National Routeing Guide update

[Merseysider]

Why do I sense that XC had a lot of input in this update?

Because with the reduction of permitted routes, they'll get more revenue if the only permitted routes are only or mostly on their services instead of LM or EMT as previously allowed.

Would it even be worth asking the DfT and PF (FOI requests) if these changes are legal?

 

[VauxhallandI]

Because with the reduction of permitted routes, they'll get more revenue if the only permitted routes are only or mostly on their services instead of LM or EMT as previously allowed.

Would it even be worth asking the DfT and PF (FOI requests) if these changes are legal?

My recent correspondence with the DfT and London TravelWatch is that they don't give a hoot if ATO c have followed the procedure, beggars belief.

 

[infobleep]

My recent correspondence with the DfT and London TravelWatch is that they don't give a hoot if ATO c have followed the procedure, beggars belief.

What you need is someone with a lot of money to challenge it in the courts. I don't have the money nor the time to do so.

 

[kieron]

Why do I sense that XC had a lot of input in this update?

I imagine the headers in the summary fairly closely reflect the groups of changes. Some of them (like "Partial review of Lincoln and Sleaford Routeing point permissions") are dominated by routes with tickets priced by Crosscountry (including a few like Loughborough-Rugeley which are no longer possible without using them), and so probably requested by them, but there were others like "To allow journeys to Norwich from Runcon and Wigan Group G34 using Fare Route 00452 VTWC & CONNECTIONS, map permissions were required via London".

Incidentally, Norwich-Runcorn flexible tickets are all "Not London" ones priced by Crosscountry, but "Not London" tickets from Norwich to any station near Runcorn (not to mention the WCML between Stafford and Lockerbie, none of which have flexible tickets valid via London) are priced by East Midlands Trains.

Anyway...

ATOC had renamed the UP map to "UPMINSTER AND PITSEA" by Thursday. Sadly, I only realised that the map list contains a publicationDate field when it was too late.

They renamed TS from "NORTH AND WEST LONDON TO SOUTH SUSSEX" to "LONDON TO SOUTH ESSEX" on Friday. This fixes a typo and removes a reference in the name to the long-gone route to Gospel Oak and beyond.

They also made some changes which did make their summary:

New Dataset RJRG0351 published 20/03/2015

Review of permissions to/from Clapham Junction routeing Point. First group of changes.​

That sounds ominous.

Map sequences added
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Epsom (EPS) - added sequence 'FC+SD'

Map sequences removed
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Epsom (EPS) - removed sequence 'HR'​

No longer shown on maps on routes via London or the direct line between Balham and Mitcham Junction.
Now shown via Croydon.

Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Mitcham Junction (MIJ) - added sequence 'HR'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Mitcham Junction (MIJ) - removed sequence 'SC'​

No longer mapped via Croydon or Crystal Palace.
Now mapped via Wimbledon.

Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Motspur Park (MOT) - added sequence 'DK'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Motspur Park (MOT) - removed sequence 'SU'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and New Malden (NEM) - added sequence 'EF'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and New Malden (NEM) - removed sequence 'SU'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Raynes Park (RAY) - added sequence 'DK'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Raynes Park (RAY) - removed sequence 'SU'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Raynes Park (RAY) - removed sequence 'SU'
​

No longer mapped via London, leaving only the shortest route.

Clapham Junction (CLJ) and STREATHAM GROUP (G29) - added sequence 'VH'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and STREATHAM GROUP (G29) - removed sequence 'SC'​

No longer mapped via London, Croydon or Mitcham Junction, leaving only the shortest route.

Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Surbiton (SUR) - added sequence 'EF'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Surbiton (SUR) - removed sequence 'SU'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Wimbledon (WIM) - added sequence 'DK'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Wimbledon (WIM) - removed sequence 'SU'​

No longer mapped via London, leaving only the shortest route.

Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Sutton London (SUO) - added sequence 'HR'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Sutton London (SUO) - added sequence 'LP+SD'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Sutton London (SUO) - added sequence 'SU+SD'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Sutton London (SUO) - removed sequence 'SC'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Sutton London (SUO) - removed sequence 'WV+SC'​

No longer mapped via New Cross Gate or Epsom, with a few other routes also lost.
Now mapped via Peckham Rye.

Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Tulse Hill (TUH) - added sequence 'DK+EU'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Tulse Hill (TUH) - added sequence 'LP+BU'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Tulse Hill (TUH) - removed sequence 'LB'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Tulse Hill (TUH) - removed sequence 'SC'​

No longer mapped via Croydon, Crystal Palace or Mitcham Junction.
Now mapped via Earlsfield.

 

[infobleep]

I imagine the headers in the summary fairly closely reflect the groups of changes. Some of them (like "Partial review of Lincoln and Sleaford Routeing point permissions") are dominated by routes with tickets priced by Crosscountry (including a few like Loughborough-Rugeley which are no longer possible without using them), and so probably requested by them, but there were others like "To allow journeys to Norwich from Runcon and Wigan Group G34 using Fare Route 00452 VTWC & CONNECTIONS, map permissions were required via London".

Incidentally, Norwich-Runcorn flexible tickets are all "Not London" ones priced by Crosscountry, but "Not London" tickets from Norwich to any station near Runcorn (not to mention the WCML between Stafford and Lockerbie, none of which have flexible tickets valid via London) are priced by East Midlands Trains.

Anyway...

ATOC had renamed the UP map to "UPMINSTER AND PITSEA" by Thursday. Sadly, I only realised that the map list contains a publicationDate field when it was too late.

They renamed TS from "NORTH AND WEST LONDON TO SOUTH SUSSEX" to "LONDON TO SOUTH ESSEX" on Friday. This fixes a typo and removes a reference in the name to the long-gone route to Gospel Oak and beyond.

They also made some changes which did make their summary:

New Dataset RJRG0351 published 20/03/2015

Review of permissions to/from Clapham Junction routeing Point. First group of changes.​

That sounds ominous.

Map sequences added
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Epsom (EPS) - added sequence 'FC+SD'

Map sequences removed
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Epsom (EPS) - removed sequence 'HR'​

No longer shown on maps on routes via London or the direct line between Balham and Mitcham Junction.
Now shown via Croydon.

Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Mitcham Junction (MIJ) - added sequence 'HR'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Mitcham Junction (MIJ) - removed sequence 'SC'​

No longer mapped via Croydon or Crystal Palace.
Now mapped via Wimbledon.

Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Motspur Park (MOT) - added sequence 'DK'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Motspur Park (MOT) - removed sequence 'SU'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and New Malden (NEM) - added sequence 'EF'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and New Malden (NEM) - removed sequence 'SU'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Raynes Park (RAY) - added sequence 'DK'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Raynes Park (RAY) - removed sequence 'SU'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Raynes Park (RAY) - removed sequence 'SU'
​

No longer mapped via London, leaving only the shortest route.

Clapham Junction (CLJ) and STREATHAM GROUP (G29) - added sequence 'VH'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and STREATHAM GROUP (G29) - removed sequence 'SC'​

No longer mapped via London, Croydon or Mitcham Junction, leaving only the shortest route.

Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Surbiton (SUR) - added sequence 'EF'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Surbiton (SUR) - removed sequence 'SU'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Wimbledon (WIM) - added sequence 'DK'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Wimbledon (WIM) - removed sequence 'SU'​

No longer mapped via London, leaving only the shortest route.

Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Sutton London (SUO) - added sequence 'HR'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Sutton London (SUO) - added sequence 'LP+SD'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Sutton London (SUO) - added sequence 'SU+SD'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Sutton London (SUO) - removed sequence 'SC'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Sutton London (SUO) - removed sequence 'WV+SC'​

No longer mapped via New Cross Gate or Epsom, with a few other routes also lost.
Now mapped via Peckham Rye.

Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Tulse Hill (TUH) - added sequence 'DK+EU'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Tulse Hill (TUH) - added sequence 'LP+BU'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Tulse Hill (TUH) - removed sequence 'LB'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Tulse Hill (TUH) - removed sequence 'SC'​

No longer mapped via Croydon, Crystal Palace or Mitcham Junction.
Now mapped via Earlsfield.

Was it possible previously to go from Surbiton to Clapham Junction via Waterloo?

I doubt it would be any quicker do that from Surbiton but there are more trains to Waterloo than Clapham Junction, especially in the morning.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Whilst the aforementioned routes may no longer be mapped as valid via London, surely easements 700013 and 700014 (as appropriate) still apply, which permit doubling back between Clapham Junction and Victoria, and between Clapham Junction and Waterloo, respectively?

 

[infobleep]

Whilst the aforementioned routes may no longer be mapped as valid via London, surely easements 700013 and 700014 (as appropriate) still apply, which permit doubling back between Clapham Junction and Victoria, and between Clapham Junction and Waterloo, respectively?

I've never fully understood those easements. When I look up services from say Clapham Junction to Guildford and they route you via Waterloo, I'm sure the price that is displayed is more expensive than going direct from Clapham Junction to Guildford.

Yet one time I needed to go to Haywards Heath from Guildford and a particular morning service allowed me to get out at Clapham Junction and double back via Victoria at no extra cost.

It actually enabled me to alight at Victoria that day and enjoy a stroll towards Euston, where I was attending a work shop. I then completed my journey in the evening to Haywards Heath.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Well, in what looks like my last response on this matter as I seem to be the only person on the planet that has any interest!

After insisting on me going around the houses talking to Tom, Dick and Harry it seems London TravelWatch aren't interested either. I wish they could have just told me in the first instance.

I found it amazing that the Director of Policy couldn't operate NRE.

********************
Dear John

Thank you for your email.

While I can empathise with your frustration with this matter no one at London TravelWatch is able to help you further.

*********************

Thanks for your response.

I have some observations.

1) According to National Rail enquiries going via Cheshunt is quicker than directly from Liverpool St, this just took me two minutes to check. Thirty minutes as opposed to thirty five minutes in some cases.
2) Whether it is compatible with Oyster is not relevant at the moment, there are two systems working alongside each other. I feel this segregation of services is not in keeping with the integrated train network.
3) What happens after 31st May 2015 is fine but presently we are not and we certainly were not when this change was made in November 2014.
4) The DfT have shrugged responsibility for their actions or the lack of the process being followed by ATOC, I stated this further down the e-mail chain.

“The reason the Department does not hold any further information about the introduction of the negative easement, beyond the information already provided to you on 1st August, is that ATOC did not formally request permission for the change. If the Department’s consent has been sought, then the Department would normally be expected to hold correspondence from ATOC seeking consent, communications between the Department and Passenger Focus relating to the application, and the Department’s response to ATOC. However, since in this case the Department’s consent was not sought, it follows that the Department does not hold the information”

I would expect this to be a major concern for a passenger group especially if the DfT seem unwilling to investigate the flouting of their own laws?

So the journey is quicker via Cheshunt, it is within three miles. The fundamental rules of the Routing Guide has been changed without permission of the DfT. The DfT don’t seem bothered and yet there is no appetite from London Travel Watch either?

This has taken months of merry go around emails with many parties, can you see my frustration here?

***************************

Dear John

Thank you for your recent email on this subject unfortunately we are not able to take this further to achieve the outcome that you want..

Having discussed your concerns with our Director of Policy the reinstatement of this easement would in London TravelWatch’s view complicate matters, as according to National Rail enquires journeys via Cheshunt are longer in duration than direct services from the Liverpool Street direction. Also, it would be incompatible with the zonal fares system for Oyster/contactless and Travelcard fares, in advance of the transfer of responsibility for this route to Transport for London (TfL).

It is our understanding that TfL intend to eventually phase out the availability of point to point season tickets for journeys wholly within the Oyster area when they take over responsibility for this route under London Overground on the 31st May 2015. From this date there is likely to be a revision of some fares from Theobalds Grove and other stations to bring fares at these stations in line with other TfL (fares reductions as we understand it).

With regards to the last two questions you raised these need to be asked of the Department of Transport as London TravelWatch has no remit to make an investigation into the working of ATOC.

I’m sorry I can’t help you further with this matter.

********************

I would like three mile rule to revert to its original description in that it is “always valid”

Therefore the negative easement for travel to Theobalds via Cheshunt to be removed.

I would like an investigation in to how ATOC have introduced the easement without going through due procedure.

I would like an investigation in to how they can change a fundamental rule of the National Routing Guide, even with due procedure I cannot see how this is allowed.

Regards,

******************

Dear John

Thank you for your email.

Can you please answer the question about the outcome you are looking for that I asked at the end of my earlier email. The answer should help me respond to the points you’ve raised although there maybe little more we can add.

Regards

*****************

Thank you for the update from your Director of Policy to which I would like to respond with some observations and questions:

· Are London Travelwatch (and Passenger focus) not concerned that this change has been made without consultation? Would it not be reasonable to assume that this is not the only occurrence of this? What are the contractual obligations and remedies for non-compliance?
· The three mile rule is not an easement but a nationally applicable rule. I believe this has been in place since the start of rail privatisation and was also valid during BR days. Therefore a fundamental function of the code of conduct for all TOC’s has been changed by ATOC. Is this not letting the fox rule the hen hut?
· Season tickets are not necessarily zonal and are not priced so; therefore I am not clear on the relevance to point to point tickets.
· I am also under the understanding that the journey is still quicker via Cheshunt in some cases so the requirement is still valid

With these points in mind the rule is as valid today as it ever has been. The only doubt seems to be the implication that the TFL run railway will no longer be interoperable with a National Railway which I don’t believe is in keeping with a inter operable system which is what we were sold in 1994.

******************
Thank you for your email.

Before writing to you I asked our Director of Policy and Investigation to comment on your email. He gave me the following:

We were not consulted on this change, although it does simplify the ticketing arrangements for these stations considerably and in a way that allows for the use of Oyster / Contactless cards – Cheshunt of course is in a different zone to Theobalds Grove and Waltham Cross. I suspect that the easement is something that was introduced a long time ago when service frequencies were less and where a faster journey would have been possible going via Cheshunt. It also would have been required pre-Oyster to accommodate the needs of people who would travel from one station but come back to another.

I am of the view that these easement would be somewhat anachronistic and difficult for most passengers to understand if it was reintroduced.

I trust this answers your concerns. However, if it doesn’t can you please let me know specifically where it doesn’t and what outcome you are looking for

*****************
I have now received replies from ATOC and DfT regarding this matter so am reverting to London Travel Watch to assist.

In the first attachment ATOC cannot confirm any consultation took place with Passenger Focus (who in turn state I am to contact yourselves not them).

