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Network Rail appoints new boss Mark Carne

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tbtc

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And I will reiterate the point that I made originally.

And I stick by what I said above.

I agree that there was fare avoidance under BR when wage inequality within the UK was a lot less than it is now - My point is one about British society as a whole (although your agenda against BR is noted).

When the upper echelons are seen to be working the system, the rest will try as well. It may offend your sense of propriety tbtc, but that is how it happens. Fare dodgers are ready to cheat, Chief executives are happy to cheat and squirrel everything away abroad.

Fare dodgers cheat because they think they can get away with it and don't feel any moral duty to pay.

If you want to believe that they are doing so as part of some political crusade against corporate greed then fair enough, just like it suited some people to claim that the rioters a couple of years ago were looting electrical retailers because they actually cared about Mark Duggan. That's a whole other thread though.

To keep this one on topic, do you honestly believe that the salary for the head of NR has any bearing upon fare evasion?
 
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yorksrob

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Fare dodgers cheat because they think they can get away with it and don't feel any moral duty to pay.

If you want to believe that they are doing so as part of some political crusade against corporate greed then fair enough, just like it suited some people to claim that the rioters a couple of years ago were looting electrical retailers because they actually cared about Mark Duggan. That's a whole other thread though.

To keep this one on topic, do you honestly believe that the salary for the head of NR has any bearing upon fare evasion?

Yes, but the point is why do fare dodgers not feel any moral duty to pay ?

It is an observable phenomenum that many of our European partners who have more of a grip on income inequality tend to do better in terms of crime and social cohesion than more laissez faire economies such as Britain and the US.

It's interesting that you should mention the riots. If ever there was a case of disorder driven by the pressure to appear rich and wealthy and therefore "successful" through material gain then that was it.

To answer your question, I don't believe this is specifically about the boss of NR in particular, but yes - I do believe that excessively high pay, along with other phenomena such as tax avoidance, contribute to a society where more people will feel that it is ok to commit petty crime if they can get away with it.
 

jon0844

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Fare evaders will always take advantage of a situation, and if there's an easy way to justify it by blaming someone else they will.

It's not a recent thing either. People have fare evaded forever, just as people gladly inflate insurance claims and all sorts of things that didn't happen simply as salaries (or company profits) went up.
 

Muzer

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Yes, but the point is why do fare dodgers not feel any moral duty to pay ?

It is an observable phenomenum that many of our European partners who have more of a grip on income inequality tend to do better in terms of crime and social cohesion than more laissez faire economies such as Britain and the US.

It's interesting that you should mention the riots. If ever there was a case of disorder driven by the pressure to appear rich and wealthy and therefore "successful" through material gain then that was it.

To answer your question, I don't believe this is specifically about the boss of NR in particular, but yes - I do believe that excessively high pay, along with other phenomena such as tax avoidance, contribute to a society where more people will feel that it is ok to commit petty crime if they can get away with it.
No, it's just people wanted to nick things and realised they could possibly get away with it because of how slow the police were to effectively respond.
 

Clip

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Actual levels of successful crime are dependant on many factors, including how you police the system and how you deter criminal activity, therefore it would be difficult to prove a direct causal link.

That said, it seems logical to me that excessive pay will engender a sense of entitlement as well as a sense of grievance that will prompt more people to try and play the system.

And it may surprise you to learn that some fare evaders are actually on very good salarys compared to the UK average and activley engage in long term fare evasion until they are caught, so I am unsure that the wage equality arguement sticks so well. Civil servants, Lawyers, even a director of a large(not huge but large enough) company are just certain ones that come to my mind who have been caught out. Whilst granted some may not earn 6 figure salaries they are close to it and sitll they want to dodge the correct fare.


What is endemic, as has been noted by jonmorris is that some people will do so because they can. And thats all. I really doubt any fare dodger will do so because someone is on a massive salary, thats like saying people pirate films/music because the labels make stacks of money - they dont, they do it because they can. And will.
 

DarloRich

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Some of the responses on this thread are comedy gold! Some are bordering on the communist whilst others are simply ludicrous!

Then raise the scarlet standard high,
Within its shade we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here


Come the revolution comrades all shall be equal, we the workers shall rise up and throw of the yoke of capitalist oppression and we will stand before the glory of the new Democratic Peoples Republic of Britannia. Until then people will be paid what the market will bear and what their skills allow them to earn.
 
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jon0844

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thats like saying people pirate films/music because the labels make stacks of money - they dont, they do it because they can. And will.

