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MikeWh

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And thanks to a forum member we have lost some VERY useful ticket routeings, which Yorkie did point out was their aim.
Right, need to nip this one in the bud. Please be careful what is alleged to have been said or done by specific people.

Which of those changes can be ascribed to them, and can you explain some examples of routeings which were lost, please?

(Besides the Birmingham-to-Warrington-Group one which was a gain, not a loss.)

Read the change. It's not just a gain but a significant loss. Also, the gain no-one stopped in the first place. The loss is significant.
I'm not sure what you mean by the bold bit. My understanding is that reasonable logical itinerarys were prevented from being sold without issuing multiple tickets.
I don't have the maps to hand, so can't check, but are you referring to the removal of TM from Smethwick to Warrington?
Having read the changes again I think that this is correct. Sadly when complaining about the missing map, Smethwick was cited as a similar example where the map was included. Whoever looked into it obviously saw the 'other issue' and decided to fix that too.
 

tspaul26

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I'm not sure what you mean by the bold bit. My understanding is that reasonable logical itinerarys were prevented from being sold without issuing multiple tickets.
Insofar as the example of Birmingham to Frodsham is concerned, I never encountered any issues in this regard (the niceties of the Routeing Guide notwithstanding).
 

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