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Network Rail Recommends 80% of the network should be electrified by 2050

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GRALISTAIR

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What's needed is for the govt to say to NR "OK, we accept that there is going to need to be a steady flow of projects over the next couple of decades. Go away, set up two or three electrification project teams which can produce a steady flow of individual projects, delivering say, approx. 30 miles each year per team on average. Provided the costs remain reasonable and you don't suggest anything off the wall, we'll commit to funding these projects." Three such teams would deliver around 1000 route miles each decade. North, Central and South would appear to be a logical split.

Agreed but North, Central, South, Scotland and even Wales - possibly part of Central.
 
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Brissle Girl

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Scotland is effectively devolved, and seems to have it's own intentions to increase it's proportion of electrification. As for Wales, I would suggest the South team would start by completing some unfinished business on the GW network, including to Swansea. Beyond that, I doubt much of Wales would be included in the first 1000 miles, with the exception of some more of the South Wales metro, which again is effectively devolved.

Of course, you can always make cases for many lines, but in the first decade I would expect the emphasis to be on those which offer the best carbon return.
 

route:oxford

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Surely Network Rail, as a massive landowner, have the opportunity to become the UK's biggest solar power generator?

It wouldn't be practical everywhere, but there could be a silvery snake of solar panels above railway lines throughout the country. Who's going to complain too much about anonymous sheds alongside railway lines containing banks of Tesla style batteries.

In central London, an overhead map shows acres of overhead space that could be used to generate power.

Even here in Scotland, whilst we suffer long dark nights in Winter, there's up to 18 hours of daylight at this time of year that could be sourced from a solar snake running from Inverness to Wick/Thurso.

Indeed, if you are simply looking at net Carbon Return on a dual solar and electrification project, I suspect the Far North Line would offer the greatest return of all. Few trains and lots of generated power.
 

py_megapixel

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Surely Network Rail, as a massive landowner, have the opportunity to become the UK's biggest solar power generator?

It wouldn't be practical everywhere, but there could be a silvery snake of solar panels above railway lines throughout the country. Who's going to complain too much about anonymous sheds alongside railway lines containing banks of Tesla style batteries.

In central London, an overhead map shows acres of overhead space that could be used to generate power.

Even here in Scotland, whilst we suffer long dark nights in Winter, there's up to 18 hours of daylight at this time of year that could be sourced from a solar snake running from Inverness to Wick/Thurso.

Indeed, if you are simply looking at net Carbon Return on a dual solar and electrification project, I suspect the Far North Line would offer the greatest return of all. Few trains and lots of generated power.
That's an intruiging possibility. I don't know how the various authorities would feel about a snaking line of solar panels cutting through the Scottish Highlands however.
 
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Surely Network Rail, as a massive landowner, have the opportunity to become the UK's biggest solar power generator?
There is a trial going on already near Aldershot :
"South Western Railway (SWR) is due to host a pilot project to find a way to channel power directly from solar panels into the rail network."
 

AM9

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Re the interconnectors.

There’s three under construction now:

1MW to France (IFA2) - completes next year
1.4MW to Norway (North Sea Link) - completes next year
1.4MW to Denmark (Viking Link) - completes 2023 ...

Those three together wouldn't even power a class 700. Shouldn't they be 1GW, 1.4GW and 1.4GW respectively. :)
 

higthomas

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Re the interconnectors.

There’s three under construction now:

1MW to France (IFA2) - completes next year
1.4MW to Norway (North Sea Link) - completes next year
1.4MW to Denmark (Viking Link) - completes 2023

The Iceland link is unlikely.

More likely are further links to France - another is a long way through the development process Aquind, 2MW.

Norway doesn’t have much (any?) in the way of pumped storage ‘hydro batteries’. Denmark doesn’t have any significant hydro at all, but does have a lot of installed wind power (although not as much as the U.K.), and also a lot of fossil fuelled plants. France has loads of nuclear, as well as a fair bit of wind, hydro and pumped storage.

The purpose of the interconnectors is so that we can export our excess wind energy to these countries such that they don’t need to use so much of their hydro and fossil fuelled plants. Then when it’s not windy here, we will make use of their hydro / nuclear / wind etc.

There have been several times this spring where it has been sufficiently windy and sunny that wind farms have been paid to not generate electricity and the whole sale price of electricity has gone negative. Indeed the average wholesale price of U.K. electricity for the last three months has been £25/MWh, which is astonishingly low, and less than half the average price for the year 2018. Some of this has been because oil and gas prices have collapsed due to the virus, but much is also because it has been sunny and windy in that period.

The new interconnectors are important because there is another 4GW of wind capacity under construction which will be in service in the next couple of years, and a further 10GW consented but yet to start construction. It’s reasonable to assume at least half of this will be generating by 2026; on windy and sunny days by then we will have something like 10GW of excess electricity to export, assuming electric cars aren’t sucking all that up (which is quite possible).