In the second document from the DfT there is a paragraph that states:

“The reason the Department does not hold any further information about the introduction of the negative easement, beyond the information already provided to you on 1st August, is that ATOC did not formally request permission for the change. If the Department’s consent has been sought, then the Department would normally be expected to hold correspondence from ATOC seeking consent, coummincations between the Department and Passenger Focus relating to the application, and the Department’s response to ATOC. However, since in this case the Department’s consent was not sought, it follows that the Department does not hold the information”

There seems to be a merry go round in place between Abellio Greater Anglia, ATOC and the DfT which is making what should be a very simple request a very confusing and labour intensive activity.

I have received no evidence of communications and justifications regarding this easement, bar one suggesting it was done purely for commercial reasons by AGA.

Furthermore it has uncovered another episode where upon the material wording of the Routing Guide has been changed regarding the wording surrounding the three mile rule. This is documented in the first attachment and the ramifications are huge.

Best Regards,

John Gill

 

[kieron]

Was it possible previously to go from Surbiton to Clapham Junction via Waterloo?

I doubt it would be any quicker do that from Surbiton but there are more trains to Waterloo than Clapham Junction, especially in the morning.

Sort of. I haven't included any routes which double back through a routeing point, so the routes I saw which have been lost go to Clapham Junction from Waterloo or Victoria, but go in from Surbiton via Streatham.

So one of the lost routes is Surbiton - Wimbledon - Streatham - London Bridge - Waterloo East - Waterloo - Clapham Junction. None of them were all that quick.

I've never fully understood those easements. When I look up services from say Clapham Junction to Guildford and they route you via Waterloo, I'm sure the price that is displayed is more expensive than going direct from Clapham Junction to Guildford.

Clapham Junction to Guildford only has "not London" tickets, which I believe excludes travel via Waterloo. The site you used to look it up probably offered a combination of tickets.

 

[infobleep]

Sort of. I haven't included any routes which double back through a routeing point, so the routes I saw which have been lost go to Clapham Junction from Waterloo or Victoria, but go in from Surbiton via Streatham.

So one of the lost routes is Surbiton - Wimbledon - Streatham - London Bridge - Waterloo East - Waterloo - Clapham Junction. None of them were all that quick.

Clapham Junction to Guildford only has "not London" tickets, which I believe excludes travel via Waterloo. The site you used to look it up probably offered a combination of tickets.

Thanks for that. Wouldn't have thought of a route via Stretham. The ticket I was using once was a Guildford to Haywards Heath via Clapham Junction. I travelled out on the 6.53 fast and that at the time allowed me to change at Clapham Junction, travel to Victoria and then get a train down to Haywards Heath.

However if I travelled on the 7.07, which didn't stop at Clapham Junction on the way out, I couldn't do the same thing as it cost more. I couldn't understand why this was the case as I'm both cases I pass through Clapham Junction twice.

I can understand why Guildford to Clapham Junction has a non London, as people travelling to Waterloo would use it instead of a ticket to Waterloo. However there are times of the day, during peak rush hour, when it's quicker to go via Waterloo to get to and from Guildford from and to Clapham Junction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Looking it up now, it's no longer possible to do what I did. Whether this update changed that or an earlier one I don't know.

At the time I asked the question but was told to ask someone else. I did but got no reply a d didn't follow it up. I wasn't on this forum as the time or I might have asked someone to explain it.

I don't understand the easements relating to Clapham Junction and Wateeloo/Victoria.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I don't understand the easements relating to Clapham Junction and Wateeloo/Victoria.

Take, for example, Salisbury to Gatwick Airport. The allowed routes include:

-- Clapham Junction not London
-- + Any Permitted

The second is clearly the fare for travel via London and the easement is useful if you want to use this fare. In the simple case you go Salisbury - Waterloo, tube to Victoria and then Victoria - Gatwick. However, for routes into London via Clapham Junction both Victoria and Waterloo are allowed termini: you can go Waterloo - Gatwick or Victoria - Salisbury by changing at Clapham Junction in each case. So, your Salisbury - Gatwick journey could be Salisbury - Clapham, Clapham - Victoria, Victoria - Gatwick, which you might want to do by using the non-stop Gatwick Express trains. Although both legs of the journey, Salisbury - London and London - Gatwick, are perfectly allowed using these trains, i.e. it would be no problem if you had separate tickets, the *through* journey on *one* ticket requires a double back from Victoria to Clapham. The easement allows this double back, which generally would not be permitted.

 

[infobleep]

Take, for example, Salisbury to Gatwick Airport. The allowed routes include:

-- Clapham Junction not London
-- + Any Permitted

The second is clearly the fare for travel via London and the easement is useful if you want to use this fare. In the simple case you go Salisbury - Waterloo, tube to Victoria and then Victoria - Gatwick. However, for routes into London via Clapham Junction both Victoria and Waterloo are allowed termini: you can go Waterloo - Gatwick or Victoria - Salisbury by changing at Clapham Junction in each case. So, your Salisbury - Gatwick journey could be Salisbury - Clapham, Clapham - Victoria, Victoria - Gatwick, which you might want to do by using the non-stop Gatwick Express trains. Although both legs of the journey, Salisbury - London and London - Gatwick, are perfectly allowed using these trains, i.e. it would be no problem if you had separate tickets, the *through* journey on *one* ticket requires a double back from Victoria to Clapham. The easement allows this double back, which generally would not be permitted.

Thanks for reply. So on a via Clapham Junction not London ticket you would not be allowed to use the easement I take it?

 

[MichaelAMW]

Thanks for reply. So on a via Clapham Junction not London ticket you would not be allowed to use the easement I take it?

That's correct, because the easement only applies to a bunch of routes that are all via London.

(In fact, the Victoria double-back easement doesn't include Any Permitted, although the Waterloo one does, so in theory my example is wrong, but wouldn't be if the route were London. However, in practice it works ok with the booking engines. It's probably an error is how the easement was written up.)

 

[hassaanhc]

Could the following be linked to the recent changes?

Earlier on Southern MixingDeck I was looking for timings for Hounslow to Surbiton on Sunday 19 April. I noticed that the only options it gave me were for travelling via Staines and Chertsey with a change at Byfleet & New Haw, waiting there for ~40 minutes. I then entered "via Clapham Junction" and said nothing could be found. There are no engineering works affecting said area. And there are only "Any Permitted" fares.

Does this mean you can no longer travel via Clapham Junction on a Hounslow to Surbiton ticket, which is much faster than going via Staines and Chertsey?

E.g. Mon-Sat
Hounslow to Clapham Junction: 6tph
Clapham Junction to Surbiton: 6-10tph
vs
Hounslow to Weybridge: 2tph
Weybridge to Surbiton: 4tph
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I just tried it on a Monday to Saturday, and in addition to going via Weybridge it also suggests changing at both Twickenham and New Malden after going via Kingston.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I tried various combinations from Hounslow to stations adjacent to Surbiton (Hinchley Wood/Berrylands/Esher/Thames Ditton). Neither gave travel via Clapham Junction, and Esher was only showing a "via Weybridge" fare. Isleworth (adjacent to Hounslow) was the same, but one station further at Syon Lane did allow travel via Clapham Junction on all (with some combinations only showing "not via London" fares).

 

[FenMan]

For practical purposes, and given the prices are lower, wouldn't passengers just use Oyster if travelling via Clapham Junction?

 

[higthomas]

The only mapped route from Hounslow to Surbiton is indeed via Weybridge, but you would also be valid travelling via Hampton Wick, as this is the shortest route.

It is odd though, but from what I can see all the nearby routing points, e.g. Twickenham are valid via Clapham, it seems to be a bit of an anomaly.