But they too will use that as their excuse, which is partly to convince themselves that what they're doing isn't really wrong. In fact, they should be applauded as they're making a protest. Despite the fact that if prices came down, they'd still pirate stuff as free will always be better than paying something.

Okay, maybe there would be a tiny percentage that would pay - but probably more for the convenience than anything else. It's easier to get stuff on, say, Spotify than hunt around the net - but a lot of people will still take the time over paying.

I can say this as someone who has illegally downloaded stuff many years ago, but now working in media has obviously come to realise that you're not fooling anyone with such arguments.
 
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Jordeh

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He's on a salary of over £600,000 and railway men and women left right and centre are being made redundant. He's on more than the Prime Minister!! He should take a pay cut down to £300,000 at least and the money saved should be used to save jobs!!!! Rant over!
Is it even true the railway industry is making people redundant left, right and centre? I've certainly not heard of any large job losses at Network Rail. Also, there's quite a significant number of people being paid more than the prime minister in this country (Around £125k I believe?). Take any premier league footballer for instance.

I'd be a lot more concerned if they were paying an inexperienced idiot a low wage to preside over a vital piece of the country's infrastructure and billions of pounds of budgets. Potentially in future years we would be talking about billions being wasted as opposed to spending a few hundred thousand more on a CEO's salary. Put into context the spending of Network Rail, his salary really is quite an insignificant figure.
 

jon0844

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Surely a lot of 'normal' staff are paid pretty well within NR. Should they get pay cuts or is it okay when it's not management?
 

TheKnightWho

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Surely a lot of 'normal' staff are paid pretty well within NR. Should they get pay cuts or is it okay when it's not management?

Ah, but they earn money through 'real' work, not 'pencil pushing', as though somehow logistics and management isn't vital to making sure things actually function...
 

Muzer

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But they too will use that as their excuse, which is partly to convince themselves that what they're doing isn't really wrong. In fact, they should be applauded as they're making a protest. Despite the fact that if prices came down, they'd still pirate stuff as free will always be better than paying something.

Okay, maybe there would be a tiny percentage that would pay - but probably more for the convenience than anything else. It's easier to get stuff on, say, Spotify than hunt around the net - but a lot of people will still take the time over paying.

I can say this as someone who has illegally downloaded stuff many years ago, but now working in media has obviously come to realise that you're not fooling anyone with such arguments.
Indeed - people pirate all sorts of things, indie games, even "pay what you want" games (so they'd rather pirate than pay $0.01...)
 

IanD

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Which fares have gone up 20% in three years?

London Midland Great Escape tickets (50%), Southern Daysave (27%?) and Southern Downlanders (32%) all spring to mind. :D

We've had (I think) average fare rises of 6% and 6% for the last 2 years and then 4% next year so I would imagine it's likely that some real fares will have gone up by 20% come Januray 2014.
 

Bald Rick

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London Midland Great Escape tickets (50%), Southern Daysave (27%?) and Southern Downlanders (32%) all spring to mind. :D

We've had (I think) average fare rises of 6% and 6% for the last 2 years and then 4% next year so I would imagine it's likely that some real fares will have gone up by 20% come Januray 2014.

That depends on the definition of 'real'. The economist's definition is as in 'real terms' which means after inflation* has been allowed for. Given that fare rises have been pegged at RPI+1%, it woułd be pretty difficult to get 'real' fare rises of 20% in 3 years.

(* no quibbles about CPI vs RPI).
 

yorksrob

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Ah, but they earn money through 'real' work, not 'pencil pushing', as though somehow logistics and management isn't vital to making sure things actually function...

There‘s not really any comparison though. Train drivers, for example, may be on comfortable salaries, but that‘s hardly the same as the boardroom cliques already on six figure salaries, who award themselves (sorry - get rewarded by their remuneration committees :lol:) pay increases way above what their employees are getting.
 

IanD

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That depends on the definition of 'real'. The economist's definition is as in 'real terms' which means after inflation* has been allowed for. Given that fare rises have been pegged at RPI+1%, it woułd be pretty difficult to get 'real' fare rises of 20% in 3 years.

(* no quibbles about CPI vs RPI).

By real fares I meant point to point fares or seasons rather than TOC specific special fares that can be set at any arbitrary figure that the TOC chooses.

As for 'real terms' - few people complaining about fare rises take inflation in to consideration. Most just look at the absolute figure which, if a fare had risen by the average for the last 2 years and then rises by the average in January 2014, would be approximately 16.5% over that period. So, a 20% rise in absolute terms is not beyond the realms of possibility.
 
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