need help, will i be taken to court?

[bloomer]

Hi
I travel to work on the northern rail line from rochdale to manchester victoria. I usually purchase a weekly season ticket, however this week I was only in for 3 days so purchased my ticket daily. In the morning as I arrived at the train station there was a queue for at the ticket office and there was only 1 available person. I sometimes use the self service machine but today it was not accepting card payments in the morning, the train had arrived and I did not want to get late for work as I had an important meeting to attend. I boarded the train knowing I could buy a ticket at the end. There are two exits when the train arrives, one if you have a ticket and one if you wish to buy one. I queued up to purchase a ticket and when I got my card out and asked for a return from Rochdale I was pulled to aside.

I explained why I had not purchased a ticket and asked what would have happened if I asked for a ticket from the two stops after and the woman replied that nothing would have happened. I understand I should have a ticket before I board the train however this line is consistently late however northern rail are never penalised, yet because I did not want to get late for work and was honest and queued up for a ticket I am now being penalised.

I was told I should expect a letter asking for an explanation and for the payment even though I did not evade making the payment and genuinely queued up for one knowing that people have done his on a daily basis from Rochdale.

My question is what can I expect, will I be taken to court or can I expect an out of courts settlement??

 

[bb21]

I explained why I had not purchased a ticket and asked what would have happened if I asked for a ticket from the two stops after and the woman replied that nothing would have happened.

If you get caught, you will likely be looking at an easy Regulation of Railways Act conviction which carries a criminal record as the intention to avoid paying the correct fare is clear.

I seriously recommend you do not ask an RPI this sort of question.

I understand I should have a ticket before I board the train however this line is consistently late however northern rail are never penalised, yet because I did not want to get late for work and was honest and queued up for a ticket I am now being penalised.

I don't see how this is relevant. You might feel aggrieved, however it is your responsibility to arrive at the station with sufficient time to purchase a ticket. From your account of things, this does not seem to be the case.

Northern have performance targets and if they miss them, they will suffer financial penalties.

I was told I should expect a letter asking for an explanation and for the payment even though I did not evade making the payment and genuinely queued up for one knowing that people have done his on a daily basis from Rochdale.
My question is what can I expect, will I be taken to court or can I expect an out of courts settlement??

Northern will decide how to proceed once they have your reply. They can take you to court, if they think they have enough evidence. They might also accept an out-of-court settlement although that's not guarantee.

You have broken the Railway Byelaws as you failed to present a valid ticket when requested, despite having had an opportunity to pay at your origin station.

 

[bloomer]

thanks for your reply, i understand I am required to purchase a ticket before, however does my honesty not count for anything, I have just graduated from university and have a promising career ahead of me, losing it due to not being able to pay for a train ticket would be very harsh indeed.
What sort of reply should I write in my letter, should I be honest, explain the situation exactly and that it was a one off occurrence and will never happen again?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
and the fair that I would have paid would be the same at both ends, £7.20 so I was not trying to get a cheaper fare or avoiding paying.

 

[telstarbox]

Wait until the letter from Northern arrives.

Members on this forum will be happy to proof-read your letter before you send it off to try to get the best outcome possible for you.

 

[185]

Reading this, I don't actually see what's immediately wrong. Heavy rail in Manchester has no compulsory ticketing scheme, and the passenger was purchasing a ticket at a time of day when the guard may not have been able to go through. The booking office at Rochdale does frequently get swamped, and on a number of occasions the comms line for credit card authorisations has been down, so my wonder is what would TfGM make of this. Is Northern's argument solely: passenger did not purchase a ticket at Rochdale.

 

[bloomer]

well yes that is exactly what they are saying. Upon leaving the trian at Manchester Victoria there are always two exits one to leave as normal and the second to purchase a ticket if you have none. I understand I did not purchase the ticket but this was because the self service machine did not accept card payments today and the queue for the ticket office would mean I would miss my train, there was only one person at the ticket office also.
However I did not attempt to defraud them as I queued up when I left the train to purchase a ticket before I could exit the barrier however I was pulled to aside where I was told they would not accept my payment and I would receive a letter explaining why I did not purchase the ticket and I would then have to pay for the fare.

I feel this is totally ridiculous as I explained my reasons for not having a ticket at rochdale and was ready to make the full payment of £7.20. I could have stated I got on at a later station to pay less however I was honest and there was no way the fare price would have been different to what it would have been in rochdale.

 

[yorkie]

However I did not attempt to defraud them ...

Agreed.

I do not think there is any chance of a successful prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act, which requires intent to avoid payment (but to answer your question about giving a false origin, Northern do prosecute people under this act who state they started at a false destination - Northern have means to detect this at stations they choose randomly).