 

[infobleep]

For practical purposes, and given the prices are lower, wouldn't passengers just use Oyster if travelling via Clapham Junction?

If it is currently not technically valid not to go via Clapham Junction, what price would Oyster charge if you tapped in at Hounslow and out again at Surbiton?

 

[Deerfold]

If it is currently not technically valid not to go via Clapham Junction, what price would Oyster charge if you tapped in at Hounslow and out again at Surbiton?

Oyster does not use the routeing guide to calculate valid routes.

Oyster would charge £4 peak or £2.60 off-peak for an adult.

http://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payment...+Station&ToId=910GSURBITN&PassengerType=Adult

 

[infobleep]

Oyster does not use the routeing guide to calculate valid routes.

Oyster would charge £4 peak or £2.60 off-peak for an adult.

http://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payment...+Station&ToId=910GSURBITN&PassengerType=Adult

OK. I didn't know that. So does that mean when travelling using Oyster you don't need to follow the routing guide? Or is it that you need to follow it but Oyster doesn't for calculations.

 

[MrJamesBrown]

OK. I didn't know that. So does that mean when travelling using Oyster you don't need to follow the routing guide? Or is it that you need to follow it but Oyster doesn't for calculations.

As long as you stick to the maximum journey time then the actual route does not matter.

 

[RJ]

OK. I didn't know that. So does that mean when travelling using Oyster you don't need to follow the routing guide? Or is it that you need to follow it but Oyster doesn't for calculations.

You can take whatever route you like within the Oyster area, so long as you touch in at the start of your journey and touch out at the end of it! The default Oyster fare appears to cover zones 2-6.

It is a strange anomaly though - it takes around 75 minutes to travel via Weybridge, but around 55 minutes to go via Clapham Junction. The pricing is clearly in line with other Zone 2-6 fares in London, right down to the lack of any Off Peak paper ticket options. However, anyone wanting a season from Clapham Junction to Weybridge or similar stands to benefit.

 

[infobleep]

You can take whatever route you like within the Oyster area, so long as you touch in at the start of your journey and touch out at the end of it! The default Oyster fare appears to cover zones 2-6.

It is a strange anomaly though - it takes around 75 minutes to travel via Weybridge, but around 55 minutes to go via Clapham Junction. The pricing is clearly in line with other Zone 2-6 fares in London, right down to the lack of any Off Peak paper ticket options. However, anyone wanting a season from Clapham Junction to Weybridge or similar stands to benefit.

Thanks for explain the Oyster.

 

[hassaanhc]

The only mapped route from Hounslow to Surbiton is indeed via Weybridge, but you would also be valid travelling via Hampton Wick, as this is the shortest route.

It is odd though, but from what I can see all the nearby routing points, e.g. Twickenham are valid via Clapham, it seems to be a bit of an anomaly.

Don't think anyone would ever guess that via Hampton Wick is the shortest route . Nor would it occur to most people as it requires two changes and is not usually possible on a Sunday either due to no service from Hounslow to Twickenham on that day. Plus they're all 2tph services rest of the week if going that way, while the Clapham Junction route has more frequent services so more journey opportunities.

You can take whatever route you like within the Oyster area, so long as you touch in at the start of your journey and touch out at the end of it! The default Oyster fare appears to cover zones 2-6.

It is a strange anomaly though - it takes around 75 minutes to travel via Weybridge, but around 55 minutes to go via Clapham Junction. The pricing is clearly in line with other Zone 2-6 fares in London, right down to the lack of any Off Peak paper ticket options. However, anyone wanting a season from Clapham Junction to Weybridge or similar stands to benefit.

When I travelled via Weybridge, in June 2014, it was valid that way (although I went in the reverse direction, Surbiton TO Hounslow). Ticket wasn't checked though. I don't think many staff will be aware that the most obvious and reasonable route via Clapham Junction is not actually permitted currently, and anyone will think it is ludicrous to not be allowed that way.

For Clapham Junction to Weybridge, there is only the NOT VIA LONDON available, which will of course be valid via both routes. However, it is the Waterloo to either Weybridge or Addlestone where it is cheaper to go via Surbiton than via Staines (and will include both the Hounslow and Richmond routes). For seasons, at Weybridge the difference is more than £6 on a weekly (ANY PERMITTED vs VIA WIMBLEDON, routing also for day tickets), while for Addlestone it is just over £2 (ANY PERMITTED vs VIA WEYBRIDGE but for seasons only, there is just the Any Permitted for day tickets). I'm certain that in the peaks the route via Staines is busy for a much shorter length than the mainline via Surbiton so I don't understand the pricing. It is less prone to issues as well .

 

[kieron]

There was another update yesterday, although this one just added a couple of temporary easements for the weekend.

New Dataset RJRG0352 published 01/04/2015


Easements
700572: To allow Journey Planners to find journeys for fares on Fare Route 00830 'Reading not London' on Bus Replacement services which do not travel via Reading, this positive Fare Route easement will operate between 03 -06 April 2015. This easement applies in both directions.​

Fairly self explanatory, although I wonder how many people have overpaid for tickets because ATOC didn't do this when the closure was agreed.

700573: To allow Journey Planners to find journeys from Great Missenden that utilise engineering work Bus Replacement services on fare route 00264 'Chalfont & Latimer', this positive fare route easement will apply 03 - 06 April 2015. this easement applies in both directions​

What I'm getting is that someone with a ticket from Great Missenden with a "Chalfont & Latimer" route can travel wherever they like over the weekend, so long as it involves a rail replacement 'bus. Am I close?

Easements changed
700505: Customers travelling from Fleet via Reading West may travel via Basingstoke. This easement applies in both directions. Exclude locations added in data to Journey planners

700186: Customers travelling from/to Chorley or Adlington (Lancashire) via Salford Crescent may travel via Bolton. This easement applies in both directions. More Origin/Destination locations added to data sent to Journey Planners.​

Neither of these easements has changed.

 

[thebigcheese]

Another update yesterday... Seems it was possible to travel via St Pancras on a ticket between Gravesend and Stood - wonder what triggered this to be tightened up

New Dataset RJRG0352 published 10/04/2015

Changes made to align Map sequences for Ebbsfleet North Kent

Map sequence added

Charlton (CTN) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - added sequence 'CT+HK'
Charlton (CTN) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - added sequence 'CT+KL+HK'
Dartford (DFD) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - added sequence 'HK'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and LONDON GROUP (G01) - added sequence 'HK+NK'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Slade Green (SGR) - added sequence 'HK+KL'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Strood Kent (SOO) - added sequence 'HK'

Map sequences removed

Charlton (CTN) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - removed sequence 'CT+HS'
Dartford (DFD) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - removed sequence 'LO'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and LONDON GROUP (G01) - removed sequence 'HK'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Slade Green (SGR) - removed sequence 'HS+CT'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Strood Kent (SOO) - removed sequence 'LO'

Review of map permissions in SW London to ensure routes via Clapham Junction


Map sequence added

Feltham (FEL) and Surbiton (SUR) - added sequence 'TW+EF'
Feltham (FEL) and Surbiton (SUR) - added sequence 'WV'
Hounslow (HOU) and Surbiton (SUR) - added sequence 'TW+EF'
New Malden (NEM) and Richmond London (RMD) - added sequence 'EF+TW'
Raynes Park (RAY) and Richmond London (RMD) - added sequence 'EF+TW'
Richmond London (RMD) and Surbiton (SUR) - added sequence 'TW+EF'
Richmond London (RMD) and Wimbledon (WIM) - added sequence 'TW+EF'
Twickenham (TWI) and Wimbledon (WIM) - added sequence 'WX+SU'


Map sequence removed


Feltham (FEL) and Surbiton (SUR) - removed sequence 'WX+SU'
Raynes Park (RAY) and Richmond London (RMD) - removed sequence 'SU+WX'
Richmond London (RMD) and Surbiton (SUR) - removed sequence 'WX+SU'
Twickenham (TWI) and Wimbledon (WIM) - removed sequence 'TW+SU'



Deletion of temporary map permissions and easements that facilitated engineering work diversionaery routes.