I think you meant GW for the capacity of the various inter-connectors. Otherwise they would make a negligible difference compared to the GW under construction.

(Thanks for the detailed and informative post BTW)
 

Mikey C

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It's an amazing (and pleasing thought) that we could be soon be exporting excess green energy to Scandinavia.
 

Mikey C

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The 80s/early 90s actually showed how a sensible electrification programme should be run, with a steady and continuous programme of OHLE and 3rd rail schemes, filling in silly gaps.

Some quite significant schemes too apart from the main ECML. Cambridge to King's Lynn for example may have been done on the cheap, but still was quite ambitious for a relatively unimportant route. Maybe if bimodes had been available in the 1980s, that scheme would have been Graylinged!
 

Energy

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The 80s/early 90s actually showed how a sensible electrification programme should be run, with a steady and continuous programme of OHLE and 3rd rail schemes, filling in silly gaps.

Some quite significant schemes too apart from the main ECML. Cambridge to King's Lynn for example may have been done on the cheap, but still was quite ambitious for a relatively unimportant route. Maybe if bimodes had been available in the 1980s, that scheme would have been Graylinged!
However I wouldn't call the quality of OHLE excellent, look at how many times the WCML wiring comes down compared to HS1...
 

Brissle Girl

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The 80s/early 90s actually showed how a sensible electrification programme should be run, with a steady and continuous programme of OHLE and 3rd rail schemes, filling in silly gaps.

Some quite significant schemes too apart from the main ECML. Cambridge to King's Lynn for example may have been done on the cheap, but still was quite ambitious for a relatively unimportant route. Maybe if bimodes had been available in the 1980s, that scheme would have been Graylinged!
Indeed, as well as the ECML, there was the electrification of the two routes from the south into Cambridge and onwards to Kings Lynn, Norwich, Ayr, Hastings, Weymouth, East Grinstead, Skipton/Bradford and the Cross City Line in Birmingham. All authorised under a Conservative (Thatcher) government which is generally remembered as starving the railways of investment. Oh, and the Channel Tunnel was started too, for an encore.

Yes the ECML was done on the cheap, but it was done, and the rolling stock introduced wasn't too expensive and was generally well considered by passengers. The GWML in contrast was vastly over-engineered, nearly killed the electrification agenda in the UK, and the rolling stock procured is eye-wateringly expensive, and has had what can at best be described as a mixed reception by passengers.
 

Bald Rick

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Surely Network Rail, as a massive landowner, have the opportunity to become the UK's biggest solar power generator?

It wouldn't be practical everywhere, but there could be a silvery snake of solar panels above railway lines throughout the country. Who's going to complain too much about anonymous sheds alongside railway lines containing banks of Tesla style batteries.

In central London, an overhead map shows acres of overhead space that could be used to generate power.

Even here in Scotland, whilst we suffer long dark nights in Winter, there's up to 18 hours of daylight at this time of year that could be sourced from a solar snake running from Inverness to Wick/Thurso.

Indeed, if you are simply looking at net Carbon Return on a dual solar and electrification project, I suspect the Far North Line would offer the greatest return of all. Few trains and lots of generated power.

Suggest you do some reserch on the economics of solar generation, and work it out. There’s a reason why solar farms aren’t being built anymore. Particularly in Scotland, where solar energy received ‘on the panel’ is very low due to weather and latitude. The ‘experiment’ near Aldershot was merely a PR exercise, in my personal opinion.

Those three together wouldn't even power a class 700. Shouldn't they be 1GW, 1.4GW and 1.4GW respectively. :)

Very good point! Will amend.


It's an amazing (and pleasing thought) that we could be soon be exporting excess green energy to Scandinavia.

We already regularly export excess green energy to France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Ireland. We’re sending some to NL right now. We were sending 1-2GW to France for most of the last Bank Holiday weekend too.
 
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Mikey C

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Indeed, as well as the ECML, there was the electrification of the two routes from the south into Cambridge and onwards to Kings Lynn, Norwich, Ayr, Hastings, Weymouth, East Grinstead, Skipton/Bradford and the Cross City Line in Birmingham. All authorised under a Conservative (Thatcher) government which is generally remembered as starving the railways of investment. Oh, and the Channel Tunnel was started too, for an encore.

Yes the ECML was done on the cheap, but it was done, and the rolling stock introduced wasn't too expensive and was generally well considered by passengers. The GWML in contrast was vastly over-engineered, nearly killed the electrification agenda in the UK, and the rolling stock procured is eye-wateringly expensive, and has had what can at best be described as a mixed reception by passengers.
BR seemed to be very good at doing things to a tight budget/on the cheap.