What Northern are likely to do is issue with either a "warning" or one of their £80 penalty notices (which the DfT has not approved and is investigating. It appears to be a Penalty Fare through the backdoor, without any legislation to support it) and only if you did not pay such a notice would they prosecute you. If they do prosecute, they can realistically only go for a Byelaw offence, which is not recordable and does not require intent. It is 'strict liability'.

I am opposed to this scheme by Northern and I share the concerns of 185 above. DfT response to an FOI request can be found here. There are also some threads on this forum where these £80 notices have been discussed.

There are people at ATOC who I don't think like such tactics, but what can they do?

The incompetent Passenger Focus are, as ever, silent about this issue (they only go on about pointless, unrealistic aims such as how it shouldn't be cheaper to "split" and other such nonsense while ignoring the REAL issues and threats to passengers rights). You could try contacting them, but I really don't think they will be any more use than a chocolate fire-guard.

Northern's view is basically that they can make you queue for a very long time and if you don't want to queue you risk a £80 notice. It would not be acceptable in any other industry, and not many industries have a way of prosecuting people who actually did intend to pay, but the rail industry is unique, and we are where we are, with ludicrous laws and poor customer service considered to be acceptable.

I will be happy to proof read any letter you wish to send to them in response to their letter, when it arrives.

 

[bb21]

If the queue at the ticket office was excessive on the day, then you might have a point to complain to Northern (nevertheless that does not change your obligation to obtain a ticket before travel should facilities exist before boarding), and maybe for future reference, ask them to clarify how long you should wait at the ticket office before being allowed to board without a ticket. We will be very interested to hear what their responses are. How long did you wait at the ticket office before the train arrived on the day of the incident? Did you by any chance take a photo of the queue at the ticket office on the day on your phone?

No one is accusing you of defrauding the railway, however the law is not really on our side if Northern choose to pursue the matter through the court system. We have confirmation from ATOC that the Railway Byelaws, etc, are not meant to be used as a catch-all to penalise innocent passengers, however I don't think there is much they can do if member organisations decide to deploy them in such a manner, and Northern certainly seem to be dealing with ticketless travel in a very heavy-handed manner recently.

 

[33011]

Do the Guards carry ticket machines? If so it is your resposibility to find him not the other way around. If you just sat down and waited for him/her to come through the train then you have not done all you could to purchase a ticket in their view.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Do the Guards carry ticket machines? If so it is your resposibility to find him not the other way around. If you just sat down and waited for him/her to come through the train then you have not done all you could to purchase a ticket in their view.

That's actually a myth

 

[bb21]

Do the Guards carry ticket machines? If so it is your resposibility to find him not the other way around.

There is no such obligation. Indeed in some areas this is frowned upon by regular passengers.

 

[34D]

There is no such obligation. Indeed in some areas this is frowned upon by regular passengers.

Such as where?

 

[yorkie]

Such as where?

Lines with many unstaffed stations, particularly at busy times when heading to a station with large queues at the destination. A good example of this (that has been cited in several threads already by regular users of the line) is the Severn Beach Line into Bristol Temple Meads.

 

[33011]

There is no such obligation. Indeed in some areas this is frowned upon by regular passengers.

You are correct but I have heard RPI's ask why didn't you see the guard? on many occasions. The point I was trying to make was that if guards do carry ticket machines and he had approached the guard and asked for a ticket before boarding the train maybe he would not be in this situation. As quoted already he should've had a valid before boarding.I should've worded it better I'm not awake yet. Sorry

 

[island]

It is your responsibility to either arrive in good time to purchase a ticket, or to purchase a ticket in advance (and collect it in advance or allow enough time for collection). Long queues do not absolve you from this responsibility. You have by all appearances committed a criminal offence under the Railway Bye-Laws. (But this is not recordable, and I don't think you have committed a recordable offence under the Regulation of Railways Act.)

As yorkie says, I suspect you may get issued with a Failure to Pay warning or invited to pay an £80 charge plus the fare avoided in order for the matter to be kept out of court. You will need to wait to see what Northern say when they write to you.

 

[talltim]

I think what is considered "good time" is the crux of this one. How long should you allow to queue for a ticket?
As an aside to this, is the length of time you should allow for queuing related to the length of your journey. I have certainly seen queues a Sheffield station on Friday afternoons that would be longer than my 17ish minute journey to Chesterfield and there's far quicker journies available

 

[yorkie]

I think what is considered "good time" is the crux of this one. How long should you allow to queue for a ticket?

That's a good question and I encourage anyone who has issues with queuing times to ask the operator of their local station(s) that question.

York station is very good for this, with plenty of machines (queues very rare) and they usually have enough staff on duty to ensure there are no long queues to buy tickets (and they are flexible about staff switching from serving customers for travel in advance to travel today and vice versa, to suit demand).

Sheffield station is appalling, as are many Northern stations and the TOCs need to be asked some carefully worded questions, and if the answers are insufficient, Passenger Focus and MPs need to be informed and involved.

