Nearly a dispute at Lancaster

[neilmc]

Today (Saturday) my wife had a meeting in Lancaster, and as it was in the city centre and Lancaster is a dreadful place to park, she went by train from Penrith. I looked up the fare for her and realised there were two fares, an off-peak return for any train and a similar slightly cheaper ticket which was Transpennine only. As the TP service is more or less hourly I suggested she bought the TP-only ticket, saying that on no account should she catch a Virgin train if one arrived first. This went to plan at Penrith where the ticket seller was on the ball and ascertained she wasn't planning to catch any Virgin trains.

Sure enough, on the return journey all trains were running a few minutes late and the northbound Virgin pulled into Lancaster just as she emerged on to the platform, with the TP train 5-10 minutes behind. The "helpful" Virgin staff on the platform assured her that the Virgin train stopped at Penrith and she should catch it, at which point she declined, explaining that her ticket was TP-only. No problem in the end.

The thing is, if I hadn't worked all this out and the Penrith seller not reinforced it, she could easily have been escorted on to the Virgin train, having bought the cheapest displayed ticket from the machine or internet, and duly been charged another Anytime single from the Virgin conductor, at which point the "man on the platform told me to get on" would probably have carried no weight at all, if even believed.

This kind of thing must happen on a daily basis on this line. Obviously TP are happy, since they get all of the revenue for a TP-only ticket, and Virgin probably don't mind either since they can sell a number of full-fare anytime tickets to the unwary to make up the revenue loss. I really think these single-operator tickets should not be permitted to be sold, yes we saved around £3 but it could easily have cost several times the hoped-for saving.

 

[robbeech]

I am someone who looks very carefully at the actions of lots of TOCs and I’m the first to smell a rat when something looks to be done deliberately. However in this case I’m really not so sure.
I can’t argue that the outcome could have been poor and a new ticket could have been sold (there’s some argument as to whether she would be sold an anytime or an off peak) but I’m not convinced Platform staff are deliberately ushering people onto their trains to make money.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Lancaster is my local "big" station. It is well run and staffed and bad service there seems an exception. Of course if a Virgin employee tells you your ticket will be accepted on a Virgin train...

 

[najaB]

I really think these single-operator tickets should not be permitted to be sold, yes we saved around £3 but it could easily have cost several times the hoped-for saving.

As I read it you're arguing for the removal of cheaper fares. Don't expect much agreement here!

 

[Joe Paxton]

I can't see that anyone did anything wrong. I don't really get the OP's complaint.

 

[yorkie]

It should be possible to excess away a TOC restriction; it's arguably no different to exceessing a "via High Wycombe" fare for use on Virgin via Rugby.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Without knowing exactly what was said by th OP's wife and the platform staff at Lancaster it's impossible to say if the platform staff did their job correctly. There's a difference between

Q "Does this train stop at Penrith?" , A "Yes it does"
and
Q "Can I catch this train to Penrith?", A "That depends. What ticket fo you have?"

For the sake of saving a small amount I'm not in favour of TOC specific fares being allowed in situations like this. Between Lancaster and Penrith, Virgin and TPE offer similar frequencies, journey times and levels of comfort. TOC specific tickets just add confusion. Here they have been introduced by TPE for revenue maximisation purposes, under the guise of offering the passenger a good deal. If people want to save money by restricting themselves, then that's what Advace tickets are for.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It should be possible to excess away a TOC restriction; it's arguably no different to exceessing a "via High Wycombe" fare for use on Virgin via Rugby.

I thought this was a distinctly grey area?

 

[najaB]

Here they have been introduced by TPE for revenue maximisation purposes...

Alternate view: they are trying to tempt people off the London services to make room for passengers heading to/from points further South.

 

[neilmc]

I'm not suggesting that the Lancaster platform staff had any devious intent, in my experience rail staff in this part of the world are usually friendly and accommodating, but he clearly hadn't thought that she might have had a TP-only ticket and she could have been left boarding a train without any valid ticket. I'm just highlighting an area of confusion (yet another!) for inexperienced rail travellers which could leave them badly out of pocket.

 

[gray1404]

My understanding is that it is not possible to excess from a TOC specific ticket to a non TOC (or indeed alternative TOC) specific ticket.

I am informed though that you can excess into a TOC restriction though. E.g. From Off Peak Any Permitted to an Anytime TOC specific ticket.

 

[yorkie]

I thought this was a distinctly grey area?

Some people will do it, but it's not currently supposed to be done under the existing rules.