Yes it might not have been ideal, e.g. the low budget Weymouth electrification without enough power to run long trains and having to reuse old traction motors, but it got it done, when a "Rolls-Royce" scheme would never have been approved
 

D365

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... and has had what can at best be described as a mixed reception by passengers.

The electrified GWML had a mixed reaction?? It’s enabled far longer trains on the Thames Valley, for one thing. Although other than that, I’m not sure what you were expecting passengers to get excited by.
 

Brissle Girl

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The electrified GWML had a mixed reaction?? It’s enabled far longer trains on the Thames Valley, for one thing. Although other than that, I’m not sure what you were expecting passengers to get excited by.
I was thinking of the IET's, not the local services. Probably best that we don't let this thread degenerate into another discussion as to the pros and cons of those trains though!
 

class26

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I was thinking of the IET's, not the local services. Probably best that we don't let this thread degenerate into another discussion as to the pros and cons of those trains though!
Just to note there is a very interesting article in June`s Modern Railways re the procurement of the IEP and how the DFT basically got it wrong. Worth reading.
 

Brissle Girl

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Just to note there is a very interesting article in June`s Modern Railways re the procurement of the IEP and how the DFT basically got it wrong. Worth reading.
Indeed, it was in the back of my mind when I made the comment.
 

route:oxford

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Suggest you do some reserch on the economics of solar generation, and work it out. There’s a reason why solar farms aren’t being built anymore. Particularly in Scotland, where solar energy received ‘on the panel’ is very low due to weather and latitude. The ‘experiment’ near Aldershot was merely a PR exercise, in my personal opinion.

The UK's biggest solar farm has just been approved in Kent, with a 350MW capacity over 900 acres.

So, thinking of HS1, which is about 100km and 20 metres wide, that's almost 200 Megawatts of energy available on a nice sunny day.

So,unless I'm getting very confused with watt-hours and watts (which is very likely as the sources are newspapers so may also be wrong), that's enough capacity to power 12 Eurostars.
.
 

Energy

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The UK's biggest solar farm has just been approved in Kent, with a 350MW capacity over 900 acres.

So, thinking of HS1, which is about 100km and 20 metres wide, that's almost 200 Megawatts of energy available on a nice sunny day.

So,unless I'm getting very confused with watt-hours and watts (which is very likely as the sources are newspapers so may also be wrong), that's enough capacity to power 12 Eurostars.
.
350MW for 900 acres doesn't sound too much to be honest. Also we can put solar panels over the top of high speed one easily as the weight would require more support than the current OHLE posts could support and of couse tunnels. A lot also goes into making solar panels...

I would have a look at the solar road proposals which have been around for a while, very few have been built (1 in Europe and I think 1 in America) as they are expensive and don't produce much.
 

Mikey C

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I was thinking of the IET's, not the local services. Probably best that we don't let this thread degenerate into another discussion as to the pros and cons of those trains though!
Without trying to go too off topic I hope, if you look at how electrification was done elsewhere (e.g. out of STP, Kings Cross and the West Anglia lines out of Liverpool Street), what was bizarre was HOW long it took to electrify the local services out of Paddington, as if they'd repeated what happened with the Bedpan scheme in the late 70s, they'd have had EMUs for the commuter services 20 years ago (keeping IC125s for the Inter City ones) instead of buying the Network Turbos.
 

southern442

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Electric road vehicles are a much larger challenge.

Even with clean electricity it comes down to the old argument again. Public transport is so much more efficient. A fully loaded diesel passenger train will always be greener than the equivalent amount of people travelling by car. I'm no huge expert but it seems to me as though the same problem comes up with electric cars and the like. We would be better off not bothering with electric cars and instead massively expanding sustainable public transport.
 

Domh245

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So, thinking of HS1, which is about 100km and 20 metres wide, that's almost 200 Megawatts of energy available on a nice sunny day.

So,unless I'm getting very confused with watt-hours and watts (which is very likely as the sources are newspapers so may also be wrong), that's enough capacity to power 12 Eurostars.

HS1 is for the most part nowhere near 20m wide - a few spot measurements in google maps suggests around 15m 'boundary fence to boundary fence' is the typical best case (ie south of ebbsfleet when running alongside the M20) but often as little as 10m. Don't forget that a not inconsiderable distance of HS1 is also in tunnel - so you've gone from 20mx100km to 12.5mx84.8km assuming that everywhere that isn't tunnel gets a solar panel 'roof'

Also bear in mind that HS1 (and any other railway) being a railway isn't a perfectly oriented east-west line, so you can't achieve nearly the same optimum install that you can with a solar farm - on any north south line you'll have to space them out quite a bit to ensure that they do all get some sun, and any line that isn't running in a cardinal direction you'll have to start putting them wherever you can fit them, but massively down on what could be achieved on a farm. Lets say it's about 75% the efficiency of the farm - a completely uneducated guess, which I feel if anything would be an overestimate as I'm going to ignore things like cuttings which can leave bits of the railway in permanent shade!