Map sequences removed

Chester (CTR) and LONDON GROUP (G01) - removed sequence 'EJ+BG+MM'
Crewe (CRE) and LONDON GROUP (G01) - removed sequence 'BV+BG+MM'

LONDON GROUP (G01) and EARLESTOWN GROUP (G78) - removed sequence 'MM+BG+LC'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and HUNTS CROSS GROUP (G70) - removed sequence 'MM+BG+BV'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and HUNTS CROSS GROUP (G70) - removed sequence 'MM+BG+EV'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and Huyton (HUY) - removed sequence 'MM+BG+BV'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and Huyton (HUY) - removed sequence 'MM+BG+EV'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) - removed sequence 'MM+BG+BV'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) - removed sequence 'MM+BG+EV'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and Llandudno Junction (LLJ) - removed sequence 'MM+BG+EJ'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and Runcorn (RUN) - removed sequence 'MM+BG+BJ'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and Runcorn (RUN) - removed sequence 'MM+BG+EV'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and Shotton (SHT) - removed sequence 'MM+BG+EJ'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and STAFFORD GROUP (G65) - removed sequence 'MM+BG+SF'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and Stoke On Trent (SOT) - removed sequence 'MM+EM'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and WREXHAM GROUP (G49) - removed sequence 'MM+BG+BJ'

Easements removed

700543: Travel to, from and via Stafford to London St Pancras is prohibited via Nuneaton and Leicester; except during engineering blockades of the West Coast Mainline. This easement applies in both directions on the 14th; 15th; 21st and 22nd February 2015 and allows journey planners to use the route into St Pancras. It prevents the use of the temporary map permissions on other dates.
700558: Travel to, from and via Stafford to London st Pancras is prohibited via nuneaton and leicester, except during engineering blockades of the West Coast main line. This easement applies in both directions between 03-06 April 2015 and allows journey planners to use the route into London St Pancras.
700561: This positive Fare Route easement will allow tickets on Route VWC & Connections to travel over the diversionary route between Nuneaton and London St Pancras during the engineering blockade at Watford at Easter 03 April to 06 April 2015.This easement applies in both directions
700565: To allow travel on tickets routed to Heathrow Bus, this fare route easement will allow the use of Rail Replacement bus Services via Reading Bus during Easter engineering works 03 to 06 April 2015. this easement applies in both directions
700571: This positive fare route easement will allow retail systems to offer journeys on tickets routed 00635 WOKING during engineering works when services do not operate through Woking.
700572: To allow Journey Planners to find journeys for fares on Fare Route 00830 'Reading not London' on Bus Replacement services which do not travel via Reading, this positive Fare Route easement will operate between 03 -06 April 2015. This easement applies in both directions.
700573: To allow Journey Planners to find journeys from Great Missenden that utilise engineering work Bus Replacement services on fare route 00264 'Chalfont & Latimer', this positive fare route easement will apply 03 - 06 April 2015. this easement applies in both directions


Easement total 636 easement(s) (previously: 643)


Circuitous Route: 257 (previously 259)
Doubleback: 87 (previously 87)
Fare route: 13 (previously 18)
Local: 55 (previously 55)
Manual: 15 (previously 15)
Map: 5 (previously 5)
Routeing Point: 204 (previously 204)

 

[RJ]

New Dataset RJRG0352 published 10/04/2015

Changes made to align Map sequences for Ebbsfleet North Kent

Map sequence added

Charlton (CTN) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - added sequence 'CT+HK'
Charlton (CTN) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - added sequence 'CT+KL+HK'
Dartford (DFD) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - added sequence 'HK'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and LONDON GROUP (G01) - added sequence 'HK+NK'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Slade Green (SGR) - added sequence 'HK+KL'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Strood Kent (SOO) - added sequence 'HK'

Map sequences removed

Charlton (CTN) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - removed sequence 'CT+HS'
Dartford (DFD) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - removed sequence 'LO'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and LONDON GROUP (G01) - removed sequence 'HK'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Slade Green (SGR) - removed sequence 'HS+CT'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Strood Kent (SOO) - removed sequence 'LO'

That last one hasn't filtered through to RJIS or the journey planners yet - if anyone needs screenshots to prove that it was valid via London, I suggest they hurry up! Another HS1 loophole closed, quite a few more there for the taking however

 

[kieron]

Another update yesterday... Seems it was possible to travel via St Pancras on a ticket between Gravesend and Stood - wonder what triggered this to be tightened up

Routes to and from Gravesend haven't changed, only Ebbsfleet ones. Ebbsfleet is one of a small number of stations which are routeing points, but have no other stations associated with them.

In any case, the effects of the changes are as follows:

Charlton (CTN) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD); and
Richmond London (RMD) and Wimbledon (WIM):
None whatsoever.

Dartford (DFD) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD):
No longer mapped via London.
Now mapped on the shortest route from Dartford to Ebbsfleet, via Gravesend.

Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and LONDON GROUP (G01):
This was only mapped on HS1. It's now also mapped via Gravesend and Dartford.

Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Slade Green (SGR):
The changes listed have no effect in themselves.
As this is one of the many routes for which LONDON is a mapped route, you can now go to London via Dartford using a "plus high speed" ticket.

Feltham (FEL) and Surbiton (SUR):
No longer mapped via Twickenham or London.
Now mapped via Staines.

Hounslow (HOU) and Surbiton (SUR); and
New Malden (NEM) and Richmond London (RMD):
Was only mapped via Chertsey. Now also mapped via Clapham Junction.

Raynes Park (RAY) and Richmond London (RMD); and
Richmond London (RMD) and Surbiton (SUR):
No longer mapped via London, Kingston upon Thames or Chiswick.

Twickenham (TWI) and Wimbledon (WIM):
Was only mapped via Richmond and Clapham Junction. Now mapped via Kingston upon Thames and via Chiswick.

LONDON GROUP (G01) and Chester (CTR), Crewe (CRE), HUNTS CROSS GROUP (G70), Huyton (HUY), LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18), Llandudno Junction (LLJ), Runcorn (RUN), Shotton (SHT), STAFFORD GROUP (G65), Stoke On Trent (SOT) or WREXHAM GROUP (G49):
No longer mapped via the MML from London to Leicester.

LONDON GROUP (G01) and EARLESTOWN GROUP (G78):
No longer mapped via Oakham or Narborough.

 

[thebigcheese]

Routes to and from Gravesend haven't changed, only Ebbsfleet ones.

Ah sorry I had just assumed. I was travelling back through St Pancakes on the 9th at 23.00 with a ticket for Ebbsfleet and was told that after an incident earlier in the day an e-mail had gone round banning the ticket I was using; I just assumed that this update was the response (altho my ticket wasn't from Gravesend).

Disappointed to hear that Dartford to Ebbsfleet was valid Via London until now - would have saved me a fair few pennies! I need to get myself to a forum ticket course at some point
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
More tightening around Ebbsfleet:



New Dataset RJRG0354 published 16/04/2015

Changes made as a result of Journey Planners unable to findf a journey from Hull to Wilmslow via Stockport.

