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Negative easement 700948: mustn't go via Oxford

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Nottingham59

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So the whole problem has arisen because Paddington is listed somewhere as a legitimate London terminal for journeys from Aylesbury, but the shortest route for that journey is now via Oxford? Have I got it right?

And if that's the case, why didn't they just remove Paddington from whatever list it was?
 
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Watershed

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So the whole problem has arisen because Paddington is listed somewhere as a legitimate London terminal for journeys from Aylesbury, but the shortest route for that journey is now via Oxford? Have I got it right?
It's unclear if this is the reason why Trainline are offering these itineraries, but it's one possible explanation.

To clarify - the only "list of legitimate London Terminals" is the London Terminals data feed, which is purely intended for journey planners and is not something directed to passengers (it's an XML file).

And if that's the case, why didn't they just remove Paddington from whatever list it was?
Because Paddington is a valid London Terminal for Aylesbury and historically always has been.

But this simplistic approach is probably what will end up happening. It's easier to "remove" validity than to properly fix the system.
 

JB_B

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...

To clarify - the only "list of legitimate London Terminals" is the London Terminals data feed, which is purely intended for journey planners and is not something directed to passengers (it's an XML file).
...


The London Terminals Mapping (LTM) data feed doesn't (and shouldn't) form any part of the process of establishing permitted routes ( that applies equally to both the public-facing routeing guide sphere and the eNRG data/journey-planner sphere ).

My understanding is that the LTM feed is meant to be a downstream output which enumerates by route code the London terminals which can be reached by permitted routes from all non-London origins and it's only used for ancillary purposes - e.g. showing applicable London terminals on the NRE season ticket finder.

Historically, the LTM feed has been hopelessly inaccurate (I haven't checked recently.) If it had formed part of the process that journey planners use to establish permitted routes then many straightforward journeys would have been impossible.
 
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alistairlees

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The London Terminals Mapping (LTM) data feed doesn't (and shouldn't) form any part of the process of establishing permitted routes ( that applies equally to both the public-facing routeing guide sphere and the eNRG data/journey-planner sphere ).

My understanding is that the LTM feed is meant to be a downstream output which enumerates by route code the permitted routes to London terminals from all non-London origins and it's only used for ancillary purposes - e.g. showing applicable London terminals on the NRE season ticket finder.

Historically, the LTM feed has been hopelessly inaccurate (I haven't checked recently.) If had formed part of the process that journey planners use to establish permitted routes then many straightforward journeys would have been impossible.
Correct. It is definitely not be used as an input to determine anything! It also covers other group locations, not just London, now, and has for some time.
 

Nicholas43

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So the whole problem has arisen because Paddington is listed somewhere as a legitimate London terminal for journeys from Aylesbury, but the shortest route for that journey is now via Oxford? Have I got it right?
No, the problem has arisen because the routing guide has become so complicated that only one person (a well-respected forum member) understands it.
Either there are some public trains (as opposed to the Central Line) South Ruislip <> Greenford, or there aren't. If there are, then Princes Risborough to Paddington should remain valid on a London Terminals ticket, with Greenford as the only valid route. That should not require any squeezement.
If there aren't, and won't be in the foreseeable future, then Paddington should be delisted for this flow.
There is, I think, a wider issue. A ticket from Aylesbury (and other places, actually) to Paddington routed via Oxford, issued at the same price as a ticket to Marylebone, has plainly been issued by mistake. I don't know how many such tickets have been sold. But I think that all, or almost all, purchasers of such a ticket would know that it was a mistake. The law on contracts entered into by mistake is complicated, but they can be void. There is an entertaining leading case when a salvage tug turned out to be lots further away from a stricken vessel than the parties believed; the Court of Appeal upheld the contract, because the tug could have got where it was wanted, just a lot later than expected.
 

Haywain

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Well in that case, going via Oxford is now permitted by the shortest route rule. As I understand it, that trumps any easements, positive or negative.
VBut it isn't the shortest route, it's just that trains on the shortest route have been cancelled.
 

MarlowDonkey

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But it isn't the shortest route, it's just that trains on the shortest route have been cancelled.
There's also a "short" route with regular services using the Central Line from South or West Ruislip to Greenford and then the local GWR shuttle to West Ealing for the TflL service to Paddington. An Aylesbury to London Zone 6 Travelcard would be valid, but London terminals?
 

JB_B

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VBut it isn't the shortest route, it's just that trains on the shortest route have been cancelled.
Out of interest, which route do you think is shortest given the current data?
 

JB_B

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Aylesbury - Princes Risborough - Greenford - West Ealing - Paddington.

That would certainly make sense. However, the only distances specified in the data for Greenford are to South Greenford and v.v. As mentioned upthread there's longer no any direct (or shortish) link from Paddington to the Chiltern line.

[updated 26 June]

Yesterday evening a new link was added to the distance data: West Ruislip to West Ealing and v.v. - 6.0 miles.

So the shortest route Aylesbury-Paddington is now Aylesbury - Princes Risborough - West Ruislip - West Ealing Paddington.

This should mean that various anomalies noted up-thread will disappear. ( Along with several other unexpectedly good value tickets into Paddington from the Chiltern and into Marylebone from various GW origins. )
 
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