 

[telstarbox]

Do the Guards carry ticket machines? If so it is your resposibility to find him not the other way around. If you just sat down and waited for him/her to come through the train then you have not done all you could to purchase a ticket in their view.

Unless the guard walks through the train past the passenger, how is the passenger supposed to know where to find the guard? The guard could be in the rear cab, in a different unit, or there could be no guard at all in Driver Only Operation (DOO) areas.

 

[sheff1]

Do the Guards carry ticket machines? If so it is your resposibility to find him not the other way around.

Not this again.
Pity there is not a way to instantly zap such nonsense (which appears on this sort of thread with monotonous regularity) the moment it appears.

 

[island]

I don't think we have ever reached a satisfactory and agreed conclusion on the matter, in fairness.

 

[sheff1]

Indeed and, in my view, that means such a 'responsibility' should not be bluntly stated as fact in response to people coming on here seeking advice.

Equally, there is no need to revisit the previous discussions on every new thread. No need to mention the matter at all, in fact, unless the OP specifically asks about it.

 

[CNash]

Unless the guard walks through the train past the passenger, how is the passenger supposed to know where to find the guard? The guard could be in the rear cab, in a different unit, or there could be no guard at all in Driver Only Operation (DOO) areas.

Not sure about other TOCs, but SWT guards mention their present location when they make their general announcement at the start of the service and at busy stops like Clapham Junction - something like "you can find me to the rear of this 8-coach train, or on the platform at stations".

 

[33011]

Not this again.
Pity there is not a way to instantly zap such nonsense (which appears on this sort of thread with monotonous regularity) the moment it appears.

Half asleep when i wrote that.Explained what i meant further down the thread
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unless the guard walks through the train past the passenger, how is the passenger supposed to know where to find the guard? The guard could be in the rear cab, in a different unit, or there could be no guard at all in Driver Only Operation (DOO) areas.

How about looking down the train before Boarding? Bloomer does the journey regularly so should know if guards carry machines or not

 

[Ferret]

I don't think we have ever reached a satisfactory and agreed conclusion on the matter, in fairness.

In fairness, I've reached a satisfactory conclusion in my own mind. Given that it's often impractical to go and find a Guard, why would there be such a requirement?!

 

[LexyBoy]

In fairness, I've reached a satisfactory conclusion in my own mind. Given that it's often impractical to go and find a Guard, why would there be such a requirement?!

Indeed it can be difficult, as I found trying to find the guard on a Chiltern train all the way from Bicester to London... (in the days when I was interested in the railway but before spending far too much time here).

 

[island]

In fairness, I've reached a satisfactory conclusion in my own mind. Given that it's often impractical to go and find a Guard, why would there be such a requirement?!

I agree with your logic, but there is that court case which stated that someone not seeking out a guard could show intent to avoid the fare...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . , but there is that court case which stated that someone not seeking out a guard could show intent to avoid the fare...

Please elaborate, which case?, and how does the "could show intent" assist us?

 

[island]

I can't remember, sadly. It was posted on this board some time ago.

 

[Ferret]

Please elaborate, which case?, and how does the "could show intent" assist us?

To be clear, in no way do I agree with this thinking, BUT I am aware that RPIs will ask in interviews under caution something along the lines of 'did you seek out the guard to inform them that you needed to buy a ticket'.

Well, personal opinion is that you shouldn't need to on my trains, because they are long distance with plenty of time between stops for me to get through. If you're sat with card or money ready to pay when I walk through saying 'tickets from Sheffield please', then you've fulfilled your obligations. Of course, other opinions are available........

 

[Realfish]

It is your responsibility to either arrive in good time to purchase a ticket, or to purchase a ticket in advance (and collect it in advance or allow enough time for collection). Long queues do not absolve you from this responsibility. QUOTE]

In principle yes, but what is reasonable?

This is what Northern say: When purchasing a rail ticket for immediate travel, you will not have to wait more than five minutes in busy periods and three minutes at all other times
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do the Guards carry ticket machines? If so it is your resposibility to find him not the other way around. If you just sat down and waited for him/her to come through the train then you have not done all you could to purchase a ticket in their view.

The NRCoC say that passengers must keep their belongings and luggage with them at all times. Are you saying that it is reasonable for someone to cart all of their luggage around a crowded train trying to find a TM?


I've been taking an interest in this and similar threads over the past few weeks and have to say that notwithstanding a TOCs right to deal, robustly, with fare evasion, there is something particularly worrying about the way Northern are going about this in Manchester. This seems to be another example, if we take it at face value of people trying to juggle their busy lives around an operator whose failures presents them with unreasonable dilemas (do I queue or miss the train / get to work late??) and then 'pull them aside' when they try to do the right thing at their destination. Punish the wrongdoers by all means, severely if necessary, but, if we are to believe this scenario not people like this young man.

I think that Northern have some explaining to do. Not only in justifying their quasi PF scheme, but in their operational practices.