Map sequence added

Cheadle Hulme (CHU) and Hazel Grove (HAZ) - added sequence 'HO'
Cheadle Hulme (CHU) and WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) - added sequence 'HO'

Hazel Grove (HAZ) and Stockport (SPT) - added sequence 'HO'

WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) and Gilberdyke (GBD) - added sequence 'GM+HM'
WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) and Gilberdyke (GBD) - added sequence 'HO'
WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) and Hazel Grove (HAZ) - added sequence 'HO'
WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) and Hull (HUL) - added sequence 'GM+HM'
WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) and Hull (HUL) - added sequence 'HO'
WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) and Selby (SBY) - added sequence 'GM+HM'
WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) and Stockport (SPT) - added sequence 'HO'


Map sequence removed

Cheadle Hulme (CHU) and Hazel Grove (HAZ) - removed sequence 'MH'
Cheadle Hulme (CHU) and WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) - removed sequence 'MH'

Hazel Grove (HAZ) and Stockport (SPT) - removed sequence 'MH'

WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) and Gilberdyke (GBD) - removed sequence 'HM'
WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) and Hazel Grove (HAZ) - removed sequence 'MH'
WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) and Hull (HUL) - removed sequence 'HM'
WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) and Selby (SBY) - removed sequence 'SK+HM'
WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) and Stockport (SPT) - removed sequence 'MH'



Changes made to align Map sequences for Ebbsfleet North Kent; including a review of Map NK

Map sequence added

Beckenham Junction (BKJ) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - added sequence 'KL+HK'
Blackheath (BKH) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - added sequence 'NK+HK'
Blackheath (BKH) and Gravesend (GRV) - added sequence 'NK'
BROMLEY SOUTH GROUP (G06) and Slade Green (SGR) - added sequence 'VH+NK'
Charlton (CTN) and Denmark Hill (DMK) - added sequence 'VL'
Charlton (CTN) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - added sequence 'NK+HK'
Charlton (CTN) and Nunhead (NHD) - added sequence 'VL'
Charlton (CTN) and Peckham Rye (PMR) - added sequence 'VL'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - added sequence 'PK+NK+HK'
Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Gravesend (GRV) - added sequence 'PK+NK'
Dartford (DFD) and CROYDON GROUP (G08) - added sequence 'NK+BU+VB'
Dartford (DFD) and Horsham (HRH) - added sequence 'NK+BU+SD+AR'
Dartford (DFD) and Horsham (HRH) - added sequence 'NK+BU+VB+XB'
Dartford (DFD) and Lewes (LWS) - added sequence 'NK+BU+VB'
Dartford (DFD) and LONDON GROUP (G01) - added sequence 'CT'
Dartford (DFD) and LONDON GROUP (G01) - added sequence 'NK+VL'
Dartford (DFD) and Mitcham Junction (MIJ) - added sequence 'NK+BU+TK'
Dartford (DFD) and Sutton London (SUO) - added sequence 'NK+BU+SD'
Dartford (DFD) and Sutton London (SUO) - added sequence 'NK+BU+VB+SD'
Denmark Hill (DMK) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - added sequence 'NK+HK'
Denmark Hill (DMK) and New Cross (NWX) - added sequence 'EL'
DORKING GROUP (G10) and New Cross (NWX) - added sequence 'AR+SD+BU+NK'
DORKING GROUP (G10) and New Cross (NWX) - added sequence 'AR+SD+EL'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and BROMLEY SOUTH GROUP (G06) - added sequence 'HK+KL'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Grove Park (GRP) - added sequence 'HK+NK'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Hither Green (HGR) - added sequence 'HK+NK'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Lewisham (LEW) - added sequence 'HK+NK'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and LONDON GROUP (G01) - added sequence 'HK+NK+CT'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and LONDON GROUP (G01) - added sequence 'HK+NK+VL'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and New Cross (NWX) - added sequence 'HK+NK'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Nunhead (NHD) - added sequence 'HK+NK'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and ORPINGTON GROUP (G85) - added sequence 'HK+KL'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Peckham Rye (PMR) - added sequence 'HK+NK'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Shortlands (SRT) - added sequence 'HK+KL'
FORD GROUP (G61) and New Cross (NWX) - added sequence 'HR+HE+SD+BU+EL'
Gatwick Airport (GTW) and New Cross (NWX) - added sequence 'XE+EL'
Gravesend (GRV) and Horsham (HRH) - added sequence 'NK+BU+SD+AR'
Gravesend (GRV) and Horsham (HRH) - added sequence 'NK+BU+SD+XB'
Gravesend (GRV) and Horsham (HRH) - added sequence 'NK+BU+VB+AR'
Gravesend (GRV) and Horsham (HRH) - added sequence 'NK+BU+VB+XB'
Gravesend (GRV) and Lewisham (LEW) - added sequence 'NK'
Gravesend (GRV) and New Cross (NWX) - added sequence 'NK'
Gravesend (GRV) and Nunhead (NHD) - added sequence 'NK'
Gravesend (GRV) and Slade Green (SGR) - added sequence 'KL'
Guildford (GLD) and New Cross (NWX) - added sequence 'AR+XE+EL'
Horsham (HRH) and New Cross (NWX) - added sequence 'XC+VB+BU+EL'
Kingston (KNG) and New Cross (NWX) - added sequence 'WW+PU+EL'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and Gravesend (GRV) - added sequence 'CT+NK'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and Gravesend (GRV) - added sequence 'VL+NK'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and Horsham (HRH) - added sequence 'WX+SC'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and Slade Green (SGR) - added sequence 'VL+NK'
New Cross (NWX) and Peckham Rye (PMR) - added sequence 'EL'
New Cross (NWX) and Three Bridges (TBD) - added sequence 'EL+BU+VB'
REDHILL GROUP (G60) and New Cross (NWX) - added sequence 'VB+BU+EL'
STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and Slade Green (SGR) - added sequence 'VB+BU+NK'