I see no good reason for the rules to bar it, given that it's allowed for route restricted tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It should be possible to excess away a TOC restriction; it's arguably no different to exceessing a "via High Wycombe" fare for use on Virgin via Rugby.

The easiest thing would be to allow the immediate fee-free refund (i.e. trade-in) of a given ticket if it is replaced, on the spot, with another ticket valid both for what you have done so far and for what you intend to do.

This would be much simpler than faffing with excesses and would offer the customer more options except in one area - it would require single-fare pricing to work.

Funnily enough, like many TOCs London Midland were so against issuing zero fare excesses I have had them do exactly that more than once even though I had already travelled on the ticket they were refunding (and used it in barriers).

 

[Ianigsy]

I suspect it's one of those things that fall into the "too much trouble" category given the back office adjustments that would be needed to reallocate money.

You would potentially be taking a fare which had gone entirely to one TOC and clawing some of it back to give to the other operators on the route, while also giving every TOC on the route a share of the excess. And if the original ticket had been sold some months previously, also potentially the issue of bank interest which the original TOC shouldn't have earned.

 

[sheff1]

I really think these single-operator tickets should not be permitted to be sold

If you don't think they should be sold then don't buy one.

Alternate view: they are trying to tempt people off the London services to make room for passengers heading to/from points further South.

In my experience, the TPE trains are busier than the London trains on that section. TPE do seem to have a general policy of encouraging people to use already busy (or even overcrowded) trains by offering cheaper fares than their rivals.

 

[snail]

Alternate view: they are trying to tempt people off the London services to make room for passengers heading to/from points further South.

No, because between Lancaster and Preston there is a TPE-only fare (£5.90 off peak), a VT-only fare (£6.80) and the Any Permitted fare at £7.90. If I'm going that way I will normally choose the VT fare as there are two trains an hour. If I do get the TPE I'll pay the extra £1 to give me the choice rather than faff around trying to get the booking office to change the ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my experience, the TPE trains are busier than the London trains on that section. TPE do seem to have a general policy of encouraging people to use already busy (or even overcrowded) trains by offering cheaper fares than their rivals.

Indeed they do, and it's rather a disgrace. Cheapo price-dumped fares should not be sold on trains where all seats would be taken at the regular interavailable fare. See also the WMT (nee LM) Trent Valley services until they go 8-car.

 

[gray1404]

At least TPE offer seat reservations, unlike WMT. So if you are on an advance with TPE or know you'll be using a busy service with walk up ticket you have the option of reserving a seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least TPE offer seat reservations, unlike WMT. So if you are on an advance with TPE or know you'll be using a busy service with walk up ticket you have the option of reserving a seat.

True.

 

[gray1404]

I really wish WMT would start offering seat reservations on their Trent Valley services. It is the one route they operate that is in need of seat reservations most. I see at the Euston end at least the unit sits in the platform short of an hour before it's next service so there is time to put the reservations onto the seats, not sure about the Crewe end how quick the turnaround time is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really wish WMT would start offering seat reservations on their Trent Valley services. It is the one route they operate that is in need of seat reservations most. I see at the Euston end at least the unit sits in the platform short of an hour before it's next service

Are you sure it does? It certainly doesn't in the peaks. 20-30 mins at Crewe off the top of my head I think.

 

[Hadders]

It's best that they don't offer reservations, in my opinion. For starters making the trains reservable would cause difficulties with them being used as an appropriate connecting service into 'TOC & Connections' Advance tickets.

 

[Starmill]

I really think these single-operator tickets should not be permitted to be sold, yes we saved around £3 but it could easily have cost several times the hoped-for saving.

There is a huge spectrum with these types of 'TOC Only' products.

I will give some quick examples. All of these are based on the cheapest return ticket. The OP's journey is highlighted in blue.

Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton
Any Permitted: £10.20
Arriva Trains Wales only: £10.10
Cheaper ticket restricted to around half of the trains on this route
A saving of £0.10 or 0.98%

Aberdeen to Edinburgh
Any Permitted: £53.50
CrossCountry Only: £52
Cheaper ticket restricted to just one train in one direction and two in the other on this route
A saving of £1.30 or 2.43%

Preston to Manchester
Any Permitted: £12.70
TransPennine Only: £11
Cheaper ticket restricted to around one quarter of the trains on this route
A saving of £1.70 or 13.39%

Penrith to Lancaster
Any Permitted: £17.80
TransPennine Only: £14.90
Cheaper ticket restricted to around half of the trains on this route
A saving of £2.90 or 16.2%