So 'solar' HS1 is now down to about 261 acres operating at 75% of the efficiency of Cleve Hill means there's now a peak generation of 76MW, or almost 5 e320s. During last year's summer timetable, between 1200 and 1300 Eurostar had at least 5 trains on HS1, so you are only just about to generate enough for the Eurostar service, assuming that it's the sunniest day of the year and they aren't all at full power at the same time. And that's before considering SouthEastern services.
 

GRALISTAIR

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350MW for 900 acres doesn't sound too much to be honest. Also we can put solar panels over the top of high speed one easily as the weight would require more support than the current OHLE posts could support and of couse tunnels. A lot also goes into making solar panels...

I would have a look at the solar road proposals which have been around for a while, very few have been built (1 in Europe and I think 1 in America) as they are expensive and don't produce much.
Just imagine how many nukes you could get on that amount of land. Power density.
 

Energy

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Just imagine how many nukes you could get on that amount of land. Power density.
Yeah, the average US nuclear power plant makes about 1GW (US was the data I found) and that will take less than 900 acres.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Yeah, the average US nuclear power plant makes about 1GW (US was the data I found) and that will take less than 900 acres.
Yes but even more stark than that. A nuke can run 24 hours so that is 24GWhours

Lets be generous and say the solar farm runs for 10 hours every single day all year round loads of sunlight = 350x 10 = 3500MWhours = 3.5GWhours

No comparison
 
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A fully loaded diesel passenger train will always be greener than the equivalent amount of people travelling by car. I'm no huge expert but it seems to me as though the same problem comes up with electric cars and the like. We would be better off not bothering with electric cars and instead massively expanding sustainable public transport.
Except the diesel train will never get all those people, and their luggage, to the vast majority of the places people need or want to go. Most people would not consider themselves better off having to use public transport, so I'm afraid the car is here to stay, much to the disappointment of some rail enthusiasts.
 

southern442

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Except the diesel train will never get all those people, and their luggage, to the vast majority of the places people need or want to go. Most people would not consider themselves better off having to use public transport, so I'm afraid the car is here to stay, much to the disappointment of some rail enthusiasts.

That much is surely true. Ultimately we should try to expand and maximise the number of people using public transport, but of course as you say we will never be able to be totally rid of personal vehicles. Nevertheless I think it would be a much better idea from a sustainability point of view to try all we can to maximise the number of people switching over from cars to railways, rather than focusing on turning all cars green.
 
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Nevertheless I think it would be a much better idea from a sustainability point of view to try all we can to maximise the number of people switching over from cars to railways, rather than focusing on turning all cars green.
Absolutely, it must always be remembered how much material goes into manufacturing cars, which last for a short period, and how much space they take up for storage. It is likely that people are more inclined to give up their car to use an environmentally friendly electric train or tram, so I hope NR achieve their ambition.
 

ChiefPlanner

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The problem at the moment is that each investment decision is painfully slow, with several steps. A good example is that even now, there hasn't been formal approval for the knitting to extend as far as Market Harborough - that decision will be taken once the detailed design work is completed, and there even had to be a decision to let NR go ahead with the detailed design work. How can you plan an efficient use of resources on that basis?

What's needed is for the govt to say to NR "OK, we accept that there is going to need to be a steady flow of projects over the next couple of decades. Go away, set up two or three electrification project teams which can produce a steady flow of individual projects, delivering say, approx. 30 miles each year per team on average. Provided the costs remain reasonable and you don't suggest anything off the wall, we'll commit to funding these projects." Three such teams would deliver around 1000 route miles each decade. North, Central and South would appear to be a logical split.

There would clearly need to be some involvement with govt to ensure that the schemes selected were appropriate, particularly in the context of rolling stock requirements for the routes in question.

The GRIP process slows everything down IMHO (and provides lots of work for some office types) - accept there has to be some process.

I recall a direct JFDI instruction being given to the WCRM team to wire Crewe - Kidsgrove pre 2004 - which was done very sensibly , quickly and at a good outurn price. Obviously some paperwork was done for the records. A most useful infill job.

Mentioned this before - but Windermere - Oxenholme was approved and nearly delivered in BR days , as a certain manager did some wicket rolling , waited for a head honcho to go on leave , and whisked the authority through quickly. (about £750K at the time - and resources were more or less available) - regrettably "Head Honcho" stopped it on his return.....
 

si404

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I would have a look at the solar road proposals which have been around for a while, very few have been built (1 in Europe and I think 1 in America) as they are expensive and don't produce much.
Don't recommend looking into those silly ideas! It just gets people more excited about wasting solar panels on dumb implementations and they get less able to think critically and rational about optimising usage of photovoltaics.
 
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