Map sequence removed

Blackheath (BKH) and Gravesend (GRV) - removed sequence 'FL'
BROMLEY SOUTH GROUP (G06) and Slade Green (SGR) - removed sequence 'DE+NK'
Charlton (CTN) and Denmark Hill (DMK) - removed sequence 'CT+NK'
Charlton (CTN) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - removed sequence 'CT+HK'
Charlton (CTN) and Ebbsfleet International (EBD) - removed sequence 'CT+KL+HK'
Charlton (CTN) and Peckham Rye (PMR) - removed sequence 'CT+NK'
Dartford (DFD) and BROMLEY SOUTH GROUP (G06) - removed sequence 'NK+DE'
Dartford (DFD) and CROYDON GROUP (G08) - removed sequence 'NK+LB'
Dartford (DFD) and Horsham (HRH) - removed sequence 'NK+SC'
Dartford (DFD) and Lewes (LWS) - removed sequence 'NK+LB'
Dartford (DFD) and LONDON GROUP (G01) - removed sequence 'NK'
Dartford (DFD) and Mitcham Junction (MIJ) - removed sequence 'NK+LB'
Dartford (DFD) and New Cross (NWX) - removed sequence 'CT'
Dartford (DFD) and Peckham Rye (PMR) - removed sequence 'FL'
Dartford (DFD) and Peckham Rye (PMR) - removed sequence 'FN'
Dartford (DFD) and Sutton London (SUO) - removed sequence 'NK+SC'
DORKING GROUP (G10) and New Cross (NWX) - removed sequence 'SC+NK'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and Hither Green (HGR) - removed sequence 'HS+CT'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and LONDON GROUP (G01) - removed sequence 'HK+NK'
Ebbsfleet International (EBD) and New Cross (NWX) - removed sequence 'HS+CT'
FORD GROUP (G61) and New Cross (NWX) - removed sequence 'SC+NK'
Gatwick Airport (GTW) and New Cross (NWX) - removed sequence 'SC+NK'
Gravesend (GRV) and Horsham (HRH) - removed sequence 'NK+SC'
Gravesend (GRV) and Lewisham (LEW) - removed sequence 'FB'
Gravesend (GRV) and Lewisham (LEW) - removed sequence 'FL'
Gravesend (GRV) and Lewisham (LEW) - removed sequence 'FN'
Gravesend (GRV) and New Cross (NWX) - removed sequence 'CT'
Gravesend (GRV) and Nunhead (NHD) - removed sequence 'FL'
Gravesend (GRV) and Nunhead (NHD) - removed sequence 'FN'
Gravesend (GRV) and Peckham Rye (PMR) - removed sequence 'FL'
Gravesend (GRV) and Peckham Rye (PMR) - removed sequence 'FN'
Gravesend (GRV) and Slade Green (SGR) - removed sequence 'CT'
Guildford (GLD) and New Cross (NWX) - removed sequence 'PD+SC+NK'
Horsham (HRH) and New Cross (NWX) - removed sequence 'SC+NK'
Kingston (KNG) and New Cross (NWX) - removed sequence 'WX+SC+NK'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and Gravesend (GRV) - removed sequence 'NK'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and Horsham (HRH) - removed sequence 'PD+SC'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and Slade Green (SGR) - removed sequence 'NK'
New Cross (NWX) and Peckham Rye (PMR) - removed sequence 'NK'
New Cross (NWX) and Three Bridges (TBD) - removed sequence 'NK+SC'
Peckham Rye (PMR) and Slade Green (SGR) - removed sequence 'FL'
REDHILL GROUP (G60) and New Cross (NWX) - removed sequence 'SC+NK'
STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and Slade Green (SGR) - removed sequence 'SC+NK'


Easements removed 4 easements removed due to expiry of engineering work diversions.


700554: This positive map easement is to permit journeys between London Paddington - Bristol and South Wales to travel over an engineering diversion route between Greenford, South Ruislip, Banbury and Oxford to Didcot Parkway and then rejoin the normal route onwards over the Great Western Mainline. The easement will be in operation between the 03 and 06 April 2015 and also the 12 April 2015. This easement applies in both directions.


700555: This Fare Route Easement, is to allow travel with tickets normally routed Newbury; Reading or Slough via the diversion Didcot - Oxford - Banbury - High Wycombe to/from London Paddington during engineering works that will close the line between Didcot and Hayes & Harlington. It will be effective 03-06 and the 12 April 2015. The easement applies to the following route codes - 00063; 00411; 00413; 00418; 00462; 00473; 00494; 00801; 00808; 00826. The easement applies in both directions

700556: This Fare Route easement is to allow travel with tickets normally routed Slough via Staines during the engineering works that will close the line between Didcot and Hayes & Harlington. It will be effective 03-06 April and the 12 April 2015. the easement applies to the following route codes - 00411; 00413; 00418; 00801. This easement applies in both directions.

700557: This Fare Route easement will allow travel on tickets routed Newbury; Slough or Reading to travel via Salisbury and Basingstoke during engineering works that will close the line between Didcot and Hayes & Harlington. The easement will be effective 03-06 and 12 April 2015 for route codes 00411; 00413; 00462; 00473; 00494; 00801 and 00826. The easement applies in both directions


Easements changed 1 easement changed to add detail for Journey Planners to identify Crewe as an applicaple location for journeys via Chester to shrewsbury, (text unaltered)


700559: This positive Map easement will operate on Sunday 03 May 2015. Due to engineering works between Crewe and Shrewsbury, services not normally are routed this way will be able to travel via Chester. This easement will apply in both directions


Easement total 632 easement(s) (previously: 636)


Circuitous Route: 257 (previously 257)
Doubleback: 87 (previously 87)
Fare route: 10 (previously 13)
Local: 55 (previously 55)
Manual: 15 (previously 15)
Map: 4 (previously 5)
Routeing Point: 204 (previously 204)

 

[RJ]

Ah sorry I had just assumed. I was travelling back through St Pancakes on the 9th at 23.00 with a ticket for Ebbsfleet and was told that after an incident earlier in the day an e-mail had gone round banning the ticket I was using; I just assumed that this update was the response (altho my ticket wasn't from Gravesend).

Disappointed to hear that Dartford to Ebbsfleet was valid Via London until now - would have saved me a fair few pennies! I need to get myself to a forum ticket course at some point

A few months ago, a cursory look through the yellow pages revealed that Ebbsfleet to virtually every other routing point was valid via London. The only exceptions were a handful of places further into Kent on the High Speed network, such as Ashford and Ramsgate. Ebbsfleet to Gravesend and later Ebbsfleet to Strood were of interest as they were the cheapest of this set of tickets with validity via London, cheaper than Dartford

There are still many ways to save on HS1 travel. I'd suggest acquainting yourself with the fares data ATOC release. Sometimes a quick query before embarking on a journey can save ££s.

 

[kieron]

There were more updates last Friday, and more again yesterday. First, Friday's updates:

New Dataset RJRG0355 published 24/04/2015

A initial review of map sequences used in Greater London has led to the following changes

Map sequences added

LONDON GROUP (G01) and Willesden Junction (WIJ) - added sequence 'EN'
New Cross (NWX) and Wimbledon (WIM) - added sequence 'EL+BU'​

No effect.

A review of permissions from Smethwick Group (G63) has led to the following changes​

Some of the lines in this section are given two or three times, but I haven't included the repeats.

Map Sequences added

Chester (CTR) and SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) - added sequence 'AW+ES+NJ'
Chester (CTR) and SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) - added sequence 'PV+ES+NJ'

Map sequence removed

Chester (CTR) and SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) - removed sequence 'BC'
Chester (CTR) and SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) - removed sequence 'CH+BC'​

No longer mapped via Shotton.

Crewe (CRE) and LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) - added sequence 'CH'​

Now mapped via Chester.
This was a route which was valid anyway as it was within 3 miles of the shortest route to anywhere in the group apart from Lime Street and Edge Hill, but it's nice to have maps to reinforce this.

Crewe (CRE) and Wolverhampton (WVH) - added sequence 'MH+ES'​

Now mapped via Stoke.

LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) and SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) - added sequence 'BV'
LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) and SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) - added sequence 'CH+TV+BJ'
LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) and SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) - added sequence 'CH+TV+NJ'
LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) and SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) - added sequence 'CV+TV+NV'
LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) and SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) - added sequence 'PV+ES+NJ'
LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) and SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) - removed sequence 'CH+BJ'
LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) and SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) - removed sequence 'NO+BM'
LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) and SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) - removed sequence 'NR+BM'​

No longer mapped via Earlestown, Manchester or Warrington.
Now mapped via Nantwich.
Also mapped via Chester and Stoke, Rugeley and Stoke and Rugeley and Runcorn.

LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) and STAFFORD GROUP (G65) - added sequence 'BV'
LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) and STAFFORD GROUP (G65) - added sequence 'CV+MH'
LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) and STAFFORD GROUP (G65) - removed sequence 'CH+BJ'
LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) and STAFFORD GROUP (G65) - removed sequence 'NO+BM'
LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) and STAFFORD GROUP (G65) - removed sequence 'NR+BM'​

No longer mapped via Earlestown, Manchester or Warrington.
There are now mapped routes via Stoke which also go via Chester or Runcorn, where they were all previously via Warrington or Manchester.

SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Hooton (HOO) - added sequence 'NJ+ES+AW'
SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Hooton (HOO) - removed sequence 'BC'
SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Hooton (HOO) - removed sequence 'BM+NO'
SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Hooton (HOO) - removed sequence 'BM+NR'​

No longer mapped via Liverpool.

SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Shotton (SHT) - added sequence 'NJ+ES+AW'
SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Shotton (SHT) - added sequence 'NJ+ES+AW+CH'
SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Shotton (SHT) - removed sequence 'BC'
SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Shotton (SHT) - removed sequence 'BC+CH'
WORCESTER GROUP (G35) and Stoke On Trent (SOT) - added sequence 'WM+MH'
WREXHAM GROUP (G49) and SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) - added sequence 'AW+ES+NJ'
WREXHAM GROUP (G49) and SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) - removed sequence 'BC'​

No effect.

SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Stoke On Trent (SOT) - added sequence 'NJ+ES+MH'
SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Stoke On Trent (SOT) - removed sequence 'TO'
Stoke On Trent (SOT) and Wolverhampton (WVH) - added sequence 'MH+ES'
Stoke On Trent (SOT) and Wolverhampton (WVH) - removed sequence 'TO'​

No longer mapped via Crewe or Rugeley.

SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Swindon (Wilts) (SWI) - added sequence 'BI+MW'
SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Swindon (Wilts) (SWI) - removed sequence 'WM+RB'​

No longer mapped via Coventry and Nuneaton.

WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) and Wolverhampton (WVH) - added sequence 'OC+NJ'
WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) and Wolverhampton (WVH) - added sequence 'TV+NJ'
WILMSLOW GROUP (G69) and Wolverhampton (WVH) - removed sequence 'TO'​

No longer mapped via Macclesfield.

A review of map permissions from Havant to West Midlands, to ensure routes are shown via Basingstoke, has led to the following changes.​

At last, a change summary which almost exactly reflects the change it summarises.

Map sequences added

BIRMINGHAM GROUP (G02) and Havant (HAV) - added sequence 'BB+CW'
Coventry (COV) and Havant (HAV) - added sequence 'SM+XR+CW'
Havant (HAV) and Lichfield Trent Valley (LTV) - added sequence 'BB+TL'
Havant (HAV) and Lichfield Trent Valley (LTV) - added sequence 'CW+BB+TL'
Havant (HAV) and Nuneaton (NUN) - added sequence 'BB+ME'
Havant (HAV) and Nuneaton (NUN) - added sequence 'CW+BB+ME'
Havant (HAV) and Tamworth (TAM) - added sequence 'BB+TL'
Havant (HAV) and Tamworth (TAM) - added sequence 'CW+XR+XB'
Havant (HAV) and Tamworth (TAM) - added sequence 'XR+XB'
STAFFORD GROUP (G65) and Havant (HAV) - added sequence 'BJ+BB'
STAFFORD GROUP (G65) and Havant (HAV) - added sequence 'BJ+BB+CW'
WALSALL GROUP (G59) and Havant (HAV) - added sequence 'ME+BB'
WALSALL GROUP (G59) and Havant (HAV) - added sequence 'ME+BB+CW'

Map sequences removed

Havant (HAV) and Lichfield Trent Valley (LTV) - removed sequence 'RB'
Havant (HAV) and Lichfield Trent Valley (LTV) - removed sequence 'RB+TL'
Havant (HAV) and Tamworth (TAM) - removed sequence 'RB'
SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Havant (HAV) - added sequence 'BI+BB+CW'
SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Havant (HAV) - added sequence 'BI+XS'
SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Havant (HAV) - removed sequence 'WM+RB'
SMETHWICK GROUP (G63) and Havant (HAV) - removed sequence 'WM+XS'
STAFFORD GROUP (G65) and Havant (HAV) - removed sequence 'BV+XS'
WALSALL GROUP (G59) and Havant (HAV) - removed sequence 'RB'​

Now mapped via Portsmouth and Basingstoke.

Havant (HAV) and Rugeley Trent Valley (RGL) - added sequence 'BB+AB'
Havant (HAV) and Rugeley Trent Valley (RGL) - added sequence 'BB+TV'
Havant (HAV) and Rugeley Trent Valley (RGL) - added sequence 'CW+BB+AB'
Havant (HAV) and Rugeley Trent Valley (RGL) - added sequence 'CW+BB+TV'
Havant (HAV) and Rugeley Trent Valley (RGL) - removed sequence 'RB+WM'
Havant (HAV) and Rugeley Trent Valley (RGL) - removed sequence 'XS+WM'
Havant (HAV) and Wolverhampton (WVH) - added sequence 'CW+BB+ME'
Havant (HAV) and Wolverhampton (WVH) - added sequence 'XS+ME'
Havant (HAV) and Wolverhampton (WVH) - removed sequence 'RB+WM'
Havant (HAV) and Wolverhampton (WVH) - removed sequence 'XS+WM'​

Now mapped via Portsmouth and Basingstoke.
No longer mapped via Wokingham and Rugby (via an even less direct route than that suggests).

Easements changed 1 easement(s) changed data to Journey Planners as some are not actively applying the easement for all journeys.

700444: Customers travelling from or via Bromsgrove to Alvechurch and Redditch in posession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" may double back between Barnt Green and Birmingham New Street. This easement applies in both directions.​

The text hasn't changed at all.

Meanwhile, yesterday, the following changes were made:

New Dataset RJRG0356 published 29/04/2015

Map sequence removed as it is no longer needed for engineering route diversions.

Didcot Parkway (DID) and LONDON GROUP (G01) - removed sequence 'SM+GC'​

Removes routes via Banbury and High Wycombe added on 20/2.

Easements added

700571: This Positive Doubleback easement will allow Journey Planners to show itineraries between Chester/Hooton and Sandhills (a station within the G18 Liverpool Routeing Group), where the journey from the Origin station travels through Moorfields to Liverpool Central and then doublebacks through Moorfields on the second leg of the journey to the Destination station. This easement applies in both directions.​

This lets you double back through Moorfields if travelling between Chester and Sandhills. As this will almost always take longer, I suppose this is to let passengers board a train when it's less crowded.

I suppose the "applies in both directions" is just reflex, though. I can't work out how someone going to Chester from Sandhills would double back through Moorfields, much less why.

700572: During engineering works from 23 May 2015 to 25 May 2015, customers travelling from the Oxford area Chippenham, Bath Spa and beyond with tickets routed 00810 Not Via Reading may travel via Reading. This easement applies in both directions.

700573: During engineering work on 10 May 2015 tickets on Fare Routes 00951 and 00953 RailAir Reading will be valid on bus replacement services that do not call at Reading Station, when services travel via Reading bus as a location in Journey Planners.

700574: During engineering works 23 to 25 May 2015 passengers travelling from Gloucester and Cheltenham to London to use tickets on Fare Routes 00807 and 00808 Via Stroud can travel via Bristol Temple Meads and Newbury. This easement applies in both directions​

More engineering works easements.