Fareham to Cosham
Any Permitted: £4.60
Southern Only: £3.70
Cheaper ticket restricted to around one third of trains on this rotue
A saving of £0.90 or 19.57%

Manchester to Stoke-on-Trent
Any Permitted: £16.90
Virgin Trains Only: £12.50
Cheaper ticket restricted to two fifths of trains on this route
A saving of £4.40 or 26%

York to Newcastle
Any Permitted: £40.90
TransPennine Express Only £26.50
Cheaper ticket restricted to around one third of services on this route
A saving of £14.40 or 30.2%

Thirsk to York
Any Permitted £12.70
Grand Central Only: £5.80
Cheaper ticket restricted to just five daily services
A saving of £6.90 or 54.33%

There are many cases where a 'TOC ONLY' ticket costs more than an Any Permitted one, such as a First Class single from Dewsbury to Huddersfield, which is £7.80 Any Permitted and £8.20 for TransPennine Only, which I have ignored here as I would really hope these are never sold! As you can see your ticket is by no means the worst value out there. The sample is not very representative though because these are only going by the ones I know about. If someone would like to do a quantitative analysis of the fares data to expose the best value operators and worst culprits for ripping people off then be my guest.

The Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton example is so extreme that I have to wonder if it deserves its own thread! In my view, a good way to regulate this would be to permit dedicated fares but only if they offer a certain percentage saving. Where that line is to be drawn is anyone's guess.

I would say that most of us will agree that the Grand Central only fare from Thirsk to York should be allowed to exist, saving the customer almost 55%. I would say that most of us will also agree that the Arriva Trains Wales only fare from Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton should not be allowed to exist, saving the customer less than 1%. But then, there is everything in between.

 

[Starmill]

My understanding is that it is not possible to excess from a TOC specific ticket to a non TOC (or indeed alternative TOC) specific ticket.

Nearly. It's not possible to excess a ticket in a way that removes the original 'TOC Only' restriction.

For example, let's say you buy an Arriva Trains Wales only Off Peak Day Single from Manchester to Wilmslow for travel on the 1430 on a weekday. This is £5.20. Your plans change and you arrive at the station for the 1730 service instead, but your ticket is not valid due to the AW time restrictions. You go to the ticket office and ask if you can use your ticket on that train. Instead of charging you for a whole new ticket you are just charged the £0.80 excess up to the Any Permitted Anytime Day Single. You have therefore paid the same price for your ticket as if you had just bought the £6 Any Permitted Anytime Day Single in the first place, but now your ticket is only valid on ATW.

This seems totally counter-intuitive that you have paid the same for the same ticket but you have fewer rights. This is one of the many reasons it's my view that the rules should be changed to prevent the train companies from charging Penalty Fares or new full fares under these circumstances and only allow them to charge excess fares, in line with geographic route restrictions. This would be a significant simplification for all.

However, it is preferable at least that this sort of excess is issued rather than having someone buy a new ticket.

 

[Starmill]

It's best that they don't offer reservations, in my opinion. For starters making the trains reservable would cause difficulties with them being used as an appropriate connecting service into 'TOC & Connections' Advance tickets.

This problem exists anyway, as they offer 'counted place' reservations.

 

[Starmill]

I suspect it's one of those things that fall into the "too much trouble" category given the back office adjustments that would be needed to reallocate money.

This is a red herring. It is permitted to excess a 'via High Wycombe' ticket to an Any Permitted one even though this does not reallocate the money from the original ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

It should be possible to excess away a TOC restriction; it's arguably no different to exceessing a "via High Wycombe" fare for use on Virgin via Rugby.

No "arguably" about it Yorkie - route excesses don't change the original ORCATS allocation of the underlying ticket!

Therefore in your example Virgin end up getting no revenue from the bulk of the ticket, only from the excess. The Route HW ticket I am certain gives £0 to Virgin, and when someone excesses that to an Any Permitted it doesn't change the fact Chiltern will gain nearly all the revenue on the underlying ticket.

There's no reason why TOC-specific excesses shouldn't be possible and it's wrong that they're not offered.

 

[Wallsendmag]

You cannot excess away a TOC specific route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You cannot excess away a TOC specific route.

Officially. However anecdotally some ticket offices may still do it.

 

[yorkie]

You cannot excess away a TOC specific route.

It is true that officially this cannot be done, but it is also true that there is no compelling reason why that rule exists, as per AlterEgo's post above.